Tempe '77

[Nutrocker]

With the whole punk scene exploding at the time I just cannot understand why they put together such a bloated, final act to the set. They should have never played the noise solo, the drum solo, and in my opinion (please don't flame me) the whole Jones solo section of NQ. When it comes to NQ that song to me is pure atmosphere, brooding, and dark and the boogie section just killed it for me in particular. And if Jimmy really wanted a solo showcase he could have included a either a very edited WS/BMS during the outro to Going to Cali.

Yer right, the massively self indulgent aspect of the '77 tour is one of the things Punk was totally rebelling against, and it's hard to believe that during rehearsals when Zeppelin was lashing together the set list that they actually thought going from a twenty minute plus drum solo into a ten minute bowed guitar/theramin solo was actually a good idea. Yeah, of course I know the "Noise" solo acts as a prelude to "Achilles Last Stand" in the same way that "White Summer/Black Mountainside" was brought out of mothballs (last played in 1970) as a prelude to "Kashmir", but I think the dude in the audience captured on the "Listen To This Eddie" recording from June 21 said it best when he said, "We've had the guitar lesson!"

As for Jonesy's piano solo and the "Boogie Jam" during "No Quarter", well, I can understand the piano solo but I remember the first "Boogie Jam" I heard and thinking "What the fuck?!" I mean, I'm used to it now, and actually dig how they went into different improvs from night to night, but the whole thing comes out of such left field that you almost think, "What, did they forget they were supposed to be playing 'No Quarter'?" In retrospect, there was nothing wrong with the '73 or '75 arrangements of that tune, and maybe they should have stuck with that in 1977...though, I must admit, when taken out of the context of "No Quarter", some of those Boogie Jams kick ass...the "Nutrocker"'s aside (that was a bit of inspired genius on JPJ's part) I cite the jam they went into on June 11th -my personal favourite- as a fucking awesome song in itself. That four and a half minutes would have been right at home on any of their studio albums IMO.

Mind ya, look at the gargantuan 1973 and '75 performances of "Dazed And Confused"...what the hell did "Going To San Francisco" or "Woodstock" have to do with "Dazed And Confused"? They sound cool but are as out of left field as breaking out into a slow blues, New Orleans shuffle or "The Nutcracker Suite" during "No Quarter".

[Daeron]

Personally, I'd go for this:

Kashmir

Trampled Under Foot

Drum Solo

Heartbreaker (or Over The Hills if it wasn't played in the first set)

Guitar Noise Solo

IMO going from the drum solo to Page's 'noise' solo is what really killed the momentum...they needed a tune in between to break those bits of tedium up. Also Page should have kept "White Summer/Black Mountain Side" down to five or six minutes at most, and the 'noise' solo never should have gone over ten minutes. Ditto for keeping Bonham's solo down to fifteen, twenty tops (thirty six minutes...WTF?! ) At least Jonesy kept his ivory tickling during "No Quarter" down to five minutes or so most nights.

Two things I've said before about the '77 tour in general:

- almost an hour per gig focused on meandering instrumental solos by Jones, Bonham and Page, respectively. Sure, those solo spots gave Robert a much needed break, but laser shows and pyro effects aside, you can only bore yer audience with guitar noise, pounding drums/tympani, piano recitals and sloppily played guitar pieces for so long before boredom sets in...

- I'm still convinced that post-Seattle they made a concious decision to scale back the length of the solo pieces, and eliminated Bonham's altogether (though they could have been a decision made on his own, and not as a band collective) Tempe being a bit of an exception- Page deliberately skipped "White Summer" (playing BMS for about 45 seconds instead) either because he knew the show was running late (they were very late taking the stage in the first place IIRC) or because he knew he wasn't up to it. That said, it would have been nice if he'd kept the rest of the band in the loop regarding that decision...

