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Everything posted by Mercurious

  1. It's from Indianopolis, IND, Market Square Arena, 25 January 1975. Ever been to Indiana? You'd be slugging Jack too if you had to spend much time in Indy. Apologies in advance if you're from Indiana
  2. Fair enough (or not fair to Clayson in particular) but I'm done with it. Russo, whom you worked with, continues to list Luton 7/7/68 as the final show (pgs. 123 & 239) as do Platt (1983); Davis (1985); Welch (2002) -- he apparently didn't put much stock in Grant's non-recollection, as he states Luton as the last date anyway; Clayson (2007) - has association with McCarty, Dreja and the Relfs, describes opening band, weather, Keith botching lyrics, Chris slipping bass runs; and more recently Wall (2010) - Wall even takes creative license and puts Grant at the show; and Martin Power (2016). With Jim backing them all up there's no call to take this any further.
  3. Are you saying McCarty and Clayson are lying? For you to be right, Clayson would have had to lie in a book he wrote, for no apparent reason. Is that what you're saying? "Believe me" -- if you do anything rotten to the Yardbirds page, please do it to the Eric Clapton section, not to the Beck or Page sections, and certainly not to the 1992-to present sections (which appear to be written by people who were in those bands or associated with them etc). In any case, where did you get the idea an encyclopedic website is supposed to be good enough for scholarly research? And who cares about scholarly research in rock & roll? We're not discussing a cure for cancer or the impeachment of Trump here. Or even a simple county budget item. And are you now saying that Jimmy says he did not play that date? If you know something, please tell us. If it's something like "Jimmy says he didn't play" that's good enough, and much better than the vacuum you've presented so far, which, with all due respect, hasn't been good enough to upend anything McCarty said or Clayson wrote. If you're the person responsible for the "unconfirmed" citation in Jimmy's book, are you then saying Jimmy said he didn't play that show?
  4. Maybe, but Ronnie Wood doesn't have at least three biographers -- Russo, Clayson and Power (No Quarter: The Three Lives of Jimmy Page). plus other book sources, confirming his statement. McCarty does. Clayson's even given readers a Luton weather report and an opening band. And Jimmy says the two Montgomery (Ala.) Speedway shows were the last Yardbirds performances "in the USA" -- not the final, curtain-closing shows. That's a preponderance of support for Jim's confirmation that the Luton show went on. Everybody could be wrong or mistaken, but Jim says they played the gig. Not necessarily true, but you certainly could because you care about the Yardbirds, you can probably back up any changes you might make, you're not going to vandalize our Yardbirds pages and you'll stick to the wikipedia good faith rules (I assume so, anyway). I deleted the note about Grant's doubts about the Luton gig from the text but would be willing to make a reference note about it, or you can. Cheers! I think it should be taken on good faith that no one is making things up or has weird motivations - not McCarty, Grant, Page, Clayson or any of us. I also agree with Steve up to a certain point. Chris Welch, Grant's biographer, should have done some leg work on this and nailed it down if he was going to publish doubts that all preceding biographers and sources were wrong about the show happening. But he didn't, this isn't criminal court, there's no "beyond a reasonable doubt" test in biography and until Jimmy or Chris steps forward to say yea or nay, I'll take the drummers word for it.
  5. Plant in the 1980s. Page in the 1990s-2000 with Coverdale, Plant, Puff-Daddy (Platinum single) and the Black Crowes, plus all the work on the remasters. Jones in the 'aughts thru 2010 and beyond. Interesting how this has played out.
  6. Anybody have a Luton library card?
  7. McCarty says he played the gig. McCarty is also a key source for Clayson. That's hardly hearsay. Good enough for the news, for biographical purposes and for the wikipedia page. If anyone has a line to Jimmy or Chris, one may just want a send a note.
