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Mr_K

Page vs Millard

48 posts in this topic

Page vs Millard. I prefer Millard, warts and all.

I was listening to selections from LA 1977/June 22 & 26 today.

Rough as ever but a little more polished than the versions I first heard about 5 years ago. Better still with my headphones.

I started comparing the 2 shows to the June 21st/23rd. What a fantastic pair for the best week of live Zeppelin. 6 sold concerts. A week even better than any 6 consecutive days of Europe 73. All capped off by Mike Millard, his 2 "amateur" recordings, 21/23, one of which, by common forum consensus, should be on any top must-hear-live 5 list.

For a band that performed 100s of concerts, an anomoly. There are very few official live recordings. That I wish would change, expect will change, but understand. Jimmy Page wants to add something unique, something the bootleggers haven't created. More professionally recorded shows exist, and yet, I'm not hopeful as I should be. Consider what's been done. For what we have, more often than not, they do not make the grade for a top 5 recommended live recordings. Even the French radio program I haven't listened to from the official 2014 releases, and I haven't found a good reason to do so.

How wonderful it would be if a Mike Millard recording ever turns up for the 22nd/26th, given the fantastic job he did with what's out there. And given the strength of 22/26 in the form they are now - one may become a new top 5 if released. To take one song - I'm not sure that the best No Quarter for that week wouldn't be the 22nd.

Then I got a little angry, confused. How could one man, impersonating a handicap, with no equipment other than what he hid under a wheelchair, do more for me, to present live Zeppelin at their collective best, with a great audience rapport, than Jimmy Page, with all his expertise as a studio musician, with all his professional equipment, with all his skilled collaborators - i.e. Kramer and Shirley?

Most of my store-bought live albums sit on the shelf.

What am I missing from the official releases, RAH, BBC sessions, HTWWW, TSRTS? Is JP making a mistake by not releasing unknown shows in their primal form because they have the raw, unfinished form of a Mike Millard tape?

Should JP make a search for "lost" bootlegs, as he did for the official DVD, and release those with no touch ups?

Maybe l should listen to the official live releases again, but when I do, I always go back to the "amateur" recordings, as I'm doing now with 1977 NYC.

If someone can point a preference to JP's production of live material, I might find something that I've missed.

Thanks.

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I'll never let go of my pipe dream that someday Pontiac 1977 will be officially released on DVD, SD-blu ray, and CD.

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Nice piece Mr K. Those handful of shows Mllard did in 75 and 77 in California are priceless for any Led Head. The first time I heard LTTE 6/21/77 is what started me collecting bootlegs in 2011. It's opened a deeper love and appreciation of this amazing band.

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The first time I heard LTTE 6/21/77 is what started me collecting bootlegs in 2011. It's opened a deeper love and appreciation of this amazing band.

Exactly what happened to me. I already thought they were cool before, but DVD and TSRTS got me really hooked. Then one day I was on YouTube and I came across videos of 1977/06/21, and I haven't been the same since.

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Funny how new passions come about huh Sue?

They've been my favorite band since I was in 8th grade back in 1984. Through the years I would go through periods of time not listening to them but ever since in 2011 when I heard the opening to The Song Remains The Same and the crowd and Bonzo going off I don't think a day has gone by where I haven't listened to at least one song.

Edited by MightyLedZeppelin

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I was listening to selections from LA 1977/June 22 & 26 today.

How wonderful it would be if a Mike Millard recording ever turns up for the 22nd/26th, given the fantastic job he did with what's out there. And given the strength of 22/26 in the form they are now - one may become a new top 5 if released. To take one song - I'm not sure that the best No Quarter for that week wouldn't be the 22nd.

I dusted off the June 22 show a couple weeks back...hadn't heard it in a while. Hooollllyyyy shit, what an excellent performance. Bonham in particular is playing his ass off; I wouldn't want to go so far as to say he's overplaying in a Houston/Fort Worth sense where the little extras he throw in risk throwing off the rest of the band, but, man! JB was kicking ass on the drums on the 22nd. Take the frantic energy of his playing on "The Song Remains The Same" from the night before and put it into an entire show...I was shocked. And, yeah, I'd agree Mr K that that night's version of "No Quarter" is excellent; they knocked "In My Time Of Dying" outta the park as well, especially with that lemon squeezing bit thrown in at the end.