I agree with that song order you list. It allows the band to be self-indulgent, but it also provides more songs for the people with short attention spans. But another song that I always felt dragged on this tour (and people never seem to mention it in discussions) is Bron-Yr-Aur Stomp. Jimmy's guitar breakdown is always too long and meandering. It sounds like several minutes of him trying to figure out what to play next and then giving up and returning to the song. I think on Listen To This Eddie you can hear an audience member yelling "come on"! during this section. If he had played a fuller version of "Black Mountain Rag" or some other bluegrass tune in its place then it would sound better (and more audience friendly) than that pointless strumming.

[Nutrocker]

But another song that I always felt dragged on this tour (and people never seem to mention it in discussions) is Bron-Yr-Aur Stomp. Jimmy's guitar breakdown is always too long and meandering. It sounds like several minutes of him trying to figure out what to play next and then giving up and returning to the song. I think on Listen To This Eddie you can hear an audience member yelling "come on"! during this section. If he had played a fuller version of "Black Mountain Rag" or some other bluegrass tune in its place then it would sound better (and more audience friendly) than that pointless strumming.

BYAS is another tune that worked when Jimmy kept it short, and did indeed tend to meander when he went off on a tangent. The odd occasion where he broke out into "Dancing Days" was pretty cool- why the fuck didn't they just add that tune to the acoustic set at every show? It seemed to work well on the occasions they played it, but, having said that, I reckon how they turned "Bron Yr Aur Stomp" into a bit of a medley (adding "I Can't Be Satisfied" and "Dancing Days") on June 27 was brilliant (and a large part of why June 27 is my favourite acoustic set of the whole tour!) Of course, I don't know why they didn't play a full version of "Black Country Woman", either. Ya know, for all the hype about the 'acoustic set' in the show, it really only amounts to three full songs and about twenty minutes. Whoopie. I would have preferred a longer acoustic set (toss in the aforementioned "Dancing Days', a full "Black Country Woman", and, if I had my druthers, "That's The Way") especially at the expense of shorter drum and noise solos!

...Of course, in Tempe (just to sort of remain on the general topic) Page started to play "Dancing Days" during BYAS, but as soon as Bonzo joins in, he stops! WTF?!

[And You Know How It Is?]

Really great discussion points, but I'll add another theory why the indulgent solos were important on the '77 tour: Plant's leg just hadn't recovered from the '75 Greece car crash, and he needed to sit down not only during the acoustic set, but throughout these long solos backstage.

All one has to do is read Robert's comments to the LA Times reporter after the Dallas show, to understand that he couldn't just stand on his two feet for 3-3:30 straight hours every night. Those intermittant breaks between Pagey's, Bonzo's and Jonesy's solos, in addition to the acoustic set, had to help him rebuild stamina, and not further damage the injured leg during that longest ever Zep tour!

[Nutrocker]

Really great discussion points, but I'll add another theory why the indulgent solos were important on the '77 tour: Plant's leg just hadn't recovered from the '75 Greece car crash, and he needed to sit down not only during the acoustic set, but throughout these long solos backstage.

All one has to do is read Robert's comments to the LA Times reporter after the Dallas show, to understand that he couldn't just stand on his two feet for 3-3:30 straight hours every night. Those intermittant breaks between Pagey's, Bonzo's and Jonesy's solos, in addition to the acoustic set, had to help him rebuild stamina, and not further damage the injured leg during that longest ever Zep tour!

No question that that was a factor, possibly even the biggest one. I think the longest Robert had to be on his feet on the '77 tour, was roughly the first 45 minutes of the show, before they got down to "No Quarter". Still, they coulda staggered the solo spots a bit better through the set IMO- back to back drum and 'noise' solos just wasn't a good idea from an audience perspective. Probably made for some pretty long bathroom/concession breaks!

[tom kid]

No question that that was a factor, possibly even the biggest one. I think the longest Robert had to be on his feet on the '77 tour, was roughly the first 45 minutes of the show, before they got down to "No Quarter". Still, they coulda staggered the solo spots a bit better through the set IMO- back to back drum and 'noise' solos just wasn't a good idea from an audience perspective. Probably made for some pretty long bathroom/concession breaks!

