Lawsuit over Stairway to Heaven

[Ddladner]

13 hours ago, KellyGirl said:

Thanks for Rolling Stone link  Ddladner

All the credit goes to The Pagemeister for that one.   It was a great article with some entertaining recaps of the trial.  Thank YOU for the information you've provided.  It's nice to come to one thread to see all the latest news regarding this very bizarre trial.  I suspect Jimmy and Robert have asked themselves many times if this is for real or are they getting punked.  If it brings them closer together in any way (I'm recalling Jimmy winking at Robert which sounds very friendly), then that may be the silver lining in this craziness.  

[Balthazor]

Another new Rolling Stone article, this one with some disturbing bits:

The Spirit/"Taurus" side may have scored, however, when they called their expert witness Dr. Alexander Stewart, a musicologist, professional saxophonist and music professor at the University of Vermont. The most credible, sympathetic and compelling witness to take the stand in the trial other than Page himself, Dr. Stewart cogently and clearly explained the sophisticated music theory at issue for the first time during the proceedings.

More significantly, he powerfully described the close similarities between the compositions, and scrappily held his own under a tough cross-examination by Zeppelin's counsel. Particularly damning was Dr. Stewart's analysis that, in their chord progressions, both "Taurus" and "Stairway" "in an unusual way" skip the "E" before resolving on an "A" note. Under oath, he claimed that this was unlike any of the 65 "prior art" examples of compositions using similar chordal and compositional structures submitted by the defense (including Henry Purcell's "Dido’s Lament," the Beatles' "Michelle" and the standard "My Funny Valentine").

Stewart also affirmed that none of the "prior art" examples have the "unique and distinctive elements" that "Taurus" and "Stairway" share, and that are protectable under copyright law. Dr. Stewart also pointed out that the analyses presented as evidence by the defense’s expert witness, the noted musicologist Lawrence Ferrara, did not take into account the treble clef in the sheet music for "Taurus," which accounts for "55 percent of the notes [in the song]." "Of the 43 different pitches between the compositions, not a single one is different," Stewart testified.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/mary-poppins-introduced-in-led-zeppelin-stairway-to-heaven-trial-20160616

Hopefully Zeppelin's defense will point out or has pointed out that Stairway features an ascending melody on top of the descending arpeggio, something which Taurus lacks. I'm not sure how they can be considered the same when they are, in fact, different. But this whole case was baloney from the beginning. Just some money-grubbing hyenas suing on behalf of a dead guy who never seemed to care enough to file a lawsuit himself.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Balthazor

[Cookie0024]

10 hours ago, Walter said:

Yep, Cookie has been doing a great job relaying information via Twitter!

Thank you!

[Cecil.]

3 hours ago, Balthazor said:

Another new Rolling Stone article, this one with some disturbing bits:

The Spirit/"Taurus" side may have scored, however, when they called their expert witness Dr. Alexander Stewart, a musicologist, professional saxophonist and music professor at the University of Vermont. The most credible, sympathetic and compelling witness to take the stand in the trial other than Page himself, Dr. Stewart cogently and clearly explained the sophisticated music theory at issue for the first time during the proceedings.

More significantly, he powerfully described the close similarities between the compositions, and scrappily held his own under a tough cross-examination by Zeppelin's counsel. Particularly damning was Dr. Stewart's analysis that, in their chord progressions, both "Taurus" and "Stairway" "in an unusual way" skip the "E" before resolving on an "A" note. Under oath, he claimed that this was unlike any of the 65 "prior art" examples of compositions using similar chordal and compositional structures submitted by the defense (including Henry Purcell's "Dido’s Lament," the Beatles' "Michelle" and the standard "My Funny Valentine").

Stewart also affirmed that none of the "prior art" examples have the "unique and distinctive elements" that "Taurus" and "Stairway" share, and that are protectable under copyright law. Dr. Stewart also pointed out that the analyses presented as evidence by the defense’s expert witness, the noted musicologist Lawrence Ferrara, did not take into account the treble clef in the sheet music for "Taurus," which accounts for "55 percent of the notes [in the song]." "Of the 43 different pitches between the compositions, not a single one is different," Stewart testified.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/mary-poppins-introduced-in-led-zeppelin-stairway-to-heaven-trial-20160616

Hopefully Zeppelin's defense will point out or has pointed out that Stairway features an ascending melody on top of the descending arpeggio, something which Taurus lacks. I'm not sure how they can be considered the same when they are, in fact, different. But this whole case was baloney from the beginning. Just some money-grubbing hyenas suing on behalf of a dead guy who never seemed to care enough to file a lawsuit himself.

What on Earth is a musicologist...?  is it a job.

[Cecil.]

11 hours ago, Strider said:

My favourite part about Jimmy Page's testimony...

