the chase Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Can't believe how catty and petty all this has turned out. Baker and Bonzo are apples and oranges, but a quick listen to any of Zep's live Elvis or Rockabilly jams within WLL show Bonzo's unmistakeable ability to "swing". And Baker's drumming on "Sunshine" is unprecedented, leaving many drummers baffled. This whole thing is almost as invalid as trying to argue that Chet Atkins was a better guitarist than Page. Yes Baker was a early innovator, but actually many rock drummers can't even play/imitate some of his jazzier stuff. Agreed. But it's his own big yap causing all the trouble. It's not like anyone just woke up this morning ready to bash Ginger Baker for no reason. Go over to Blabbermouth and see how much commotion his comments caused today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Yes indeed, I don't think anyone on this thread has trashed Bakers talent, quite the contrary. I believe everyone here recognizes Baker as one of the greatest drummers of all time, the problem is he is also a complete dick. The fact Baker chooses to trash other musicians shows how truly insecure he is especially when it comes to his drumming. Therein lay the irony, everyone knows Baker is one of the best, however I don't believe Baker feels this way about himself and that is truly sad. He is one of those poor bastards who has a vision of perfection, unfortunately that state is unattainable and combined with a "I must be the best" attitude has him pulling an endless goal he can never reach akin to Sisyphus and his boulder. You know, I really pity this poor man, he is a victim of his own impossible standards. Edited June 14, 2015 by IpMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stairway is NOT stolen Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Currently listening to 'Toad' by Cream. There is only one word I would use to describe this, and that is - Boring. Moby dick is more interesting. All Baker is doing is repeating everything over and over again. Bonham is doing all sorts of things in Moby dick, and it's all different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmie ray Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Ginger Baker was an awesome drummer. Jack Bruce was an awesome bassist. I could give a crap about what they said, after that - but to say they sucked is pretty ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) Ginger Baker is a million times the drummer Lars Ulrich is. One of the them revolutionised drumming, the other is a bog standard heavy metal plodder. Edited June 21, 2015 by Mook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NealR2000 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Ginger is a truly fantastic drummer. Ginger and Jack's attitude towards the likes of Led Zeppelin stems from their anger at Zeppelin's immense success and fame, and particularly their financial success. That generation of musicians received very inconsistent levels of management. On one side, you had many who were blatantly fleeced while the likes of Zeppelin got rich-for-life care. I'm not necessarily saying Ginger and Jack were ripped off, but they didn't receive quite the same level of managerial honesty and the clever strategy that Zeppelin did. Ginger, particularly, ended up flat broke, although I will add that a lot was due to his own life choices. This kind of experience can make you a little testy when it comes to being asked what your opinions are of the musicianship of your more successful contemporaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigante Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I love both Bonzo's drumming and drum sound. I don't think Ginger Baker's playing has ever even registered with me. Which is what this stuff should come down to: personal preference, not a question of 'better'. Ginger may very well be a 'better' drummer than Maureen Tucker, but his playing doesn't say anything to me, while I love Mo's primal two-drums-played-standing-up approach. That's what counts. As an aside, what always makes me laugh when Ginger comments on Bonzo, is that even now he thinks of Bonham as a young upstart! He was on about it again a few months back: 'John Bonham once said there's only two drummers, me and Ginger Baker - and I thought 'cheeky little b*stard!' It's the idea that anyone can think of Bonzo as just a 'cheeky little b*stard' that cracks me up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emily008 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) Baker and Bonham are both great drummers. To me, it all boils down to the fact that one is overtly pretentious (since he chooses to be an absolute pompous twit!), while the other was more genuine and rockin'! I prefer genuine, 'sloppy' drumming to overtly pretentious shit! Any guy who says that he's "studied" drumming is an asshole, IMHO! Drumming is an art! Stop making it so "academic"! Comparing Bonham's drumming to Baker's drumming, is like comparing something dynamic, exciting and spontaneous to something that is technically 'correct' but at the same time, comes off as overly-thought out and rather boring! Edited June 23, 2015 by Emily008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I prefer genuine, 'sloppy' drumming to overtly pretentious shit! Any guy who says that he's "studied" drumming is an asshole, IMHO! Drumming is an art! Stop making it so "academic"! John Bonham went for a few lessons during his teenage years & said that he wished he'd stuck in with reading & writing drum music. He was clearly well versed in snare & kit rudiments, a quick watch of Moby Dick from the Albert Hall will tell you that. If someone is studying something they love & trying to improve themself then I don't see how that makes them an 'asshole', you can understand written music & be the greatest technician around and still be very genuine in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonzoFanatic4880 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Ginger is a wind up merchant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrycja Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 ^ Well said, BonzoFanatic. Baker's comments are disappointing if not all that surprising. Bonzo was an awesome drummer, almost prescient in his feel - it was always spot on just so. To Emily's point about an 'academic' approach, well similar jealousies were expressed about Shakespeare being an 'upstart crow' by rivals who couldn't believe that someone who didn't go to university could be so good. The point being that there are many ways to learn, be it formal or not, and Bonzo absorbed everything, and had the ability and drive to make it his own. That Zep's orbit was so much larger than Cream's is due to a number of factors, but putting fame aside (even though it's undoubtedly a factor in Baker's snide remarks), Ginger's criticism has no substance when you look at Bonzo's body of work - so dynamic in range of expression and skill and feel. I'm not a percussion aficionado and don't listen to solely drums (but for Bonzo outtakes and some Buddy Rich work, both mesmerizing), so I can only respond to what moves me - kind of primitive, but genuine. To this day, nobody moves me like Bonzo's groove do. Ginger's way off and he should just stand down, shut up, and play. The comments about Bonzo not even being a musician, well, saying such a thing speaks more about GB than any of his comments about Bonzo ever could. Look, he was a really young guy when he was thrust into this huge fame hurricane, and in navigating through that, passed on as still a young guy and look how much he accomplished. It just strains the bounds of courtesy to speak ill of the dear and departed, particularly when his family and friends are around to read it. Baker's been around way longer and still has yet to learn it, even if he were right, but he's not, which make his comments that much worse! Bonzo had his demons, and paid the ultimate price. Baker seems like he's fried, which is sad to see, but also lucid enough that he's responsible for his comments. What a weird, unapproachable guy.... Being around Baker seems akin to hugging a cactus. Whatever his flaws, Bonzo came across as a guy who was a true blue, there no matter what, a fun guy to have a game of pool with, or a fun, interesting chat over a pint or two. It's no wonder Ginger's got the Salieri syndrome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobGordon35 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 "People hadn't really taken much notice of drums before Krupa. And Ginger Baker was responsible for the same thing in rock. Rock music had been around for a few years before Baker, but he was the first to come out with this 'new' attitude-that a drummer could be a forward musician in a rock band, and not something that was stuck in the background and forgotten about. I don't think anyone can ever put Ginger Baker down. Of course, everyone has their own idea of when Baker was at this peak. I thought he fantastic when he played with the Graham Bond Organization. It's a pity American audiences didn't see that band, because it really was a fantastic group-Ginger Bajer, Jack Bruce and Graham Bond. I think Baker was really more into jazz than rock. He does play with a jazz influence. He's always doing things in 5/4 and 3/4 tempos. Unfortunately he's always been a very weird sort of bloke. You can't really get to know him...he just won't allow it. Ginger's thing as a drummer is that he was always himself." - John Bonham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirchzep27 Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Rock journalists have been pinning rock artists against each other for decades now with these pop questions in interviews....if the person was to give a non response answer, it would never get published. The whole thing is stupid. It almost seems like some writers are playing favorites, which is ridiculous too... Its art. I mean, who cares. Ofcourse someone isnt gonna like someone or whatever. Its gossip, its negative when made into something its not meant to be...its just in the moment opinion, response in a five minute interview with a rock artist. Not all artists like each others art...so who cares, its ok, it doesnt matter. And really...i think there is mutual respect with them all, being artists...away from business aspects. Edited July 3, 2015 by middlezep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
price.pittsburgh Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Seems like most people who bash other artists are clearly envious of the massive success of the one they're bashing. Baker insulting Bonham and Moon, as well as the Stones in a different interview, by claiming they aren't very good musicians and that Charlie Watts was the best musician in the band. Then as discussed here before, we have Keith Richards insulting Zeppelin and Bonham in particular. Then Pete Townsend once said that he played a Beatles track without the lyrics and it was bloody awful. Note that the bands being insulted on these examples are Zeppelin The Stones and The Beatles. Basically the three biggest bands ever. So it's clear the insults come from people who wished they had been as big or don't like that someone was as big as them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril46 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I believe it all comes down to impact, especially emotional, and that is why Emily and Patrycha, two women, had much to say about this entire matter. Bonham's Impact literally leaves a huge impression on everything he plays, and guys and GIRLS feel it. Ginger is great and some of his stuff anyone may notice, but a lot of his playing IMO is more academically or technically brilliant. Bonzo makes you want to move, or jump, or do cartwheels. Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Before I get started on the rest of your post, can you just confirm how it's possible to write 'a few one hit wonders'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTM Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) After seeing this video, Clapton can go F_ himself too. I honestly don't even know where the phrase Clapton Is God came from in the early years. Clapton wrote a few 1 hit wonders and majority of kids today dont even know who Clapton is. Clapton never even wrote any Rock Anthems to be called a God. F_ Clapton again, maybe if his son didnt fall out a Hotel window, maybe Clapton would be in a better mood I dunno, youngsters today....They know fuck all. Edited July 14, 2015 by JTM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dutcher Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 Baker's rhythms were more advanced than either Bonham or Moon. Polyrhythms not just 5/4 and 3/4. Just cause he did alot of drugs doesn't change that. Cantankerous prick. But not wrong. A jazz player that played great rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porgie66 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 8 hours ago, Dan Dutcher said: Baker's rhythms were more advanced than either Bonham or Moon. Polyrhythms not just 5/4 and 3/4. Just cause he did alot of drugs doesn't change that. Cantankerous prick. But not wrong. A jazz player that played great rock. Absolute rubbish. Baker , a jazz player ??? Gimme a break. Swing is paramount , and Ginger couldn't fucking swing. Jazz player...LOL. Bonham had way more finesse, swing ( ironically ), a beautiful sound, incredible funk and feel, and his hands were way more developed than Ginger's single stroke takka takka takka chops. Bonzo played more interesting, and technically demanding combinations of rudiments and ideas than Baker. I just can't abide this nonsense about Ginger over Bonham. He was a huge influence no doubt, but nowhere near Bonzo's abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reids Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 2 hours ago, porgie66 said: Absolute rubbish. Baker , a jazz player ??? Gimme a break. Swing is paramount , and Ginger couldn't fucking swing. Jazz player...LOL. Bonham had way more finesse, swing ( ironically ), a beautiful sound, incredible funk and feel, and his hands were way more developed than Ginger's single stroke takka takka takka chops. Bonzo played more interesting, and technically demanding combinations of rudiments and ideas than Baker. I just can't abide this nonsense about Ginger over Bonham. He was a huge influence no doubt, but nowhere near Bonzo's abilities. +1 ... drop the 🎤 ... R😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 7 hours ago, porgie66 said: Absolute rubbish. Baker , a jazz player ??? Gimme a break. Swing is paramount , and Ginger couldn't fucking swing. Jazz player...LOL. Bonham had way more finesse, swing ( ironically ), a beautiful sound, incredible funk and feel, and his hands were way more developed than Ginger's single stroke takka takka takka chops. Bonzo played more interesting, and technically demanding combinations of rudiments and ideas than Baker. I just can't abide this nonsense about Ginger over Bonham. He was a huge influence no doubt, but nowhere near Bonzo's abilities. I agree with that 99%. Personally I don't think Bonham ever thought of Baker as an influence. He may have said nice things about Baker in interviews but that was John. As far as I know he wasn't one to disparage other musicians. John and Baker were contemporaries so I really don't think Bonham would be listening to Baker in the same way he listened to his true influences so there is no Baker in John's playing. Bonham = A true talent with the skillz to back it up but Humble, complimentary toward other musicians and generally a nice guy to know. Baker = Talented? yes but definitely overrated, A self important egotistical asshole who would never let you forget how great a drummer he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainbowElf Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 3 hours ago, hummingbird69 said: I agree with that 99%. Personally I don't think Bonham ever thought of Baker as an influence. He may have said nice things about Baker in interviews but that was John. As far as I know he wasn't one to disparage other musicians. John and Baker were contemporaries so I really don't think Bonham would be listening to Baker in the same way he listened to his true influences so there is no Baker in John's playing. Bonham = A true talent with the skillz to back it up but Humble, complimentary toward other musicians and generally a nice guy to know. Baker = Talented? yes but definitely overrated, A self important egotistical asshole who would never let you forget how great a drummer he was. Carmine Appice was an influence to John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Bones Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 20 hours ago, Dan Dutcher said: Baker's rhythms were more advanced than either Bonham or Moon. Polyrhythms not just 5/4 and 3/4. Just cause he did alot of drugs doesn't change that. Cantankerous prick. But not wrong. A jazz player that played great rock. This is an incorrect statement as Bonzo did indeed play in polyrhythms on several Zep tunes such as Fool in the Rain & Hots on for Nowhere just to name two. Then there are several songs where Bonzo is in one time while Page & Jones are playing in another. Zep did some seriously complicated stuff while making it sound simple. Therein lay one of the genius and musicianship of Zeppelin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirchzep27 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 I think Chris Slade with the firm had an interesting eclectic style like Ginger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porgie66 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 12 hours ago, Mr.Bones said: This is an incorrect statement as Bonzo did indeed play in polyrhythms on several Zep tunes such as Fool in the Rain & Hots on for Nowhere just to name two. Then there are several songs where Bonzo is in one time while Page & Jones are playing in another. Zep did some seriously complicated stuff while making it sound simple. Therein lay one of the genius and musicianship of Zeppelin. Thank you ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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