Were they selling alcohol at venues in 1977? If so, the bars would have made an absolute killing during that section of the show haha. The back to back extended solos really do baffle the mind, but it might have made sense if you were a smack addict like Bonzo and Page were at the time. Funny that the drugs never hampered Bonzo's musical ability really, apart from a couple of shows in '77 (San Diego and the second to last Landover show come to mind) he really was spot on. He is pretty crazy at some points during the Houston show, but that, in my opinion was due to a certain white powder going through his nostrils into his brain. I have read that he used to have a big bag of coke on his lap during shows, don't know if its true or not but thats what some former roadies said IIRC.

[bamf4k]

Why doesn't anyone ever pick on '73 or '75 for having long solos? Between 25-30 min. drum solos in '73, and 25 minute No Quarters (minus the "boogie jam") and 44 min. DnC's in '75, long solos weren't exactly new in '77. Although the drums and noises could've been dispersed a little bit better (a song between, and I don't care how long the noise solo is, assuming it's played well.) As for Tempe (and Seattle too), I think they were still trying to play like it was LA, what with thirty minute No Quarters and 15 minute Noise Solos (and an 11 minute WS/BMS in Seattle). I think not easing back into playing (i.e. shorter performances at first, then becoming longer later on), personal habits, and a bad atmosphere were the main ingredients for the shit stew that Tempe is at times. As for Punk, Zep didn't need to care about them, after all, if they didn't care to talk to the press, why should they care what losers in their garage's think of them? Although it's clear that two years later, Zeppelin was ready to cave in to Punk, I'm pretty sure that after the time they had been away, and an album that they would admit in later years wasn't their best, the group didn't want to take any chances on their second "big comeback". But coming back to '77, I think that the only thing that should've changed about the setlist is more songs from Presence (switch out SIBLY for T4One) shorter drum solos, and a song ( For Your Life?) between OtT and the Noise Solo. I also think what they were trying to do, based on the structure of the setlist, (especially the readdition of the acoustic set) was make every show like an Earl's Court show. This is only an observation, mind you, but the setlist and different moods of the setlists were quite similiar. If only they had actually been able to do this every night, and not just some.

[bamf4k]

Mind ya, look at the gargantuan 1973 and '75 performances of "Dazed And Confused"...what the hell did "Going To San Francisco" or "Woodstock" have to do with "Dazed And Confused"?

I honestly don't think this was all that "left field". Truthfully, I think it fits perfectly in DnC. I remember the first time I watched TSRTS, having never heard Led-Zeppelin live before then, I found the "San Francisco" section to be a very haunting yet awesome part of the song, not knowing that it was a cover either, working perfectly with the mood and a great segway into the Violin Bow Solo. It felt very fluid with the rest of the song the first time I heard it, sounding like an extension rather than a curveball.

[Nutrocker]

Were they selling alcohol at venues in 1977? If so, the bars would have made an absolute killing during that section of the show haha. The back to back extended solos really do baffle the mind, but it might have made sense if you were a smack addict like Bonzo and Page were at the time. Funny that the drugs never hampered Bonzo's musical ability really, apart from a couple of shows in '77 (San Diego and the second to last Landover show come to mind) he really was spot on. He is pretty crazy at some points during the Houston show, but that, in my opinion was due to a certain white powder going through his nostrils into his brain. I have read that he used to have a big bag of coke on his lap during shows, don't know if its true or not but thats what some former roadies said IIRC.

As far as heroin addicts kicking ass behind the skins, see also: Ginger Baker. Aside from some Jazz drummers I may not be thinking of, Ginger Baker was probably the King Of Junkie Drummers

Yeah, you could certainly tell when Bonzo was hitting the blow hard in '77; he overplays so much in Houston and Fort Worth that the band comes close to trainwreck mode more than once (particularly during IMTOD). I was listening to the May 26 Landover show yesterday and he overplays quite a bit there,except he's really erratic as well (the 36 minute drum solo is excruciating)...I think he was ready to crash by the 28th, but Jimmy is pretty iffy at that show too.