Then I got a little angry, confused. How could one man, impersonating a handicap, with no equipment other than what he hid under a wheelchair, do more for me, to present live Zeppelin at their collective best, with a great audience rapport, than Jimmy Page, with all his expertise as a studio musician, with all his professional equipment, with all his skilled collaborators - i.e. Kramer and Shirley?

We can always question Mike's "ethics", as it were, in so far as how he pretended to be disabled etc (mind ya, the seventies were considerably less politically correct than the age we live in now!) but you can't argue with the results. Millard's tapes are still the Gold Fucking Standard for audience recordings as far as I'm concerned. Hence why the goddamn bootleg is called "Listen To This Eddie"- no, it's not a dig at Eddie Van Halen as supposed, but rather Eddie Kramer, the king of recording engineers (well, one of them, anyway).

Is JP making a mistake by not releasing unknown shows in their primal form because they have the raw, unfinished form of a Mike Millard tape?

Should JP make a search for "lost" bootlegs, as he did for the official DVD, and release those with no touch ups?

I don't think it's sound quality issues Jimmy Page has when it comes to the Millard recordings, but the warts and all feel of the tapes. There is simply no way a 'perfectionist' like Page would release any of those shows officially without a shitload of editing and cutting and pasting. Which would completely defeat the purpose IMO. Take how Page's guitar cuts out at the beginning of "Sick Again" on June 21st...when the guitar kicks back in the overall effect sounds cool as fuck but Page wouldn't allow it on a live album. Or how they screw up "Kashmir" on the 23rd...sorry, those kinds of things happen during a live show. You want perfection, listen to the goddamn studio albums!

To answer yer question, K, of course Page should release these shows with no touch ups, he'd make a fuckin' fortune. An official version of Eddie or Badgeholders would be one of the greatest live albums of all time, up there with Live At Leeds and Get Yer Ya Ya's Out...and -again, IMO- miles ahead of either The Song Remains The Same soundtrack or How The West Was Won.

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After I heard the raw version of 1972/06/25 HTWWW just doesn't do anything for me anymore.

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After I heard the raw version of 1972/06/25 HTWWW just doesn't do anything for me anymore.

Don't feel bad, it never did anything for me; I think I listened to the whole thing exactly once (when it came out) and that was it...gave the damn thing to my sister in law's kid. I was always more partial to BBC Sessions or even TSRTS official-live album wise.

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Millar's tapes are excellent but they don't touch the audio quality on official releases. Royal Albert Hall in particular is insane, can't think of a live recording better than that. The way the drum smacks you...wow! TSRtS 6/21/1977 with that level of audio clarity would be something to hear.

What am I missing from the official releases, RAH, BBC sessions, HTWWW, TSRTS? Is JP making a mistake by not releasing unknown shows in their primal form because they have the raw, unfinished form of a Mike Millard tape?

Should JP make a search for "lost" bootlegs, as he did for the official DVD, and release those with no touch ups?

Maybe l should listen to the official live releases again, but when I do, I always go back to the "amateur" recordings, as I'm doing now with 1977 NYC.

If someone can point a preference to JP's production of live material, I might find something that I've missed.

Thanks.

In my opinion, yes, Jimmy is making a mistake by limiting live releases. His problem is thinking that he needs to get his hands dirty on every single thing Zeppelin does. With the sheer volume of bootleg recordings out there, diving into every single one would be a massive project. What Jimmy needs to do is oversee a group of people he trusts to assemble the best of the bootlegs, like Bob Dylan, but I don't know if he is capable "letting go" to that extent. Every Zeppelin release, he's in there, up to the elbows.

His biggest mistake in live releases so far has been cutting the chatter and space between songs. When you're entering hour two of a concert, a little quiet time just to breathe is necessary. The chatter really brings out the personality of the band, but also establishes the mood of that night's concert. It's important! My favorite show is Providence 1973 and a lot of the energy is brought on by the interaction of a rowdy crowd and a fearful, annoyed Plant.

The reason they went on to play such powerful versions of No Quarter and Stairway to Heaven that night was because of what happened between songs. Jimmy would leave these moments on the cutting room floor.

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The chatter really brings out the personality of the band, but also establishes the mood of that night's concert. It's important! My favorite show is Providence 1973 and a lot of the energy is brought on by the interaction of a rowdy crowd and a fearful, annoyed Plant.

