Barney Hoskyns book

[mielazul]

Benji was not the only person in Hoskyn's book portraying Jimmy in an favorable light from 1975 on...If you're a drug addict, then by extension you're a selfish person. The fact that Jimmy came out the other side is the real triumph of this story. Maybe Benji had an axe to grind but it doesn't make what he said any less true.

But that was my point - Benji was going over that line and saying things that weren't true. And my example was the double-neck guitar thing - suggesting that Jimmy would be strumming one of the guitars and fingering chords on the other, while thinking he was playing the same one. And after I wrote my post I went back and re-read the Benji quote I was referring to, and if anything, the quote was even more extreme, suggesting that it happened with with some frequency. That's the most insane bullshit ever, and in my opinion - as someone who takes pride in the music that I make - it amounts to character assassination. As I mentioned before, what Benji's describing would sould like a metal bucket getting thrown down a stairwell. There are '77 lovers like me, but even the detractors couldn't point to anything like that on the bootlegs. It's bullshit, and I think people get away with it because of the drug thing. This isn't about hero worship, it's about calling bullshit on someone who's spreading a really fucked up lie. I don't mean to come off too strident, but another member here just said that this guy had to be decked at Bonzo's funeral - by Bonzo's brother - because he was being such an asshole. You can really tell from his quotes in the book. Let me just make one more point, to prove it's not about hero worhip to me - Janine Safer (sp?) seemed to totally HATE JImmy, but when asked what her favorite part about working for LZ during '77 was, she said listening to the music at the shows. That suggests to me someone who is a little more objective, and doesn't need to make up lies.

[kaiser]

Whether Benji Lefevre is inaccurate or has an axe to grind, he was a witness to the proceedings & that trumps a fan on a webpage reporting on bootlegs of the tour who never had a visual to support his theory. Sorry, it just does...

[mielazul]

Whether Benji Lefevre is inaccurate or has an axe to grind, he was a witness to the proceedings & that trumps a fan on a webpage reporting on bootlegs of the tour who never had a visual to support his theory. Sorry, it just does...

Well, no it doesn't. When people lie, and documents show that they're lying, their lies don't "trump" shit.

There are A LOT of documents of the events in question, and none of them match up with what he's saying. If you want to believe Jimmy played through Stairway to Heaven or Song Remains the Same - even at ONE show, let alone multiple shows - fingering chords on the 12-string while strumming and picking at the 6 string, thinking they were one and the same....well, okay. I mean, do you believe that?

[mielazul]

Whether Benji Lefevre is inaccurate or has an axe to grind, he was a witness to the proceedings & that trumps a fan on a webpage reporting on bootlegs of the tour who never had a visual to support his theory. Sorry, it just does...

I notice above that you enjoyed the book, and I should say that I agree - it was an amazing read, the most in depth acount I've ever read of LZ's inner workings. So, I wasn't trying to knock the book at all, even though I probably came off that way (it is grim, though). It's just that there are a lot of quotes from Lefevre, and that double-neck thing just enraged me. I should just cool out, I guess...

[kaiser]

Well, no it doesn't. When people lie, and documents show that they're lying, their lies don't "trump" shit.

There are A LOT of documents of the events in question, and none of them match up with what he's saying. If you want to believe Jimmy played through Stairway to Heaven or Song Remains the Same - even at ONE show, let alone multiple shows - fingering chords on the 12-string while strumming and picking at the 6 string, thinking they were one and the same....well, okay. I mean, do you believe that?

I believe it's not out of the realm of possibility. Page was a heroin addict on top of being a big boozer & cocaine user, his playing was erratic on that tour, his pants fell off during a show, & a show was cancelled midway through due to, ahem, "food poisoning". So, I'd say it's in the realm of possibility while you don't think it's possible at all. What's for certain is neither you or I were there... but Benji Levfre certainly was.

[kaiser]

I notice above that you enjoyed the book, and I should say that I agree - it was an amazing read, the most in depth acount I've ever read of LZ's inner workings. So, I wasn't trying to knock the book at all, even though I probably came off that way (it is grim, though). It's just that there are a lot of quotes from Lefevre, and that double-neck thing just enraged me. I should just cool out, I guess...