Why doesn't anyone ever pick on '73 or '75 for having long solos? As for Tempe (and Seattle too), I think they were still trying to play like it was LA, what with thirty minute No Quarters and 15 minute Noise Solos (and an 11 minute WS/BMS in Seattle). I think not easing back into playing (i.e. shorter performances at first, then becoming longer later on), personal habits, and a bad atmosphere were the main ingredients for the shit stew that Tempe is at times. But coming back to '77, I think that the only thing that should've changed about the setlist is more songs from Presence (switch out SIBLY for T4One) shorter drum solos, and a song ( For Your Life?) between OtT and the Noise Solo. I also think what they were trying to do, based on the structure of the setlist, (especially the readdition of the acoustic set) was make every show like an Earl's Court show. This is only an observation, mind you, but the setlist and different moods of the setlists were quite similiar. If only they had actually been able to do this every night, and not just some.

It's not that the solos are long that was the problem, it's how they affected the pacing of the show; a back to back twenty to thirty minute drum solo and a ten or fifteen minute bowed guitar/theramin solo just wasn't a good idea. Yes, I'm sure the venues sold booze in '77, and sure they did a booming business at that point in the show!

As far as acoustic sets go, I think the CSNY reunion tour in 1974 was largely responsible for everyone and their dog busting out the acoustic instruments for a section of the show (and Page, Plant and Bonham all saw the CSNY Wembley 16-9-74 gig) because CSNY showed how an intimate acoustic set could be carried off in a stadium or large arena.

And it is kinda pathetic that on the '77 tour they only did two songs from the new album; compare that to '75 when Physical Graffiti came out- a good half dozen or so tunes were played from the album.

I honestly don't think this was all that "left field". Truthfully, I think it fits perfectly in DnC. I remember the first time I watched TSRTS, having never heard Led-Zeppelin live before then, I found the "San Francisco" section to be a very haunting yet awesome part of the song, not knowing that it was a cover either, working perfectly with the mood and a great segway into the Violin Bow Solo. It felt very fluid with the rest of the song the first time I heard it, sounding like an extension rather than a curveball.

And, lest we forget, the "San Francisco" jam in "Dazed And Confused" begat "Achilles Last Stand". Check the intros to both some time...

[Daeron]

I can understand why the drum solo was dropped at Tempe (late start, rowdy crowds, shitty performances, etc.) and Oakland (late start, rowdy crowds,backstage drama, no special effects because of the daylight, etc.) but does anybody know if it was dropped permanently from the setlist? I have a hard time imagining the band performing at the Superdome and JFK Stadium without a drum solo.

[JimmyPageZoSo56]

Personally, I'd go for this:

Kashmir

Trampled Under Foot

Drum Solo

Heartbreaker (or Over The Hills if it wasn't played in the first set)

Guitar Noise Solo

IMO going from the drum solo to Page's 'noise' solo is what really killed the momentum...they needed a tune in between to break those bits of tedium up. Also Page should have kept "White Summer/Black Mountain Side" down to five or six minutes at most, and the 'noise' solo never should have gone over ten minutes. Ditto for keeping Bonham's solo down to fifteen, twenty tops (thirty six minutes...WTF?! ) At least Jonesy kept his ivory tickling during "No Quarter" down to five minutes or so most nights.

Two things I've said before about the '77 tour in general:

- almost an hour per gig focused on meandering instrumental solos by Jones, Bonham and Page, respectively. Sure, those solo spots gave Robert a much needed break, but laser shows and pyro effects aside, you can only bore yer audience with guitar noise, pounding drums/tympani, piano recitals and sloppily played guitar pieces for so long before boredom sets in...

