After 3/3/75. . What's next?

[Guest WD52]

Now you've got me digging through my cds... Live In Adelaide Feb 19th on Equinox-can't make out if it a very good audience or taken from stage mikes or soundboard (you can hear brief comments near the source-which probably excludes soundboard) but the instruments are all really clear. Is a better source than 'Shiver 'n' Shakes disc one from the same show. Rumble in Sydney 27th Feb FAP label really good audience tape better sound than Equinox (shorter release anyway-4 songs I think and 2 interviews). So if you want a complete Sidney show Rumble in Sydney is the one. Assuming it is the Sydney show of course!

[Guest WD52]

From Led Zeppelin Live website

Rumble In Sydney - 2cd by Futher Along (#FAP-010/011)

February 27th, 1972 Showground, Sydney, Australia

Disc 1 (65:30): Out On The Tiles / Black Dog (6:15) Stairway To Heaven (9:23) Going To California (5:28) That's The Way (7:36) Tangerine (3:49) Bron-Y-Aur Stomp (4:43) Dazed And Confused (23:34) What Is And What Should Never Be (4:37)

Disc 2 (65:35): Moby Dick (18:18) Rock And Roll (3:39) Whole Lotta Love (27:37) Communication Breakdown (3:10) Organ Solo / Thank You (12:49)

Sources: stereo audience+mono audience

Sound quality: ***
Performance: ****

[JohnOsbourne]

@Pluribus

So, I take it you're unwilling to make a prediction about the next release?  E.g. that it could just as easily be New Orleans 71 or St Louis 73 as another Mar75 release, so there's no point in making a prediction (predictions requiring patterns, after all)?  I'm personally skeptical that you would believe that, although it's the only logical conclusion from the preferences-explain-the-observed-releases position.  I'll repeat my own predictions here:  the next releases will be Mar75 or May77, and the next '75 release will be San Diego, followed by Houston and Long Beach. 

[Guest WD52]

Are people confusing predictions with guesses? 

[Nutrocker]

Are people confusing predictions with guesses? 

Aren't they one and the same?

 

[Guest WD52]

Well the result is often the same if you back horses prediction based on form of horse and prior knowledge, guess =sticking a pin in a list. Result=loss of money

[JohnOsbourne]

A prediction is an informed guess. 

[Guest WD52]

Not really-a prediction is based on looking for patterns in past activity/data to try to project forward what is probable/possible. A guess has no real level of previous information to inform it, and is usually put down to 'gut instinct.' It is why more predictions are more accurate than guesses. But why a wild guess that comes in is greeted with greater acclaim is more down to human nature. As for the Zep bootleg origins debate the guesses are fuelled by wishful thinking.

btw my guess  is I think something more prosaic is fuelling the releases-the gigs were a long time ago and maybe the source holder(s) have simply died with the tapes then ending up as a job lot with a savvy music dealer who then passes them on to the cd makers.

[Crimson Avenger]

Now you've got me digging through my cds... Live In Adelaide Feb 19th on Equinox-can't make out if it a very good audience or taken from stage mikes or soundboard (you can hear brief comments near the source-which probably excludes soundboard) but the instruments are all really clear. Is a better source than 'Shiver 'n' Shakes disc one from the same show. Rumble in Sydney 27th Feb FAP label really good audience tape better sound than Equinox (shorter release anyway-4 songs I think and 2 interviews). So if you want a complete Sidney show Rumble in Sydney is the one. Assuming it is the Sydney show of course!

Sadly no SBDs circulate from Australia 72. There's a small USA 72 SBD snippet isn't there, which is tantalising.

I dimly recall rumours of one of the Oz shows being broadcast on radio, which would imply a decent source for it somewhere, but nothing ever turned up. Can't remember any details offhand.

[Crimson Avenger]

I predict Stephen Davis will release his tape of Austin 75, and it will be every bit as good as he says it was in his book!

[Walter]

 

I dimly recall rumours of one of the Oz shows being broadcast on radio, which would imply a decent source for it somewhere, but nothing ever turned up. Can't remember any details offhand.

Yes, that was discussed here years ago - but nobody can confirm, other than from memory.  Didn't the Paris radio broadcast just surface a handful of years ago?

[TheGreatOne]

As funny and pathetic as it seems, it's really strange not even a recording from the parking lot at Silverdome has not surfaced.   I'm certain there are multiple audio and video contained well.