I did enjoy the book in part because 1) it's a narrative of quotes as opposed to the author interjecting myth making bs as Stephen Davis did or making up fantasy soliloquy's as Mick Wall did 2) I also like that people seem less guarded in what they feel they have to say, axe to grind or not, and with the passage of time that was inevitable. I also like Tolinski's book, even though I had all the GW articles, for a totally different reason than why I enjoyed Hoskyns book. I actually enjoyed Davis's recent account of LZ's 1975 tour of which he was a part of & it was a story about him more than it was the band. I enjoy these things for what they ae as everyone has their side of a story, it's up to the reader to decide where the truth is in it & the reader would still get it wrong simply by not being there. None of this should be accepted as doctrine.

[missytootsweet]

It's my favorite Zeppelin book as far the personal inner workings & salacious side of the band. Hoskyn's doesn't throw in his own thoughts, opinions, fantasy dialogue into his book the way that both Stephen Davis & Mick Wall did but constructs a narrative through interviews & cherry picked comments from those involved. It may not be the perfect unbiased book those of us crave but it's certainly better than "Hammer Of The Gods" & "When Giants Walked The Earth". It was an enjoyable read & I think at this point there are those who feel less intimidated about Zeppelin retribution when spilling the beans about them.

I agree with you. I love the style of all quotes.

It's such a refreshing change from the usual authors who tend to weave their own narrative and bias into a biography.

[kaiser]

I agree with you. I love the style of all quotes.

It's such a refreshing change from the usual authors who tend to weave their own narrative and bias into a biography.

Exactly. The quotes in the book are stand alone without any interjection from the author. How many times on this forum have I seen members quote a sensationalist like Davis or a disgruntled Wall's opinions as fact? Countless. Hoskyn's let's the quotes stand as they are with either similar perceptions or the opposite being presented while composing a narrative around those individual perceptions. It's as close to an unbiased approach as one will get with so many characters involved.

[Percys_Plant]

Agree with what's said up there.

Getting different perspectives makes it a fascinating insight into the band.

While one person waxes poetic about someone, the other might rip a new one into him; leaving you with a complex take into what made each man tick.

Quite an enjoyable read actually and one I'll actually purchase to keep in my collection (got the one I read from my local library...yes, those places STILL exist!)

[Texas Melanie]

Exactly. The quotes in the book are stand alone without any interjection from the author. How many times on this forum have I seen members quote a sensationalist like Davis or a disgruntled Wall's opinions as fact? Countless. Hoskyn's let's the quotes stand as they are with either similar perceptions or the opposite being presented while composing a narrative around those individual perceptions. It's as close to an unbiased approach as one will get with so many characters involved.

Exactly and I respect that he interviewed individuals that had not been heard from until now i.e. Janine Safer, Swan Song employees, Maggie Bell, etc...

When I read the book I kept in mind what kind if drugs the band members were using while exhibiting unflattering behavior. I know that Jimmy was prone to hissy fits from time to time but his deplorable actions, such as spitting at the Showco employee, was due in part to all the coke in his system. Janine Safer describe the band as well behaved at the beginning of the 77 tour and we all know it just went to hell in a hand basket, due to unsavory employees but also increased heavy drug use. That was one tour I wouldn't want to affiliate myself with.

[offtherecord]

Benji was not the only person in Hoskyn's book portraying Jimmy in an unfavorable light from 1975 on...If you're a drug addict, then by extension you're a selfish person. The fact that Jimmy came out the other side is the real triumph of this story. Maybe Benji had an axe to grind but it doesn't make what he said any less true.

[Shadecatcher]

While license is taken with unauthorized biographies, publishers have them legally vetted carefully. I'd say anything anyone would dispute would will have at least a kernel of truth to it. Any diligent author would be able to cite recorded interviews and double source checks to support quotes and incidents. Where the tone of a book seems particularly ruthless or mean, it comes down to the literary license of the author whose voice presides. I'm guessing that in the reading of several books on the band, somewhere in the middle of them you arrive at the hard truths. When a book like Light & Shade comes off obviously gratuitous, that in itself is telling.