  8. Ozone baby and Living Loving Maid would be good songs for bands not Led Zeppelin. Darlene would be my 3rd, not on the list. Hot Dog also deserves every vote it got. Very surprised that Hats Off and Carouselambra were even on this list, much less getting the most votes. Recount!
  9. Don't have anything that good, but I did find the relevant passage in Clayson's book The Yardbirds (Backbeat Books, 2002, pg. 118) Clayson wrote: "Supported by the otherwise unsung Lynton Grae Sound, the Yardbirds downed tools as a working band on 7th July 1968, a drizzling Sunday evening. In the inauspicious setting of Luton Technical College, they'd run through this final evensong any old how; Keith forgetting words and Chris fluffing one or two bass runs while Jimmy tried to make a show of it." (LINK to book PAGE, hope it works). OK, understood that Jim McCarty might be source of that passage, but we have detail of an opening band, at least, and a weather report. Then there's this detail on Page's "On this day" feature about the 1 June 1968 Shrine Expo Hall show in L.A. -- "This was not the last date of the US tour, we had two more dates, both at the Montgomery International Speedway in Alabama, before the curtains would close on this incarnation of the Yardbirds in the USA." (My italics added). This implies that the curtain wasn't yet closed outside of the USA. No, Page's note isn't direct confirmation, but it does suggest at least one more performance for the band. Put it all together: Jim, Clayson, the mention of the opening band, and a nod from Jimmy, and I think it's enough to say the show 7 July 1968 in dreary Luton did go on.
  10. No problem! Love doing research! Only thing is, now I have to go back into wikipedia and let ojorojo know that he/she was right all along and that I did put undue weight on Grant's memory. And how frustrating this must have been for Page, to go back and play one last show in the suburbs (or wherever bedfordshire is) only to have McCarty and Relf refuse to do the ulltimate London show - the all-night multi-media performance scheduled at the Middle Earth club on the 12th of July. That show could have been legendary, one last farewell to London but, apparently they refused and Grant had to instead get the "it's really over now" press release out. So much wasted potential in the Yardbirds.
  11. Jim adds that he doesn't know why Grant would not remember: "Perhaps he had a memory lapse." Case solved.
  12. STOP THE PRESSES!! 45 minutes ago, Jim McCarty messaged me back today via facebook and confirmed the July 7 show did in fact happen. I'll follow up to ask if there is any specific reason Grant might not remember it, but there we have it from one of the three living band members.
  13. Well we just had the Thunderbirds release in April. Next up, he's been saying, is the Yardbirds project which I'm sure will involve "Knowing that I'm Losing You" (the original Tangerine) as well as "Spanish Blood", "Avron Knows", "Think About It", and hopefully a few things no one has heard yet (at least that's what he said). Anderson Theater is something Steve and others have mentioned, but weren't the masters destroyed in the 1970s? There are better shows -- both nights at the Shrine in L.A. 5/31 and 6/1 1968 are better than Anderson. Maybe he has others? Of course anything having to do with the Yardbirds involves Jim and Chris and Jane Relf, I would think. I'm really looking forward to this, as the world needs one last definitive Yardbirds statement, one that reflects the incredible album that should have happened in 1968 but did not. Of Course, Led Zeppelin I represented about half of what it would have been and then some, but every germ of complete-ist nature says there's historical imperative for the whole album - plus some live things. Fingers crossed!
  14. Doug - I've been trying to verify the alleged July 7, 1968 Luton College, Bedfordshire, gig. I will see what I can find in Clayson's Yardbirds book, but was wondering if you knew the original source/circumstances that led to 7/7/68 being on the performances lists in the first place. ?? Also, if there was an appearance by Yardbirds, is it possible that this was more related to the Together Now sessions Relf and McCarty were recording that week with Paul Samwell-Smith? (the day before, actually). Thanks in advance for helping to clear this up!!
