Discrepency over Black Mountain Side / Blackwaterside claims

[Barry Bynum]

My understanding of the thing is that Jimmy along with many budding guitarists of the times loved to visit and soak up what was happening in the folk clubs.I have heard and met Bert (truly nice chap he seemed to be) and a friend of mine knew him quite well. Like some others have said here what was "recorded" is only half the story on originality etc. I'm told there was a lot of exchange and cross-pollenisation between many of these artists. Page himself would give great credit to Bert for influence and for showing him some things. Just because other young pups at the time were learning from Bert and a few others, doesn't really nail down "who was first" or whatever. Who cares!!!! Really does it matter that much? almost all the rock and blues players were affecting one another, and the folk/fingerstyle guys were affecting the rock guys who wanted to learn more and branch out. It was just a special time and there was lots of absorbing going on. Just enjoy the fun and music and art of it y'all. I know it's not wonderful to not get paid properly by your label or management, or for someone to get recog for something they maybe emulated. If we follw that thought all the way down then lets just all give our money to Chuck Berry, Howlin Wolf, and Woody Guthrie. Bless you guys... ----Barry

Edited July 2, 2014 by Barry Bynum

[Uncle Willie]

There is no way that two individual guitarists would come up with the same iconic guitar part for an a cappella melody. It is not only implausible, it is impossible. The same hammer-ons and pull-offs and the chord shifts suggest one originator. That is why lyrics and arrangements are two separate credits on the same song. The fact that Jansch listed it as a Trad song does not take away from the gifted arrangement of the piece and one that was honed from playing it live. Such a captivating piece would prick up the ears of any guitarist. The fact that it appeared only as an instrumental from Page means that the arrangement contribution to a traditional piece by Jansch is most likely the case.

[Mattius]

 

I discussed this with Bert Jansch in 1998 over a beer. He was telling me that he actually was a bit of a fan of Jimmy's having seen one of the PP gigs in '95. He said  that he felt that Jimmy stealing BMS was a bit of a compliment & that he wasn't that bothered as much of BMS/White Summer was a mishmash of "She Moves Though The Fair and other Davy Graham's pieces. He considered such tunes were  in the realms of traditional folk!

[price.pittsburgh]

On 4/17/2011 at 1:26 PM, swandown said:

Al Stewart had seen both Jansch and Anne Briggs perform "Blackwaterside" at the coffee bars in early 1966, before either one of them had recorded the song. Then in June 1966 Stewart did a session with Page and taught the song to Page (according to Stewart).

 

By the way, Jansch claims that he got the song from Briggs, who claims that she got the song from a traveling Irish folk singer named Mary Doran. However, this is almost definitely wrong. Jansch's version is actually a note-for-note copy of a 1962 version by Isla Cameron.

 

I always thought it was ironic that the Bert Jansch fans have criticized Page for copying Jansch, yet no one ever criticizes Jansch for copying Isla Cameron.

For the same reason that Ann Bredon sued Page for Babe I'm Gonna Leave You but didn't sue Joan Baez and willie Dixon sued for Wole Lotta Love but didn't sue The Small Faces for You Need Loving. They didn't care about artist integrity if someone who wasn't making any money recorded it, they only cared when there was cash to be made of a successful act. 

[the chase]

12 hours ago, price.pittsburgh said:

For the same reason that Ann Bredon sued Page for Babe I'm Gonna Leave You but didn't sue Joan Baez and willie Dixon sued for Wole Lotta Love but didn't sue The Small Faces for You Need Loving. They didn't care about artist integrity if someone who wasn't making any money recorded it, they only cared when there was cash to be made of a successful act. 

Joan Baez gave Ann Bredon credit for BIGLY .. so she was in the clear. 

The Small Faces did not give Willie Dixon credit. 

[price.pittsburgh]

On 5/2/2021 at 9:49 AM, the chase said:

Joan Baez gave Ann Bredon credit for BIGLY .. so she was in the clear. 

The Small Faces did not give Willie Dixon credit. 

I was under the impression that Baez version only said traditional and that's why Page listed his as traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page. 

[the chase]

6 hours ago, price.pittsburgh said:

I was under the impression that Baez version only said traditional and that's why Page listed his as traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page. 

Looks like that's correct.  It was changed for CD releases from traditional to Anne Bredon.

When I looked up the Joan Baez In Concert release, It listed Anne Bredon as the writer.   

[Mr. Snrub]

On 5/12/2021 at 3:31 AM, the chase said:

Looks like that's correct.  It was changed for CD releases from traditional to Anne Bredon.

When I looked up the Joan Baez In Concert release, It listed Anne Bredon as the writer.   

Baez started crediting Bredon in 1964, but only on the sheet music. The record label was too cheap to update the credits on the album. That's why Jimmy didn't know about Anne Bredon.

[the chase]

16 hours ago, Mr. Snrub said:

Baez started crediting Bredon in 1964, but only on the sheet music. The record label was too cheap to update the credits on the album. That's why Jimmy didn't know about Anne Bredon.

makes sense. thanks for the clarification.