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1,021 posts in this topic

On 6/1/2016 at 7:28 PM, JohnOsbourne said:

He can say it now, but there's evidence that he was well aware of Spirit's music around the time he wrote STH.  By denying such knowledge, he either comes across as evasive, or his recollection of other, non-Spirit influences can be called into question.  The time to acknowledge Spirit while simultaneously denying particular influence by Taurus was at the very beginning.  This would have undercut much of the plaintiff's claims.  Unfortunately Jimmy's incompetent lawyer hasn't advised him appropriately.

IMO, you're assuming a great deal: 

1)  Page would hire and retain an incompetent lawyer for such an important case when he can afford the best lawyers money can buy and with so much at stake.

2) Page is the band member calling the shots during this trial.  From what I've read Plant stopping dancing to Page's tune in 1980 if not earlier.  

3) Plant would put up with an incompetent lawyer on their legal team.   

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On 6/2/2016 at 1:28 AM, JohnOsbourne said:

He can say it now, but there's evidence that he was well aware of Spirit's music around the time he wrote STH.  By denying such knowledge, he either comes across as evasive, or his recollection of other, non-Spirit influences can be called into question.  The time to acknowledge Spirit while simultaneously denying particular influence by Taurus was at the very beginning.  This would have undercut much of the plaintiff's claims.  Unfortunately Jimmy's incompetent lawyer hasn't advised him appropriately.

This is rather a remarkable post. Led Zeppelin's lawyer is playing this by the book and coping extremely well with Malofiy's shenanigans. 

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16 minutes ago, Cookie0024 said:

This is rather a remarkable post. Led Zeppelin's lawyer is playing this by the book and coping extremely well with Malofiy's shenanigans. 

Malofiy is a jackass, no question.  But a top-flight lawyer (considering what Page must be paying him) would have made himself aware of any incriminating statements pointing to his client's familiarity with Spirit's music.  It's not like Jimmy was an obscure musician, his public statements are not that hard to find given the resources, even accounting for the primitive state of media in the 70's.  Page has set himself up here, if not for a fall, then at least to cast some suspicion in the eyes of the jury.   His lawyer deserves a big share of the blame here (although it's possible Page hired himself a yes-man). 

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1 hour ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Malofiy is a jackass, no question.  But a top-flight lawyer (considering what Page must be paying him) would have made himself aware of any incriminating statements pointing to his client's familiarity with Spirit's music.  It's not like Jimmy was an obscure musician, his public statements are not that hard to find given the resources, even accounting for the primitive state of media in the 70's.  Page has set himself up here, if not for a fall, then at least to cast some suspicion in the eyes of the jury.   His lawyer deserves a big share of the blame here (although it's possible Page hired himself a yes-man). 

Suspicion of any kind would by default have to infer Taurus was a one of a kind, unique composition of which STH copied directly from. The fact is, the several other songs, contemporary & classic, which have a similar structure exist which pre-date Taurus by years, decades, and even centuries. Nothing else really matters once this is proven. You cannot unmake hundreds of years of music history due to a foggy memory, accidental or otherwise. Also, from Page's statements you cannot prove is is being either evasive or untruthful, however at 74 years old he can easily claim a less then positronic quality memory.

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30 minutes ago, IpMan said:

Suspicion of any kind would by default have to infer Taurus was a one of a kind, unique composition of which STH copied directly from. The fact is, the several other songs, contemporary & classic, which have a similar structure exist which pre-date Taurus by years, decades, and even centuries. Nothing else really matters once this is proven. You cannot unmake hundreds of years of music history due to a foggy memory, accidental or otherwise. Also, from Page's statements you cannot prove is is being either evasive or untruthful, however at 74 years old he can easily claim a less then positronic quality memory.

Yes, it's a common musical progression, but the issue before the jury is whether a *specific* song (Taurus) influenced Zep in composing STH, not Davey Graham or some 16th century composer.  And while Page has always cited Graham as an acoustic influence, it seems he didn't attribute influence on structures like STH until his deposition, the canonical account had been that it was a moment of inspiration in the Welsh countryside, no?  Plus his denial of familiarity with Spirit's music seems like a stretch, age-related or not.  I'm simply saying, the jury is going to see too many things that don't quite add up.  All of these things should have been thought through better before letting it go to court.

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3 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Yes, it's a common musical progression, but the issue before the jury is whether a *specific* song (Taurus) influenced Zep in composing STH, not Davey Graham or some 16th century composer.  And while Page has always cited Graham as an acoustic influence, it seems he didn't attribute influence on structures like STH until his deposition, the canonical account had been that it was a moment of inspiration in the Welsh countryside, no?  Plus his denial of familiarity with Spirit's music seems like a stretch, age-related or not.  I'm simply saying, the jury is going to see too many things that don't quite add up.  All of these things should have been thought through better before letting it go to court.