- I'm still convinced that post-Seattle they made a concious decision to scale back the length of the solo pieces, and eliminated Bonham's altogether (though they could have been a decision made on his own, and not as a band collective) Tempe being a bit of an exception- Page deliberately skipped "White Summer" (playing BMS for about 45 seconds instead) either because he knew the show was running late (they were very late taking the stage in the first place IIRC) or because he knew he wasn't up to it. That said, it would have been nice if he'd kept the rest of the band in the loop regarding that decision...

Sadly, it got cut However, if you don't want to play it, you don't have to. Fortunately for Bonzo, he never played Moby Dick in Europe; except for a few dates in 1970, Saint-Ouen 1973, and Earl's Court 1975. So I'm sure for him, the times he did play it, he enjoyed it thoroughly.

[Nutrocker]

I can understand why the drum solo was dropped at Tempe (late start, rowdy crowds, shitty performances, etc.) and Oakland (late start, rowdy crowds,backstage drama, no special effects because of the daylight, etc.) but does anybody know if it was dropped permanently from the setlist? I have a hard time imagining the band performing at the Superdome and JFK Stadium without a drum solo.

We'll never know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if the drum solo got axed, which is a shame 'cos I love 'em!

Sadly, it got cut However, if you don't want to play it, you don't have to. Fortunately for Bonzo, he never played Moby Dick in Europe; except for a few dates in 1970, Saint-Ouen 1973, and Earl's Court 1975. So I'm sure for him, the times he did play it, he enjoyed it thoroughly.

Interesting...have to wonder why he didn't do "Moby Dick" in Europe- time constraints, or European audiences having less patience (which I don't believe to be the case).

[JimmyPageZoSo56]

Interesting...have to wonder why he didn't do "Moby Dick" in Europe- time constraints, or European audiences having less patience (which I don't believe to be the case).

Personally, what I think is it's all demographics. Why did Zeppelin, even every other band, write different sets for the countries they're touring? I think it's because different people in different countries like those songs on the set. I also think they didn't have the patience. If you listen to American tour shows, people go nuts when Robert would say "...John Bonham, Moby Dick!" On the contrary, there aren't many European shows available that "Moby Dick" was played at. Other than the few dates of 1970, Saint-Ouen 1973, and Earl's Court 1975.

Since it seems to me that the shows in Europe from 1972-1973 were shorter than the American 1973 tour because they didn't play the two other longs songs added to the American '73 set. Why did they not play songs like "No Quarter" or "Moby Dick" in Europe? Did they think their audience wouldn't be patient enough to listen to two more longer songs or did they just not think of playing them at the time? However, for the American tour, they're added to the set.

Or simply, the other guys didn't want him to play it. I think any this could be it could be plausible.

[Walter]

I might be going out on a limb here but America has always been the land of "bigger and better" attitude. We're guilty of excess. So, when Zep came over they typically followed suit. Longer shows, longer solos, more drugs, more women, etc. I think it was more of a mind set while in America than anything. Just my opinion.

[Nutrocker]

I think they stuck to shorter songs over here cos we weren't into quaaludes much.

Nah, you Brits just called 'Ludes Mandrax

Still, didn't they refer to the '75 Earls Court shows as 'bringing our American show home to England'?

[JimmyPageZoSo56]

I might be going out on a limb here but America has always been the land of "bigger and better" attitude. We're guilty of excess. So, when Zep came over they typically followed suit. Longer shows, longer solos, more drugs, more women, etc. I think it was more of a mind set while in America than anything. Just my opinion.

No, this makes sense. It goes with the point I was trying to make.

[JimmyPageZoSo56]

Nah, you Brits just called 'Ludes Mandrax

Still, didn't they refer to the '75 Earls Court shows as 'bringing our American show home to England'?

Yes they did! They added a few other things such as jumbo-tron screens. Robert talks about not having money to fly out of the country.