We now know the exact size of Jimmy's record collection: 4,329 albums and 5,882 CDs!!!

Wonder if  Robert has to provide similar info, the case will go on until about 2040, while Robert waxes lyrical about each and everyone of them.

[Brigante]

Taurus is an instrumental and Robert didn't write any of the music for Stairway - so why is Robert even part of the case? This whole thing is bullshit!  

Edited June 17, 2016 by Brigante

[The Pagemeister]

 

[The Pagemeister]

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-goodman-zeppelin-copyright-harrison-allen-klein-20160616-snap-story.html

[zeplz71]

Video news report from CBS LA

http://cbsloc.al/1W2s9Vj

 

[zeplz71]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/expert-testimony-begins-at-stairway-903824

 

Malofiy is nearing the end of his 10-hour time limit, so he'll likely finish Friday morning. There's a chance Anderson could move for a directed verdict and ask the judge to rule on the case instead of the jury, which happened last fall in the copyright fight over Jay-Z's "Big Pimpin'."

If that happens, Klausner's courtroom demeanor so far isn't a good sign for Malofiy. He has sustained more than 100 objections against the attorney and has repeatedly scolded him for wasting time on fruitless lines of questioning and technology troubles.

If that doesn't happen, Anderson has indicated he will call Page, Led Zeppelin member John Paul Jones and noted musicologist Lawrence Ferrara to testify — although some of them may have to wait until Monday to take the stand.

 

[juxtiphi]

52 minutes ago, The Pagemeister said:

 

 

Not signed in

I hate this guy

[Wolfman]

I have a really bad feeling Zep is going to lose this case.  I think it's complete BS but so far the evidence is making them look bad. Hate this crap!

[Balthazor]

1 hour ago, juxtiphi said:

I hate this guy

+1

[IpMan]

17 hours ago, sixpense said:

You would be right if the trial was by judge instead of jury. Remember O.J.

Judges have enormous power, they are not just a legal referee but also determine if a case itself is valid and may rule as such beforehand regardless of jury input. Also, a judge can set aside a jury verdict if the judge believes the jury rendered an improper verdict. When jury nullification happened in the OJ case, many legal scholars were initially puzzled as to why Judge Ito did not set aside the non-guilty verdict and either, change their verdict to guilty based on presented evidence or, more likely, dismiss the jury and declare a mistrial. The final opinion was that Ito was afraid of doing either action and as a result cause mass rioting so he let the verdict stand.

[Balthazor]

17 hours ago, Strider said:

My favourite part about Jimmy Page's testimony...

We now know the exact size of Jimmy's record collection: 4,329 albums and 5,882 CDs!!!

It does strike me as a little odd that Jimmy can know with that degree of specificity exactly how many albums and CDs he's got, but not know what they are. Unless one day he decided to count them all without actually looking at them.

[Cookie0024]

Just now, Balthazor said:

It does strike me as a little odd that Jimmy can know with that degree of specificity exactly how many albums and CDs he's got, but not know what they are. Unless one day he decided to count them all without actually looking at them.

That's almost certainly what happened.

[mstork]

Just now, Balthazor said:

It does strike me as a little odd that Jimmy can know with that degree of specificity exactly how many albums and CDs he's got, but not know what they are. Unless one day he decided to count them all without actually looking at them.

I'm guessing his lawyers asked him to tally it up because owning one album in a collection of 10,000 albums does not lead to the inevitable conclusion that he'd be intimately familiar with every single track.

[Balthazor]

Just now, mstork said:

I'm guessing his lawyers asked him to tally it up because owning one album in a collection of 10,000 albums does not lead to the inevitable conclusion that he'd be intimately familiar with every single track.

Yeah you're probably right about that. I wonder how long it takes him to find that one specific song he's got a yearning to listen to.

[JTM]

1 hour ago, Balthazor said:

Yeah you're probably right about that. I wonder how long it takes him to find that one specific song he's got a yearning to listen to.

Very easy, everything will be in alphabetical order, so hardly any time at all.

[Walter]

 

[sixpense]

3 hours ago, IpMan said:

Judges have enormous power, they are not just a legal referee but also determine if a case itself is valid and may rule as such beforehand regardless of jury input. Also, a judge can set aside a jury verdict if the judge believes the jury rendered an improper verdict. When jury nullification happened in the OJ case, many legal scholars were initially puzzled as to why Judge Ito did not set aside the non-guilty verdict and either, change their verdict to guilty based on presented evidence or, more likely, dismiss the jury and declare a mistrial. The final opinion was that Ito was afraid of doing either action and as a result cause mass rioting so he let the verdict stand.

I know. 

In this case this Judge determined that the case should go to trial.

But the jury decides the case. A Judge can set aside the verdict but that is very rare. More likely, if the Plaintiff continues the shenanigans, a mistrial could be declared and everything would start all over again.  