Again, you are wrong. Please explain how Jimmy could be held at fault for being inspired by a song which itself had been inspired by a song, which itself had been inspired by another song and on and on. I understand anything is possible, however, on the slim chance the prosecution wins, I can almost guarantee the decision would be overturned on appeal based on the completely non-unique and un-original nature of the supposed source / inspiration material of Taurus.

This whole argument is ridiculous. We are talking about THREE NOTES of the first arpeggio, after that the two songs progressions vary. Taurus is a straight forward descending structure in four measures, STH ascends for three measures before descending the final two. Yet the first three notes of both songs being the same automatically translates as plagiarism? 

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7 hours ago, IpMan said:

Again, you are wrong. Please explain how Jimmy could be held at fault for being inspired by a song which itself had been inspired by a song, which itself had been inspired by another song and on and on. I understand anything is possible, however, on the slim chance the prosecution wins, I can almost guarantee the decision would be overturned on appeal based on the completely non-unique and un-original nature of the supposed source / inspiration material of Taurus.

This whole argument is ridiculous. We are talking about THREE NOTES of the first arpeggio, after that the two songs progressions vary. Taurus is a straight forward descending structure in four measures, STH ascends for three measures before descending the final two. Yet the first three notes of both songs being the same automatically translates as plagiarism? 

I agree with the overall thrust of your position, but again, that is not the aspect of copyright law the jury is going to be asked to evaluate.  In fact, the songs to me don't sound that much alike apart from the small section of notes in question.  (Bias aside, STH is majestic, while Taurus is just crap.)  However, the plaintiffs are claiming that Jimmy came up with the idea after being exposed to Spirit's music, and some of his subsequent actions convey just that impression.  I think you are overstating the barriers the plaintiffs have to clear to win this thing.  (And yes, it will get tied up in appeals for a long time, but that won't make it go away.) 

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9 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

I agree with the overall thrust of your position, but again, that is not the aspect of copyright law the jury is going to be asked to evaluate.  In fact, the songs to me don't sound that much alike apart from the small section of notes in question.  (Bias aside, STH is majestic, while Taurus is just crap.)  However, the plaintiffs are claiming that Jimmy came up with the idea after being exposed to Spirit's music, and some of his subsequent actions convey just that impression.  I think you are overstating the barriers the plaintiffs have to clear to win this thing.  (And yes, it will get tied up in appeals for a long time, but that won't make it go away.) 

I must concede your point here, you make a good argument with this. Since the jury is made up of lay people, and the scope is much narrower that I thought, it really can go either way. We can only hope the jury can cut through the BS and see the truth. Time will tell.

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I cannot hear one bit of  Taurus in Stairway to Heaven. 

Taurus is latin for bullock.

 

Nothing to do with a stairway to heaven.

 

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On 5/27/2016 at 6:04 PM, IpMan said:

Sorry mate but that dog don't hunt. Page is 72 years old and anyone familiar with the man knows of his drug use in the 70's. I am sure the jury would take an interview from 76' along side Jimmy's current testimony and draw the obvious conclusion...he can't remember every word from every interview over the past 48 years, nor should he be expected to. Jimmy covered his ass in his deposition when he made mention of influences for the song, nothing else needed to be said nor remembered. I mean really, is Jimmy supposed to remember what he had for breakfast on October 20th 1976 as well?

Have you seen some of the idiotic jury decisions over the last 30 years? 

On 5/27/2016 at 6:06 PM, Balthazor said:

Well sure, one can never underestimate the ability of jurors to display an alarming level of stupidity.

Absolutely. Who knows what kind of troglodytes they pick for the jury? Unless I am on that jury, I would not assume anything as far as musical knowledge or critical reasoning abilities of said jury.

My fear is that the jury will be full of music ignoramuses...the types who just listen to whatever corporate Top 40 schlock is fed to them. Or worse...that the jury will be made up of jealous Who and Rolling Stones fans eager to put the hammer down on Led Zeppelin.

Goddammit...where is my jury duty notice?!?

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On 6/8/2016 at 2:23 AM, boylollipop said:

I cannot hear one bit of  Taurus in Stairway to Heaven. 

Taurus is latin for bullock.

 

Nothing to do with a stairway to heaven.

 

Perhaps you should have your ears checked?

Look, you don't have to agree with the lawsuit and still be able to hear the similarity in the opening bars of the song. The similarity has been noted amongst fans who had both albums since the beginning.

That does not mean I think the lawsuit is valid. But to deny any similarity makes one look like a deaf idiot not to be taken seriously on a music forum.

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7 minutes ago, Strider said:

Goddammit...where is my jury duty notice?!?

I doubt you would make it through voir dire. ;) 

Edited by Ddladner

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Just now, Ddladner said:

I doubt you would make it through voir dire. ;) 

Oh you underestimate my powers of persuasion. I can cloak my Led Zeppelin love pretty well.

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5 minutes ago, Strider said:

Oh you underestimate my powers of persuasion. I can cloak my Led Zeppelin love pretty well.

