Gene Simmons vs NWA

[Badgeholder Still]

On 4/16/2016 at 10:01 PM, Disco Duck said:

So why did they induct Nat King Cole and Johnny Cash?  Both men were major figures in American music but neither was a rock artist; nor do they appeal to a younger demographic.  As much as I dislike hiphop, I think the HOF has made the correct decision to consider the major artists in this genre for induction.   Like it or not, (and I don't) it has replaced soul and funk as the most popular "black" music genre.  Hiphop has another thing going for it: African-Americans exercise far more financial control in hiphop than they ever did in rock-and-roll, jazz or blues.  

Johnny Cash was a rockabilly artist during the early part of his career. He toured with Carl Perkins and Elvis while signed to Sun. Nat King Cole is considered an influence for doo wop (the ballads), Sam Cooke, Smokey Robinson...

Now, if someone can make the connection between Cole and Eazy-E, please do.

[Disco Duck]

Just now, ScarletMacaw said:

So were the great soul and funk bands inducted? They were more "rock" than rap is. Is Donna Summer in the RnRHOF? (I don't know; I'm asking). How about Sly and the Family Stone? Earth Wind and Fire? The Supremes?

Sly & the Family Stone were inducted in 1993, the first year they were eligible.  P-Funk were inducted in 1997, Earth, Wind & Fire in 2000 and The Jackson 5 in 1997.  Michael Jackson was inducted as a solo artist in 2001.  James Brown was inducted in 1986, Marvin Gaye in 1987, The Temptations in 1989 and The Dells in 2004.   Holland-Dozier-Holland, Motown's great songwriting and production team, got the nod in 1990.  Donna Summer was nominated several times before getting the nod in 2013.  Sadly, this was a year after she died of cancer.  

[Strider]

Almost a 100% NWA reunion at Coachella during Ice Cube's set this past weekend. Only Dr. Dre abstained.

For the record, some of you need to realize that the audience for hip-hop and rap is made up of a large segment of white, suburban youth. It is not just black gangsta-wannabes buying rap records and going to shows. Hip-hop has infiltrated white youth culture and dominates it to a fair degree.

[Walter]

That's what I was getting at.  Including NWA, et all who aren't "RnR" groups/solo artist, is a money grab to sell admission up in Cleveland.  Expanding the base is where it's at, whether you're the NFL, NASCAR or the RnR HoF.  

[TypeO]

On 4/18/2016 at 6:24 PM, Strider said:

For the record, some of you need to realize that the audience for hip-hop and rap is made up of a large segment of white, suburban youth. It is not just black gangsta-wannabes buying rap records and going to shows. Hip-hop has infiltrated white youth culture and dominates it to a fair degree.

Nail on the head.

[JohnOsbourne]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 5:24 PM, Strider said:

Almost a 100% NWA reunion at Coachella during Ice Cube's set this past weekend. Only Dr. Dre abstained.

For the record, some of you need to realize that the audience for hip-hop and rap is made up of a large segment of white, suburban youth. It is not just black gangsta-wannabes buying rap records and going to shows. Hip-hop has infiltrated white youth culture and dominates it to a fair degree.

This is probably true but irrelevant to the question of whether rap and hip-hop are rock and roll.

[Marmalade_Skies]

Okay, we can take NWA out of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame...

But, you'd have to rescind these acts first:

• James Brown (Funk)
• Ray Charles (R&B)
• Sam Cooke (R&B)
• Aretha Franklin (R&B)
• Marvin Gaye (R&B)
• Smokey Robinson (R&B)
• Bob Dylan (Social poet, the roots of rap can be found in his music.  let's be honest.  he wasn't inducted because of his singing or guitar skills.  he was inducted for his conscious lyrics)
• Lavern Baker (R&B)
• The Isley Brothers (R&B)
• Al Green (R&B)
• Michael Jackson (Pop)
• Madonna (Pop)
• Abba (Disco Pop)

Until then, Gene Simmons should really butt out.  It's a clear case of him being old fashioned and being discriminatory toward rap because it's a new genre that was never marketed to white baby boomers.

(Apologies for the large window size.  I originally had a table in here but it wont let me delete it)

[Marmalade_Skies]

On 4/19/2016 at 8:32 PM, Walter said:

That's what I was getting at.  Including NWA, et all who aren't "RnR" groups/solo artist, is a money grab to sell admission up in Cleveland.

You're stating that NWA wasn't included because of their merit.  That's a big statement.

On 4/12/2016 at 1:28 PM, in_the_evening said:

Not a huge Simmons fan, but he HAS a point.  It's interesting, my 15 year old son and his friends love the 80s music stations.  When I ask "what about rap", my son will reply "Rap is just one letter short of Crap".  Most of the kids his age don't like it.  I agree with Simmons, I don't get rap, I don't get how someone talking over a bass beat is rock, or talented for that matter.

I'm a fan of all types of music.  It's important to respect different genres for what they have to offer.  I mean, it's fine to not personally like something but to invalidate it because you don't like it is just the standard suburban reactionary thing to do.

I can totally picture my great grandparents generation listening to the Zeppelin and saying "This is just a bunch of noise.  Why is this so loud.  Why did they put an electric box and distort the guitar like that?  Why are they talking about sex and drugs?  This is messed up.  It's completely against the moral fabric of our society.   And why are they shouting?  Haven't they ever heard of singing?  This generation has lost its way."