  15. Yes, Russo very pro-Yardbirds, which is why I think McCarty and Relf may have done something at Luton - maybe had a cup of coffee? I sent messages to McCarty on facebook and on his Jim McCarty & Co youtube page in hopes of getting to the bottom of this. As one who is close to "the other end of the spectrum" on the Yardbirds, I see them as inventing British psychedelia, furthering the development of American punk rock (the Stooges and the MC5) and walking arm and arm with the Velvet Undergound in creating art-skronk noise aesthetic. Whether they could ever have rivaled the Beatles, I doubt it. They were on the same label as the Fab Four and what did EMI do? They cut the yardbirds balls off and sabotaged the seminal "Happenings Ten Years Time Ago"/"Psycho Daisies" single. To quote the late great Lester Bangs: "The Yardbirds changed EVERYTHING." ... and he wrote that referring to the 1965 single "I'm A Man" which wasn't even released in the UK.
  16. Yes, Grant is hoping they reconsider. That's what it feels like, anyway. To have scheduled the Middle Earth gig July 12 for London OZ issue No. 13, he would have had to do so in early June, so Grant was still scheduling things even though the band was breaking up. He had also scheduled US dates for September, though they never take place, and quickly reschedules the Scandinavian tour once they got back to London and reissued the press release that they were breaking up and Page and Dreja were going ahead with things. The London press release announcing both the break-up and the Scandinavian tour happens July 8-9 according to Michael Organ's great chronicle of the Yardbirds' final year. Obviously they were in no shape to play the Middle Earth gig, so there really is no reason to believe they played at Luton except for the odd fact that so many sources before Russo said they did. I find Jimmy's choice of words interesting here: Jimmy Page: 01 June 1968 - "I had my last rave up in LA with the Yardbirds. This was the last time the four live Yardbirds would play Los Angeles. The intrepid warriors played the Shrine Auditorium on this day in 1968. This was not the last date of the US tour, we had two more dates, both at the Montgomery International Speedway in Alabama, before the curtains would close on this incarnation of the Yardbirds in the USA." So Jimmy on his own website specified the curtains closing on Relf and McCarty and the Yardbirds "in the USA", which suggests there was some U.K. activity after the Montgomery, ALA, shows. Why can't we find any evidence of this Luton college show? Jimmy is also quoted in NY BEFORE they return to London saying "We decided before the tour that we would split up at the end." I just don't see any acknowledgement in mid-June (the story below in GO magazine, NY, was published June 21, so Page talked to reporters in NY mid-June before heading back to London) that there are UK dates to complete:
  17. Yes Russo lists both the skipped date 3/16/68 that 76229 mentioned and the 7/7/68 gig. He also lists all yardbirds recording sessions, and it's interesting to note that Relf and McCarty were at Abbey Road w/ Paul Samwell-Smith the day before this mysterious Luton gig recording Together Now tracks. If there was a Luton show it may not have involved Page, Dreja or Grant, which may be why Grant doesn't remember it. Can't delete it from Wikipedia, though - the date has a book source citation so had to leave it and just work around. "Critics of the Yardbirds significance", eh? No doubt Beatles fans and historians refusing to believe that British psychedelia was not started by the Beatles, or Led Zep haters? The yardbirds problem at home was getting paid - EMI's refusal to release Greatest Hits or Little Games or doing any work for Little Games/Puzzles or Happenings Ten Years Time Ago/Psycho Daisies showed how limited and controlled the British market was, and EMI's resources were certainly tied up in Beatles product. EMI killed the yardbirds in the record stores and there were few good paying gigs, but they could always get them, especially in the US where the money was. Ridiculous and convoluted to think a single date was invented to prove anything - and McCarty appears to be the source of the gig info, not Page or Grant. Grant could always find gigs - he had them booked at Middle Earth Club on July 12 ... according to June issue of OZ magazine ... Middle Earth looks like the place to be in psychedelic London with Pink Floyd and the Move on the schedule in June... SOURCE Yardbirds cancelled of course.