Please stand if you have ever seen LZ in concert.

Please continue to stand if you have seen LZ in concert more than once.

Please continue to stand if you have seen LZ in concert more than half a dozen times.

If you are still standing, you may be dismissed from this jury selection.

 

:) You may not have to say a word!

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8 minutes ago, Strider said:

Oh you underestimate my powers of persuasion. I can cloak my Led Zeppelin love pretty well.

Already half way there with the haircut :-)

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2 minutes ago, Ddladner said:

Please stand if you have ever seen LZ in concert.

Please continue to stand if you have seen LZ in concert more than once.

Please continue to stand if you have seen LZ in concert more than half a dozen times.

If you are still standing, you may be dismissed from this jury selection.

 

:) You may not have to say a word!

Yes, but since nobody in that court room is going to know me, I don't have to stand at all. I can just withhold that information and nobody will be the wiser.

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4 minutes ago, JTM said:

Already half way there with the haircut :-)

How did you know?!? ;)

 

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5 minutes ago, Strider said:

Yes, but since nobody in that court room is going to know me, I don't have to stand at all. I can just withhold that information and nobody will be the wiser.

:o 

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1 hour ago, Strider said:

Perhaps you should have your ears checked?

Look, you don't have to agree with the lawsuit and still be able to hear the similarity in the opening bars of the song. The similarity has been noted amongst fans who had both albums since the beginning.

That does not mean I think the lawsuit is valid. But to deny any similarity makes one look like a deaf idiot not to be taken seriously on a music forum.

- So what similarity are you referring to.

Be specific!- which notes are identical and when are they played?

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1 hour ago, Strider said:

Yes, but since nobody in that court room is going to know me, I don't have to stand at all. I can just withhold that information and nobody will be the wiser.

Oh, Ken Zeppelin, yes, fine fellow, runs the bodega on Sunset I believe. So, what sort of trouble is old Ken into these days?

Jokes aside, Stairway is considered the cornerstone tune in the Zeppelin catalogue to many and Jimmy knows this. I believe he will fight to his dying breath to protect this and the Zeppelin legacy. Should they lose most likely Page will appeal and take the case all the way to the US Supreme Court if necessary. However, should the plaintiff prevail, the likelihood of the Circuit Court to overturn the verdict is pretty strong. The higher up the chain one goes on appeal, the greater the burden (in civil cases that is, in criminal it is mostly procedural error they care about).

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22 minutes ago, boylollipop said:

- So what similarity are you referring to.

Be specific!- which notes are identical and when are they played?

The similarity that has been talked about for OVER FORTY years, the similarity that is being discussed in the Court Room. The notes that Mark Andes thinks were nicked from Taurus.... It's just a three note sequence, but it's the way those notes are played...Now it's all down to the Jury. Fingers crossed that "Spirit" will lose.....

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On 6/3/2016 at 8:42 PM, JohnOsbourne said:

Yes, it's a common musical progression, but the issue before the jury is whether a *specific* song (Taurus) influenced Zep in composing STH, not Davey Graham or some 16th century composer.  

If it's public domain, it's public domain and the issue becomes whether Randy Wolfe has any claim to it, which he doesn't.

On 6/3/2016 at 8:42 PM, JohnOsbourne said:

And while Page has always cited Graham as an acoustic influence, it seems he didn't attribute influence on structures like STH until his deposition, the canonical account had been that it was a moment of inspiration in the Welsh countryside, no?  

Page has always been consistent in talking about Bach in relation to Stairway's roots, and he began playing a snatch of Bach's "Bourree" in the "Heartbreaker" solo in 1970. He cited Bach many times in the 1980s when was speaking more to the press than he had been in the 1970s, though in Jimmy Page: Tangents Within a Framework (1984, Omnibus Press) author Howard Mylett cites a much earlier interview by Page in which he talks about transposing Bach from Dm to Am. None of this is cited on the Wikipedia page, which seems really weird to me.  The Bach connection was such common knowledge that music teachers used to do side-by-side Stairway-Bach demonstrations to show their students how cool and relevant classical music is. But that was in the 1970s. Information isn't what it used to be. 

On 6/3/2016 at 8:42 PM, JohnOsbourne said:

 Plus his denial of familiarity with Spirit's music seems like a stretch, age-related or not.  I'm simply saying, the jury is going to see too many things that don't quite add up.  All of these things should have been thought through better before letting it go to court.

It does seem like a bit of a stretch, especially considering that Led Zep was jamming Spirit's "Fresh Garbage" into the Garnett Mimms "As Long As I Have You" medley leading to "Killing Floor/Lemon Song".  "Fresh Garbage" is on Spirit's first album, along with Taurus, so somebody in Zep probably listened to it in 1969, though they were never touring together as has been suggested.   What an LA County jury will make of all this probably depends on what random movie some of them think they're in that week. :wacko:

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It's a preposterous lawsuit that the estate of Randy California will lose.

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