It's always the northern states that have F-ed up sources in circulation.  Detroit, Chicago, Seattle and parts of Canada

[JohnOsbourne]

@WD52

A bit of hair-splitting, I'd say.  All judgments about the future are some mix of objectivity and subjectivity.  The issue concerns which thesis about the source of these soundboards is more plausible in light of the observed facts:  it's coming from someone with a truncated source (mid-Feb thru mid-Mar), or from someone (presumably in the Zep camp like Page) who has the complete collection but for reasons of preference is releasing the ones we've seen.  Statistically, the former position is far, far more defensible.  And the latter position is basically non-falsifiable, and hence non-empirical.  If the next show is Houston '75, then they could say, that's what Page wanted.  But they could say the same thing if Detroit '75 showed up.  If a show from Jan appears, then I'll be forced to reconsider my position.  Hence there is a way of evaluating that position, that the Page-as-source thesis lacks.  (I focus on 75 but you could say the same thing about the range of 77 shows that have come out.)

[pluribus]

@Pluribus

So, I take it you're unwilling to make a prediction about the next release?  E.g. that it could just as easily be New Orleans 71 or St Louis 73 as another Mar75 release, so there's no point in making a prediction (predictions requiring patterns, after all)?  I'm personally skeptical that you would believe that, although it's the only logical conclusion from the preferences-explain-the-observed-releases position.  I'll repeat my own predictions here:  the next releases will be Mar75 or May77, and the next '75 release will be San Diego, followed by Houston and Long Beach. 

Given the track record of releases over the past 13 years, I'd guess that we're going to get more shows from 1975.

As for what show will be next, what range of dates are really available, and where they come from...my guesses are just like anyone else's

[Nutrocker]

As funny and pathetic as it seems, it's really strange not even a recording from the parking lot at Silverdome has not surfaced.   I'm certain there are multiple audio and video contained well.

It's always the northern states that have F-ed up sources in circulation.  Detroit, Chicago, Seattle and parts of Canada

Yes, it is surprising that only the one mediocre audience source circulates for the Pontiac show. Don't get me wrong, it's better than nothing, but it's hard to believe that out of 76000 people only one guy thought to bring a goddamn tape recorder  Compare with the Seattle Kingdome show- three or four audience sources exist for that one. 

As for the Northern states having fucked up sources, well, that's not necessarily the case- many fine Zeppelin era recordings of other bands circulate from Seattle and Toronto. Chicago is a little iffy, yeah, but the 1975 Zeppelin Chi shows aren't that bad. IMO the problem with the 1977 Chicago recordings aren't necessarily the recordings but the shape the tapes themselves were in when they finally circulated.

[Crimson Avenger]

Yes, it is surprising that only the one mediocre audience source circulates for the Pontiac show. Don't get me wrong, it's better than nothing, but it's hard to believe that out of 76000 people only one guy thought to bring a goddamn tape recorder  Compare with the Seattle Kingdome show- three or four audience sources exist for that one. 

The blind spots are a puzzle, aren't they? Especially later on in the band's career, when a show was a big event. Minneapolis and Houston 75 being two others with no recordings at all.

On the subject of tapers, there was an interesting bit in the bootleg courtcase transcript that Pluribus sent round earlier here. It was put to Jimmy that the band had sold 'taper tickets' which allowed people to tape a show from the audience, for an extra charge on the ticket. I'd never heard that before, and I'd be surprised if it was true, but it's intriguing that Jimmy didn't quite deny it. He just said he was only the guitar player and didn't know about ticketing arrangements. I wonder if there's any truth whatsoever in that.

[Nutrocker]

The blind spots are a puzzle, aren't they? Especially later on in the band's career, when a show was a big event. Minneapolis and Houston 75 being two others with no recordings at all.

On the subject of tapers, there was an interesting bit in the bootleg courtcase transcript that Pluribus sent round earlier here. It was put to Jimmy that the band had sold 'taper tickets' which allowed people to tape a show from the audience, for an extra charge on the ticket. I'd never heard that before, and I'd be surprised if it was true, but it's intriguing that Jimmy didn't quite deny it. He just said he was only the guitar player and didn't know about ticketing arrangements. I wonder if there's any truth whatsoever in that.

i think those 'taper tickets' were in relation to one of the Page/Plant tours in the 90's where there were indeed Grateful Dead-style taper sections...not back in Zeppelin's heyday. Page has gone on record as saying that once the punter buys their concert ticket, they're "fair game"- basically intimating that he (Jimmy) doesn't really give a shit if the ticketholder tapes or films the show. Ultimately it was really Peter Grant who had the hardcore anti taping/anti filming/anti bootlegging stance- not the actual bandmembers themselves.