  18. Russo has Dreja going up to Birmingham with Page and Grant to see Plant sing on July 20, and then only to find himself out of the loop in the weeks after that. He didn't know about Clem Cattini being approached, he didn't know about Jones or Bonham, either, so Page was moving a lot faster than Dreja knew between July 20 and the week of Aug. 12 when they rehearsed. Cold feet or did Page freeze him out knowing he had JPJ in the fold? Maybe a little of both.
  19. The Luton date on the 7th is one day after Relf and McCarty's Together Now recording sessions at Abbey Road. I am beginning to believe this Luton gig was Together Now, not managed by Grant, so he wouldn't have been in on it. Here's Grant's full comment on the Yardbirds last show: Peter Grant (1994): Well, as I recall, we never played a gig after that American tour, so in reality it fell apart in America. Jim McCarty wasn't in the best of health and we had to use a session man. We had a club date in the States for $5,000. That was a lot of money. Jimmy wanted to do it and so did Chris, but the others didn't. There was a big row in a Holiday Inn. So I drafted out a letter giving Jimmy the rights to the name, which they all signed. [Q: So you don't remember the gig at Luton?] No, I can't remember that. What I can remember distinctly is driving Jimmy around Shaftesbury Avenue near the Saville Theatre after the split..." (Source: Chris Welch, Peter Grant: The Man Who Led Zeppelin). On this forum Steve asked way back in 2008 for pre-Zep info about gigs, etc., and has never found a scrap confirming a Yardbirds Luton gig in 1968. Grant can't remember it happening. Yet we have Russo's authorized biography that says a show did happen 7 July 1968 and Together Now recording sessions the day before. Short of Jim McCarthy messaging me back to say they DID play, I'm going to say that there was no full fledged Yardbirds show on the 7th and that if there was anything at Luton it was former Yardbirds Relf and McCarty playing their new material. Based on Page's comments in the press in New York mid-June, it was over for the old Yardbirds - Relf and McCarty were out and he was talking about his vision for a new band. This was published in GO Magazine in June.
  20. Russo talks about Paul Francis on pgs. 124-127 (looking at them now) and refers to him as "the unknown Paul Francis". Amazon Look Inside Link. There were a couple of articles in the British press about Francis being the guy, and Francis says Dreja called him in July and basically said he had the job if he wanted it but Francis had to go to Germany for two weeks. He gets back in early August and talks to Dreja but by then Jonesy was in the picture and Francis says Dreja was having trouble getting ahold of Page. So the source is Russo (I'll add it to the wikipage. Russo's book is listed as a source on the bottom but I'll cite that sentence, which is all from Russo). Ginger Baker? I never heard that either. I really hate wikipedia Vandals!!
  21. Oh man, that is my favorite part of the movie, a monumental moment in the history of noise music, the key to the noisescape, a moment one that has changed many a punk art person's perception about Led Zep. Jimmy should have left it on the album, so it's a frustrating thing to think, well, what if he had left it on? Wouldn't it have changed hundreds and hundreds of guitar players, if not thousands? I think so -- everybody who I ever played that for instantly changes whatever notions they had about the band, and about Page's guitar vision.
  22. Done.
  23. Buckley, Peter (ed.) (2003). The Rough Guide to Rock, p. 1198. ISBN 1-84353-105-4. This would be the source of the Luton College gig. I have no idea what's on P. 1198. ANybody have this book? Note: 1198 is in the google preview, and it just states the questionable date as their final show. This forum and Steve are the better sources, imo.
  24. Oh man, the silver sparkle kit question. This originates from the anti-Vistalite crowd, doesn't it? I'm not getting into that!! Jim McCarty would be the one to ask, I think. But simple enough to mention that Grant doesn't recall Luton, and raise the question on the wiki pages. Yardbirds band members have worked on those wiki pages in the past, especially regarding information about Chris and Jim's more recent bands, as far as who was in the band with them and when, etc.