Full Quote;

One wonders, we'd like to do one more. We're just having a little chat, if you'd excuse us for one minute. In the meantime, you'll see the gentlemen in the white shirts will be passing a hat around because the equipment and Dennis cost us so much that we got no bread to fly out of the country. So if you see a hat coming round please put bread in it. Somebody's got to make some money somewhere.

[Nutrocker]

I actually circulated the personal remaster I did of the Tempe recording a couple years back (from a 2nd gen copy a friend of mine sent me; I had to tweak and speed correct the 2nd gen just to be able to listen to it)...it's done the circuits at all the usual places. Made the murky recording sound pretty good...maybe even too good- you can hear all the mistakes in all their glory LOL!

CORRECTED...the remaster is from the normal 2ndGen source, not a 1stGen, I was mistaken. See the original notes provided online.

I'd like to get a hold of it!

I've uploaded it again, folks...ten cents a minute...I actually thought everybody already had this recording...

[ListenToThis]

Had another listen to this after a few years. It's pretty interesting.

- Acoustic set is low key due to Plant's voice

- TUF solo is crazy. Nutrocker is right, Jimmy is channeling Neil Young

- I think Jimmy skipped WS/BMS due to a rowdy crowd likely throwing bottles / firecrackers and such

- Kashmir is pretty good and as per most of the time in '77 Bonham is on fire

- ALS is wrecked due to Jimmy being hit by the flashpots

- And Stairway - the solo is amazing. I think the somewhat longer delay between the end of ALS and start of Stairway contained a discussion amongst the band members that there would be no encore and thus Stairway needed to be a special version. Its the second longest performance of the piece and features some great licks from Jimmy including a highly unusual somber section. The prior decision to not feature an encore also supports Bonham's quick abandonment of his drum stool at the end of Stairway.

Like so many 1977 shows Tempe is nothing if not unusual.

[ledzepfilm]

I disagree - the beginning of Kashmir is enough to disprove that Tempe "is nothing if not unusual." Page was frail, still, and right by Bonham's kick the whole time, so he must have been smacked out of his mind.

[ListenToThis]

^ I'm not sure you understand the meaning and my use of "nothing if not unusual".

Also your analysis appears to indicate you've seen more than the two or three attributed photos of Page at the show. Please elaborate on your sources of information if you are able to do so.

[ledzepfilm]

There was a review from someone who attended the show that mentioned that Page was nearly stationary for the whole show. I will need to find the review... I'll edit this post when I do.

EDIT: This isn't the review I was referring to, but this was another account of the show from another person who attended. It could be... many of the details match the review match the one I saw on another site. Still could be different as it doesn't include the "Led Zeppelin didn't eat their Wheaties" comment that I recall reading.

"The beginning of the show seemed decent enough except Jimmy wasn't moving around much. He seemed rather content standing almost perfectly still throughout the performance just in front of John Bonhams drum riser."

What did your statement mean, then? Sorry if I got that mixed up with what it didn't mean.

[ListenToThis]

You may be recalling a first hand account given by an attendee in a past issue of TBL. I will check the review as well.

The statement "nothing if not unusual" generally means, at least in my area, that the specific issue at hand, when being described, must be noted as unusual in addition to other merits. It's a fancy and admittedly unnecessary way of saying "not normal".

[ledzepfilm]

The way you worded it made me comprehend that it meant "it wasn't unusual," so sorry about that.

It probably was, it was on an old Led Zeppelin forum that I believe shut down at some point.

[BMV]

I feel a little weird saying this, but I kinda like the unique intro and slow to fast movement of ALS's opening on this version.

I so agree with this! That intro is pure spooky atmosphere, fantastic, LOVE IT! I also really enjoy that Page solo intro to Kashmir, that is an example of how they supposedly switched arrangements in concert so much (I find this didn't measure up in later tours, it became somewhat formatted). Accidental, but great to hear, loose and cool. As an aside, Jimmy in the t-shirt with fromal vest was nice looking.