[JohnOsbourne]

Yes, it is surprising that only the one mediocre audience source circulates for the Pontiac show. Don't get me wrong, it's better than nothing, but it's hard to believe that out of 76000 people only one guy thought to bring a goddamn tape recorder  Compare with the Seattle Kingdome show- three or four audience sources exist for that one. 

As for the Northern states having fucked up sources, well, that's not necessarily the case- many fine Zeppelin era recordings of other bands circulate from Seattle and Toronto. Chicago is a little iffy, yeah, but the 1975 Zeppelin Chi shows aren't that bad. IMO the problem with the 1977 Chicago recordings aren't necessarily the recordings but the shape the tapes themselves were in when they finally circulated.

From '73 the second night in Chicago and Milwaukee are good audience recordings, and the first night in Detroit is an excellent audience recording.  And how about Providence?  All outstanding shows BTW.

[SolitudeIsBliss]

Jimmy wasn't going to release a major live album at the same time as the remastered Physical Graffiti  album, it would have confused the general punters and detracted from both releases, so no opportunity was missed there.  An Earl's Court live album in the future... who knows?

Did Jimmy really say that to Dave Lewis, have you got a link?  I always heard the reason for Japan '71 not being released, either back in the day or more recently, was because Jimmy and/or the collective band weren't happy with the actual recording itself, and that's why, if Jimmy said what you said he said to Lewis, it probably means it's too much work to 'clean up' the original multi-track tape, and the guy has just spent three years listening to just about every tape Zeppelin recorded, listening to yet more and even more time in the studio is the last thing on his mind at present... his solo stuff is next.

I was always under the impression that the Japan 1971 tapes had been wiped.  If we would ever see an official Japan 1971 release then I'd probably piss my pants out of excitement. 

[Sathington Willoughby]

Jimmy wasn't going to release a major live album at the same time as the remastered Physical Graffiti  album, it would have confused the general punters and detracted from both releases, so no opportunity was missed there.  An Earl's Court live album in the future... who knows?

Did Jimmy really say that to Dave Lewis, have you got a link?  I always heard the reason for Japan '71 not being released, either back in the day or more recently, was because Jimmy and/or the collective band weren't happy with the actual recording itself, and that's why, if Jimmy said what you said he said to Lewis, it probably means it's too much work to 'clean up' the original multi-track tape, and the guy has just spent three years listening to just about every tape Zeppelin recorded, listening to yet more and even more time in the studio is the last thing on his mind at present... his solo stuff is next.

From Tight But Loose, Issue 38: (Interview from October 2, 2014)

Dave Lewis: "So you could put out something like Japan 1971?"

Jimmy Page: "I could, but I've been doing so much Led Zeppelin work... and it's not just compiling it, but it's promoting it. That all takes time. I mean, I'm not 40 years old or even 50 years old-where I can say 'I've got at least another 25 years'. I maybe don't have another 25 years and it comes to the point where you look at everything you've got and for me the website was the first thing I needed to do. The website was going to loop and deal with the history. That was important, because again, it was like nobody had done anything like that. Nobody had done a website that caught up and came round upon itself and looped." 

 

Classic Jimmy answer, lol.

[Sathington Willoughby]

Jimmy wasn't going to release a major live album at the same time as the remastered Physical Graffiti  album, it would have confused the general punters and detracted from both releases, so no opportunity was missed there.  An Earl's Court live album in the future... who knows?

Did Jimmy really say that to Dave Lewis, have you got a link?  I always heard the reason for Japan '71 not being released, either back in the day or more recently, was because Jimmy and/or the collective band weren't happy with the actual recording itself, and that's why, if Jimmy said what you said he said to Lewis, it probably means it's too much work to 'clean up' the original multi-track tape, and the guy has just spent three years listening to just about every tape Zeppelin recorded, listening to yet more and even more time in the studio is the last thing on his mind at present... his solo stuff is next.

Damn, I see Crimson Avenger answered you. Oh well, you can see how he changed the subject in classic Jimmy fashion. 

[SolitudeIsBliss]

So it is confirmed that the tapes for the 1971 Japan shows exist ? 

[Crimson Avenger]

So it is confirmed that the tapes for the 1971 Japan shows exist ? 

Who knows?! I think we can be pretty sure that at least part of those shows was taped properly, but whether they still exist, and in what shape, we don't know. Taking Jimmy's reply to Dave Lewis at face value, I'd say yes they do, but only Jimmy knows for sure. What does seem certain is he won't be doing anything with them, sadly.