Indeed, you cannot put the performance into its proper context without the way the band interacts with the audience. Take an iffy performance like Louisville '77: without knowing how Plant kept having to ask the crowd to move back, and hearing the bottle hit Page's guitar etc on a mere song by song basis we'd be asking "How come they sound so bad on this show?" Knowing that they were distracted by the rowdy audience explains all that, and puts it all into context.

Jimmy would leave these moments on the cutting room floor.

And therein lies the problem. When it comes to compiling live releases Page is not the best judge for his own work. He needs a pair of objective outside ears in order to do the job right. There's no need to rewrite history here, and that is how Jimmy approaches these kinds of projects.

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Nothing touches the "vibe" of a well recorded audience tape, warts and all! Led Zeppelin were so exciting in concert because they took risks.

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What I love about Millard's LTTE is that it almost sounds like a Soundboard recording. I have no idea how he managed to get the quality so great, when shows like Tempe have really terrible quality.

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What I love about Millard's LTTE is that it almost sounds like a Soundboard recording. I have no idea how he managed to get the quality so great, when shows like Tempe have really terrible quality.

Starting with a basic mono recorder in 1974, Millard upgraded to a Nakamichi stereo recorder with AKG Acoustics microphones for the 1975 Led Zeppelin shows in the area. He often used a wheelchair to conceal his equipment, pretending to be disabled.[2] Unlike most 1970s audience bootlegs, Millard's recordings are noted for their great sound quality, and are to this day considered some of the finest audio bootlegs available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Millard

Better than Soundboards imo, which can be a bit flat. The sound has room to "breathe", giving it a more natural sound.

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Nothing touches the "vibe" of a well recorded audience tape, warts and all! Led Zeppelin were so exciting in concert because they took risks.

Maybe that's why some of us find the best of the '75-'77 shows more exciting than the best of the early days--when they take those risks you have this subconscious awareness that they might mess it up, which makes it all the more thrilling when they don't. In the early days on the other hand you almost expect near-perfect performances.

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Maybe that's why some of us find the best of the '75-'77 shows more exciting than the best of the early days--when they take those risks you have this subconscious awareness that they might mess it up, which makes it all the more thrilling when they don't. In the early days on the other hand you almost expect near-perfect performances.

:rolleyes:

Oh brother, another one of those "The early days were too good" comments...

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:rolleyes:

Oh brother, another one of those "The early days were too good" comments...

No no, I love the early days!

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No no, I love the early days!

I know man, just joshing. ;) I have heard similar comments on this forum before though...

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What I love about Millard's LTTE is that it almost sounds like a Soundboard recording. I have no idea how he managed to get the quality so great, when shows like Tempe have really terrible quality.

I have no idea what kind of gear was used to tape Tempe, but at least part of the reason the Landover '77 audience recordings -the first three nights in particular- sound so crappy is because they were recorded on a handheld Panasonic dictaphone. If memory serves the Chicago '77 shows were recorded on something similar, but the reason those recordings sound so rough (overloaded) is because the taper(s) had good seats right up front -12th row, I think- and the sheer volume of the gig was too much for the recording gear to handle...

It goes without saying, the better the gear, the better the recording...although having good seats in the venue definitely is a factor as well.

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Because they took risks very rarely was there an absolutely perfect track. The No Quarter solo from New York on the 28th is incredible but there are mistakes earlier on. Hence the hybrid version that is on TSRTS.

Jimmy appears to want as close to perfection as possible. Whilst this is great as an ideal in practice very difficult to achieve. As fans I suspect that we would want warts and all gigs in the best quality sound available.

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I have no idea what kind of gear was used to tape Tempe, but at least part of the reason the Landover '77 audience recordings -the first three nights in particular- sound so crappy is because they were recorded on a handheld Panasonic dictaphone. If memory serves the Chicago '77 shows were recorded on something similar, but the reason those recordings sound so rough (overloaded) is because the taper(s) had good seats right up front -12th row, I think- and the sheer volume of the gig was too much for the recording gear to handle...

It goes without saying, the better the gear, the better the recording...although having good seats in the venue definitely is a factor as well.

I have no idea what kind of gear was used to tape Tempe, but at least part of the reason the Landover '77 audience recordings -the first three nights in particular- sound so crappy is because they were recorded on a handheld Panasonic dictaphone. If memory serves the Chicago '77 shows were recorded on something similar, but the reason those recordings sound so rough (overloaded) is because the taper(s) had good seats right up front -12th row, I think- and the sheer volume of the gig was too much for the recording gear to handle...