[Chicago]

Total bullshit that Jimmy was playing his 12 and 6 string guitar at the same time.That would've meant no notes being articulated other than open strings. I was at all 4 nights in Chicago in 1977. It didn't happen and I saw Page collapse on that Saturday night. He did start Since I've Been Loving You too early in the set that night. I've read through this book a couple times already and it seems to me a mix of truth and embellishment. Depending on how much you were paid by the band. A few posts here seem to have a foul opinion of how Page comes across, but Bonham's portrayed here as an absolute violent madman. Someone you wouldn't want around your loved ones.

[mielazul]

Total bullshit that Jimmy was playing his 12 and 6 string guitar at the same time.That would've meant no notes being articulated other than open strings. I was at all 4 nights in Chicago in 1977. It didn't happen and I saw Page collapse on that Saturday night. He did start Since I've Been Loving You too early in the set that night. I've read through this book a couple times already and it seems to me a mix of truth and embellishment. Depending on how much you were paid by the band. A few posts here seem to have a foul opinion of how Page comes across, but Bonham's portrayed here as an absolute violent madman. Someone you wouldn't want around your loved ones.

THANK YOU CHICAGO!! It's about time someone backed me up on this. I kind of backed out of the debate because I'm a newbie and I don't want to get in some stupid thing as soon as I get here...but seriously, Benji Lefevre is a liar and I can't believe people on this forum got snarky with me when I pointed out some slander against Jimmy that is totally and obviously bullshit. It's like no one commenting here - before you came along - has the vaguest idea how a guitar works. I'll say what Lefevre said again, because people are not thinking this through, at all...either because they're lazy, or they just can't. Lefevre is claimg that Jimmy, while playing the double-neck, would finger the chords on the 12 string while strumming and picking the six-string...in such total confusion that he thought he was playing the same guitar. Look at the picture above that Chicago uses - imagine Jimmy's left hand chording the 12 string above, while his right hand is where it is, on the strings below. And now I'll say this again - THAT WOULD BE TOTAL CACOPHONY - not "sloppy" (so overused) not messy, not ragged...not some confusion with the chords among the band...just total cacophony. And remember, we're only talking about two songs here - Sick Again doesn't count because it was played exclusively on the six-string part of the double-neck. So you've got the opening song - Song Remains The Same, and their most popular song, Stairway to Heaven. Lefevre is claiming that on one of the most bootleged, press covered tours, Jimmy was playing nonsesical noise during those numbers - not once, but frequently. COME ON, PEOPLE. Get off your high horse, and find the guts to call somebody out when they're lying. Or, if you really don't know how a guitar works, just stay out of the debate. And finally, I'M NOT SAYING THE BOOK ISN'T GOOD. But Lefevre is quoted VERY heavily...and a he's a liar.

I doesn't matter that he was there and we weren't when all the documents - and common sense - indicate he's lying. Go to any courtroom and you'll see people who "were there" at some incident getting convicted because they're lying and anyone with a brain can tell they are.

[TheStairwayRemainsTheSame]

It's the comments on Robert and Jimmy's relationship that get me, I don't know if its anywhere near true that they are so broken away from one another as put in the book

[fishhead]

Re: B. LeF and his comment about Jimmy playing his double-neck in that f-ed up fashion....

You would have to be completely totally f-ed up to play a double-neck like that. And if you did, it would mean you were in a state where you could probably not walk, talk or think, and would most likely be lying down for the evening........ I call Bullshit..............Maybe Benji was the one f-ed up and was hallucinating..

With all the photos, and prior concert reviews over the years, you would think that there would have been a photo or review commenting on Jimmy playing this way.If I ever see a photo of Jimmy strumming away on the open stringed neck while fretting the other neck I will give Benji his dues......

[Shadecatcher]