In regards to O.J., well that would be a whole other thread............

[Balthazor]

53 minutes ago, sixpense said:

I know. 

In this case this Judge determined that the case should go to trial.

But the jury decides the case. A Judge can set aside the verdict but that is very rare. More likely, if the Plaintiff continues the shenanigans, a mistrial could be declared and everything would start all over again.  

In regards to O.J., well that would be a whole other thread............

And it makes me wonder...hey see what I did there  But seriously, I wonder if a mistrial would be good or bad for Zeppelin. Normally a mistrial tends to be good for the defendant, and in this case perhaps the Randy Wolfe estate would decide they've wasted enough money on this nonsense and just give up. But on the other hand, they could be encouraged by the fact that their case made it as far as it did, and could come back the next time with a lawyer who isn't a ridiculous boob and actually win it. The fact that the plaintiffs have a ridiculous boob for an attorney definitely helps Zeppelin here, but a second trial with someone who's actually serious and competent could be a very bad thing.

[IpMan]

1 hour ago, Balthazor said:

And it makes me wonder...hey see what I did there  But seriously, I wonder if a mistrial would be good or bad for Zeppelin. Normally a mistrial tends to be good for the defendant, and in this case perhaps the Randy Wolfe estate would decide they've wasted enough money on this nonsense and just give up. But on the other hand, they could be encouraged by the fact that their case made it as far as it did, and could come back the next time with a lawyer who isn't a ridiculous boob and actually win it. The fact that the plaintiffs have a ridiculous boob for an attorney definitely helps Zeppelin here, but a second trial with someone who's actually serious and competent could be a very bad thing.

Just an assumption here, but, Mr. Skidmore, being the executor of the estate, may only be allowed one bite at the apple per se. You see as executor he has to prove to the estate that utilizing estate monies to engage in a lawsuit is warranted. So, if there is a mistrial, he would have to prove that the use of additional funds would likely result in an affirmative verdict for the plaintiff resulting in a much higher burden Mr. Skidmore originally had to meet to utilize funds for the first go around. 

If it were Skidmore's own loot he could do whatever he wants, but when you have a fiduciary responsibility to the estate (executor) you must prove a need or a return for the use of estate funds. Especially in such a high profile case such as this. In fact, should Skidmore lose or the case be deemed a mistrial, there is the likelihood of the estate in turn suing Skidmore for compensation of estate funds.

Lawyers, gotta love em.

[Balthazor]

25 minutes ago, IpMan said:

So, if there is a mistrial, he would have to prove that the use of additional funds would likely result in an affirmative verdict for the plaintiff resulting in a much higher burden Mr. Skidmore originally had to meet to utilize funds for the first go around. 

Well but Stephen Colbert said Zeppelin was "screwed", so there is that.

Admittedly I'm looking at this from a biased point of view, and readily admit that I may have no idea what I'm talking about, but from that point of view such as it is, it seems to me that if I look at this from the perspective of the Wolfe estate, I'd see more evidence of an affirmative verdict now than before this lawsuit was launched. Before this lawsuit, I'd be thinking there's not a snowball's chance in hell that a lawsuit against the mighty Led Zeppelin regarding a small portion of an otherwise wildly different song won't be laughed out of court. Now, given that the case not only made it to trial, but all the so-called "legal experts" seem to be saying it's a total toss up as to who may prevail, I'd be thinking my chances the second time around look pretty good. Provided I hired a lawyer who wasn't a ridiculous boob. I'd be thinking, we could have won that thing if it weren't for the ridiculous boob of a lawyer who screwed it all up. The larger question for me would be whether or not the estate would even have the funds necessary for a second bite at the apple. I could be wrong, but I can't see the Randy Wolfe estate being flooded with money, and the expense of this case can't have been cheap.

Also, I suppose there is that statute of limitations issue. It would seem that if the estate did want to pursue a second lawsuit they'd need to file it pretty quickly if they wanted to get their hands on the money from the 2014 reissue. It's not like they could take a few years to think about it.

Obviously this is all hypothetical anyhow, and really the best case scenario at this point would be the jury deciding in favor of Zeppelin after a whole two minutes of deliberation.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Balthazor

[AnotherNewMember]

14 hours ago, Balthazor said:

Hopefully Zeppelin's defense will point out or has pointed out that Stairway features an ascending melody on top of the descending arpeggio, something which Taurus lacks. I'm not sure how they can be considered the same when they are, in fact, different. But this whole case was baloney from the beginning. Just some money-grubbing hyenas suing on behalf of a dead guy who never seemed to care enough to file a lawsuit himself.

I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but here's an audio clip of an interview with Randy California just a few weeks before his death. It's about STH of course...:

http://turnmeondeadman.com/randy-californias-thoughts-on-stairway-to-heaven/