It goes without saying, the better the gear, the better the recording...although having good seats in the venue definitely is a factor as well.

I have no idea what kind of gear was used to tape Tempe, but at least part of the reason the Landover '77 audience recordings -the first three nights in particular- sound so crappy is because they were recorded on a handheld Panasonic dictaphone. If memory serves the Chicago '77 shows were recorded on something similar, but the reason those recordings sound so rough (overloaded) is because the taper(s) had good seats right up front -12th row, I think- and the sheer volume of the gig was too much for the recording gear to handle...

It goes without saying, the better the gear, the better the recording...although having good seats in the venue definitely is a factor as well.

I have no idea what kind of gear was used to tape Tempe, but at least part of the reason the Landover '77 audience recordings -the first three nights in particular- sound so crappy is because they were recorded on a handheld Panasonic dictaphone. If memory serves the Chicago '77 shows were recorded on something similar, but the reason those recordings sound so rough (overloaded) is because the taper(s) had good seats right up front -12th row, I think- and the sheer volume of the gig was too much for the recording gear to handle...

It goes without saying, the better the gear, the better the recording...although having good seats in the venue definitely is a factor as well.

I agree as usual with everything Nutrocker says, I would just like to add that not only does the quality of the recording depend on the quality of the recording equipment used as well as good seats to record from, but also the natural accoustics of the venue the concert takes place in. A lot of the venues were really buildings designed for sporting events, etc and not for musical accoustics. When Zep's live audience got to the size that venues like sports arenas had to used to hold all the fans I would wager that if these buildings had been designed with acoustics in mind we would have many more nice sounding boots to listen to. I have heard people say I saw these guys or those guys live back in the day and the concert sounded terrible, they sucked. I always have wondered did the band really suck or were they really putting on a good show and it was just bad accoustics giving the illusion that they sucked.

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Dont know what happened to my above post, only wanted Nutrockers quote once. Could a Mod please fix this. Thank you.

Edited by Northstar

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I agree as usual with everything Nutrocker says, I would just like to add that not only does the quality of the recording depend on the quality of the recording equipment used as well as good seats to record from, but also the natural accoustics of the venue the concert takes place in. A lot of the venues were really buildings designed for sporting events, etc and not for musical accoustics. When Zep's live audience got to the size that venues like sports arenas had to used to hold all the fans I would wager that if these buildings had been designed with acoustics in mind we would have many more nice sounding boots to listen to. I have heard people say I saw these guys or those guys live back in the day and the concert sounded terrible, they sucked. I always have wondered did the band really suck or were they really putting on a good show and it was just bad accoustics giving the illusion that they sucked.

So true! No matter how good the recording equipment is, if the venue has poor acoustics or a second rate sound system, the resulting tapes can't sound better than the show. Most shows I saw in the early '70's sounded pretty rough, usually low vocals and lots of reverbatrory echos. It was not until the 1977 Yes "In the Round" tour that I finally thought "This sounds better than ANY stereo I've ever heard!"

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Millard, great person.... one of the best recorded concerts of LZ San Diego 75 and LA 77...

that reminds me of Artie (RIP) Aka Freezer, i have some time ago and argument with him.

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I always thought that a great story/movie should be made about this one week in LA. Obviously, the shows would be a highlight, but a good deal of attention should be given to Millard and the legacy that he created for all of us. There is also a lot of groupie stuff going on as well. The groupie scene was captured really well in Almost Famous. But one part Millard, one part concerts and one part groupie would make for a really interesting book or movie.

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Millard. I can't understand why the official releases are butchered by edits.

Hardly any talk between numbers and removing sections of songs. Reading the garden tapes opened my eyes to a lot and explained what I was listening to.

Listened to the Paris Olympia official release once. The removal of most of the solo from heartbreaker summed it up and it was clear that how many more times had been chopped up as well.

What is the point in doing it - what is the point in listening to it? Looked forward to the release and was ultimately disappointed.

P

Based on that approach i doubt that we will see warts and all releases. Risks were taken, some vocals and guitar parts weren't perfect and won't/can't be overdubbed.

If we did have some releases I assume the butchers knife would come out leaving many preferring a lower quality but uncut version.

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