THANK YOU CHICAGO!! It's about time someone backed me up on this. I kind of backed out of the debate because I'm a newbie and I don't want to get in some stupid thing as soon as I get here...but seriously, Benji Lefevre is a liar and I can't believe people on this forum got snarky with me when I pointed out some slander against Jimmy that is totally and obviously bullshit. It's like no one commenting here - before you came along - has the vaguest idea how a guitar works. I'll say what Lefevre said again, because people are not thinking this through, at all...either because they're lazy, or they just can't. Lefevre is claimg that Jimmy, while playing the double-neck, would finger the chords on the 12 string while strumming and picking the six-string...in such total confusion that he thought he was playing the same guitar. Look at the picture above that Chicago uses - imagine Jimmy's left hand chording the 12 string above, while his right hand is where it is, on the strings below. And now I'll say this again - THAT WOULD BE TOTAL CACOPHONY - not "sloppy" (so overused) not messy, not ragged...not some confusion with the chords among the band...just total cacophony. And remember, we're only talking about two songs here - Sick Again doesn't count because it was played exclusively on the six-string part of the double-neck. So you've got the opening song - Song Remains The Same, and their most popular song, Stairway to Heaven. Lefevre is claiming that on one of the most bootleged, press covered tours, Jimmy was playing nonsesical noise during those numbers - not once, but frequently. COME ON, PEOPLE. Get off your high horse, and find the guts to call somebody out when they're lying. Or, if you really don't know how a guitar works, just stay out of the debate. And finally, I'M NOT SAYING THE BOOK ISN'T GOOD. But Lefevre is quoted VERY heavily...and a he's a liar.

I doesn't matter that he was there and we weren't when all the documents - and common sense - indicate he's lying. Go to any courtroom and you'll see people who "were there" at some incident getting convicted because they're lying and anyone with a brain can tell they are.

Anyone who has played any electric guitar at all would know your assessment is right. A guitar question for you, since I've never played a double-neck: do you need/should you turn the volume down or off on the one not being played, then volume up when you go back to it? Or are both kept volume up and live all the time?

[mielazul]

It's the comments on Robert and Jimmy's relationship that get me, I don't know if its anywhere near true that they are so broken away from one another as put in the book

The thing that kind of stuck in my mind about that was when someone said that there was something between Jimmy and Robert that he can't mention...something worse than Jimmy not going to Karac's funeral. This person said it in a cryptic way, like it was something really awful, and it kind of creeped me out for some reason. Maybe you remember what I'm referring to...

[mielazul]

Anyone who has played any electric guitar at all would know your assessment is right. A guitar question for you, since I've never played a double-neck: do you need/should you turn the volume down or off on the one not being played, then volume up when you go back to it? Or are both kept volume up and live all the time?

Well, you could do it either way - my understanding is that JImmy kept the volume on for both, and kind of took advantage of the resonating strings of the guitar that he wasn't playing. I suppose the risk of that would be that you're opening yourself up to the possibility of brushing or clunking against the other neck accidentally, making some noise which would be pretty obvious when you're playing at earth-shattering volume! Anyway, I don't actually own a double-neck, and I certainly don't mean to sound like a guitar know-it-all or a cranky newbie. I think this forum is cool. One of the coolest things so far as I've been exploring around here was in the live section, where someone found some live tapes in his basement from '77 and other members kind of guided him through the process of salvaging it, and he finally posted some of it and said that this is the first time anyone besides 30 people have heard it. It was really cool. Glad to be here.

[Percys_Plant]

The thing that kind of stuck in my mind about that was when someone said that there was something between Jimmy and Robert that he can't mention...something worse than Jimmy not going to Karac's funeral. This person said it in a cryptic way, like it was something really awful, and it kind of creeped me out for some reason. Maybe you remember what I'm referring to...

Is it this quote?:

BRAD TOLINKSI: I don't really get what Robert has against reworking that unit. Maybe it's just what he's said on the surface of it, which is that Led Zeppelin was John Bonham. It's not a bad reason, it's pretty legitimate. But there seems to be something between Jimmy and Robert, and Robert doesn't want to go there, and Jimmy certainly won't go there. Robert is his own man now, and I think if it turned into a Zeppelin project, I don't know if he'd still be able to be his own man.

Or?

GYL CORRINGAN-DEVLIN: They played well together, but they never talked well together. It's a strange relationship because they love each other, they really do, but they hate each other as well. People love to say it's about which one is the front man, but I never thought that's what it was. If they weren't both musicians, they wouldn't have anything in common at all.

BILL CURBISHLEY: However much I still urge Page to call Robert, go have some lunch, just hang out he can't do it. They're two different animals. Totally different animals.

------------------

Man, reading all that again is pretty depressing.

[Percys_Plant]

Ooh, here's the one I think you're talking about:

DAVID BATES: I believe Jim had got up to his old politics, in terms of the way he was treating band members. You see, there's a big elephant in the room, and no one talks about it. There are things from way back - some very heavy things that really hurt Robert that were never addressed. The issue of Jimmy not being at Karac's funeral is part of it, but it's not all of it. It gets even bigger than that, and when you start delving into it and you hear the stories, you sit there and go, "Are these people his mates? Do they not realize what this man is going through?" I'm not a pyschologist or a therapist, so if you think I'm going to be the one who goes, "There's the elephant, let's fucking deal with it," you're wrong. I'd just hope that Robert and Jimmy could sit down and talk about it. But you know what, the elephant is so fucking big now; I don't know if they ever will. It's okay when Jim is making overtures to Robert, but eventually the overtures will stop, and then we're back to where we were before.

[Shadecatcher]

Well, you could do it either way - my understanding is that JImmy kept the volume on for both, and kind of took advantage of the resonating strings of the guitar that he wasn't playing. I suppose the risk of that would be that you're opening yourself up to the possibility of brushing or clunking against the other neck accidentally, making some noise which would be pretty obvious when you're playing at earth-shattering volume! Anyway, I don't actually own a double-neck, and I certainly don't mean to sound like a guitar know-it-all or a cranky newbie. I think this forum is cool. One of the coolest things so far as I've been exploring around here was in the live section, where someone found some live tapes in his basement from '77 and other members kind of guided him through the process of salvaging it, and he finally posted some of it and said that this is the first time anyone besides 30 people have heard it. It was really cool. Glad to be here.

That's what I was thinking...the strings on the neck you are not playing would resonate because it's essentially one solid body. If they are tuned differently I can't think you'd want that. All conjecture on my part as my knowledge of guitar is limited now; haven't played in many years and I switched from electric to classical toward the end. One of my great pleasures though was helping my then 15 year old son buy his first Les Paul, which he still has amongst the other equipment that takes up real estate in my house.

[TheStairwayRemainsTheSame]

One that really kills me is how someone described Jimmy as only wanting to reunite for merchandising reasons

[mielazul]

Ooh, here's the one I think you're talking about:

DAVID BATES: I believe Jim had got up to his old politics, in terms of the way he was treating band members. You see, there's a big elephant in the room, and no one talks about it. There are things from way back - some very heavy things that really hurt Robert that were never addressed. The issue of Jimmy not being at Karac's funeral is part of it, but it's not all of it. It gets even bigger than that, and when you start delving into it and you hear the stories, you sit there and go, "Are these people his mates? Do they not realize what this man is going through?" I'm not a pyschologist or a therapist, so if you think I'm going to be the one who goes, "There's the elephant, let's fucking deal with it," you're wrong. I'd just hope that Robert and Jimmy could sit down and talk about it. But you know what, the elephant is so fucking big now; I don't know if they ever will. It's okay when Jim is making overtures to Robert, but eventually the overtures will stop, and then we're back to where we were before.

Yeah, that's the quote. That really made me wonder how bad it is. It's the way it's just hinted at that made me kind of creeped out. Anyway, it's all a private affair between them...but as an outsider, I really think that they made it to the top of the mountain, so to speak, as Led Zeppelin, and I guess that kind of journey will always leave you wounded as you come back down...if it doesn't kill you.

[jabe]

Well, you could do it either way - my understanding is that JImmy kept the volume on for both, and kind of took advantage of the resonating strings of the guitar that he wasn't playing. I suppose the risk of that would be that you're opening yourself up to the possibility of brushing or clunking against the other neck accidentally, making some noise which would be pretty obvious when you're playing at earth-shattering volume! Anyway, I don't actually own a double-neck, and I certainly don't mean to sound like a guitar know-it-all or a cranky newbie. I think this forum is cool. One of the coolest things so far as I've been exploring around here was in the live section, where someone found some live tapes in his basement from '77 and other members kind of guided him through the process of salvaging it, and he finally posted some of it and said that this is the first time anyone besides 30 people have heard it. It was really cool. Glad to be here.

Thanks for the props mielazul, and welcome aboard! It was a cool process once the tapes were "rediscovered" as it were, until they were released for worldwide consumption. Glad to see the thread gets active hits. Believe I'll give ALS a listen in a few.

I'm about a third of the way through the book. Taking my time. So far to me, money well spent.