On 4/13/2016 at 11:03 AM, the chase said:

So what's the solution? Call it the Music Hall Of Fame.. ?

Rock is fine.  Rock is so widespread.  It's not just a specific genre.  It's an attitude.

On 4/13/2016 at 6:08 PM, Walter said:

But everyone here, including Simmons, is correct - rap is NOT rock.

Neither is R&B, but that didn't stop them from inducting 10-20 soul singers?

On 4/14/2016 at 9:28 AM, TypeO said:

I think the rage and intensity NWA brought to their music is what made it Rock-and-Roll.
I think Rock-and-Roll is and always has been a state of mind more than a particular template.

Exactly.  Rock n roll is not just about guitar and drums.  It's much bigger than that.  It's an attitude.  Rock n roll was always about innovation and subversion.  I've heard so many rock bands in the past 30 years who have basically adhered to a formula.  And yeah, they have the instruments of a true rock sound, but not the vision.  NWA was every bit as progressive and inventive as any of the other acts on the list.

[Sathington Willoughby]

^All great points, Marmalade. 

[JohnOsbourne]

19 hours ago, Marmalade_Skies said:

You're stating that NWA wasn't included because of their merit.  That's a big statement.

I'm a fan of all types of music.  It's important to respect different genres for what they have to offer.  I mean, it's fine to not personally like something but to invalidate it because you don't like it is just the standard suburban reactionary thing to do.

I can totally picture my great grandparents generation listening to the Zeppelin and saying "This is just a bunch of noise.  Why is this so loud.  Why did they put an electric box and distort the guitar like that?  Why are they talking about sex and drugs?  This is messed up.  It's completely against the moral fabric of our society.   And why are they shouting?  Haven't they ever heard of singing?  This generation has lost its way."

Rock is fine.  Rock is so widespread.  It's not just a specific genre.  It's an attitude.

Neither is R&B, but that didn't stop them from inducting 10-20 soul singers?

Exactly.  Rock n roll is not just about guitar and drums.  It's much bigger than that.  It's an attitude.  Rock n roll was always about innovation and subversion.  I've heard so many rock bands in the past 30 years who have basically adhered to a formula.  And yeah, they have the instruments of a true rock sound, but not the vision.  NWA was every bit as progressive and inventive as any of the other acts on the list.

"Standard suburban reactionary"?  Yawn,

[Marmalade_Skies]

But it's definitely a conflict of suburban vs urban values.

White guys pioneer a new genre of loud distorted music - it's hailed as art.

Black guys pioneer a new genre loud distorted music - it's "not real music".

[JohnOsbourne]

1 hour ago, Marmalade_Skies said:

But it's definitely a conflict of suburban vs urban values.

White guys pioneer a new genre of loud distorted music - it's hailed as art.

Black guys pioneer a new genre loud distorted music - it's "not real music".

Gene Simmons is a Jewish New Yorker who spent time in Israel, he's hardly a white suburbanite.

[IpMan]

3 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Gene Simmons is a Jewish New Yorker who spent time in Israel, he's hardly a white suburbanite.

But he is a white guy, no confusing him for James Brown or George Clinton. When KISS was envisioned by Gene it was done with a singular goal...to make lots of money. Simmons is no musician, he did not even play bass on his own solo album, he is a marketing genius, that is his singular gift. If it were not for the avenue of rock and roll, which also provided the bonus feature of women and drugs, Simmons would have become a Madison Ave ad man.

[Walter]

On May 5, 2016 at 3:25 AM, Marmalade_Skies said:

You're stating that NWA wasn't included because of their merit.  That's a big statement.

I'm a fan of all types of music.  It's important to respect different genres for what they have to offer.  I mean, it's fine to not personally like something but to invalidate it because you don't like it is just the standard suburban reactionary thing to do.

I can totally picture my great grandparents generation listening to the Zeppelin and saying "This is just a bunch of noise.  Why is this so loud.  Why did they put an electric box and distort the guitar like that?  Why are they talking about sex and drugs?  This is messed up.  It's completely against the moral fabric of our society.   And why are they shouting?  Haven't they ever heard of singing?  This generation has lost its way."

Rock is fine.  Rock is so widespread.  It's not just a specific genre.  It's an attitude.

Neither is R&B, but that didn't stop them from inducting 10-20 soul singers?

Exactly.  Rock n roll is not just about guitar and drums.  It's much bigger than that.  It's an attitude.  Rock n roll was always about innovation and subversion.  I've heard so many rock bands in the past 30 years who have basically adhered to a formula.  And yeah, they have the instruments of a true rock sound, but not the vision.  NWA was every bit as progressive and inventive as any of the other acts on the list.

Well thank you for quoting me twice.  Once again my point is clear - they have inducted NWA at this time for one reason, money grab.  Expanding the base for potential visitors to their exposition in Cleveland.  Rock n roll is an anti-establishment attitude, that's never been an issue.  Why 2016 when they could've been inducted 3-4 years ago?  I don't know - but the fact there was a movie released that sat on top of the charts for weeks this past summer didn't hurt.  

Interesting to note that NWA didn't make your top 10 in the 80's or the 90's, when you had so many other amazing bands on your list.   Looks to me like your rant is more of a personal thing than anything.  Late.

[Marmalade_Skies]

I didn't include NWA in my list because it wasn't a rock band in the strict sense.  A-Ha wasn't either (that was an error) of my part.

Before you call me a hypocrite, keep in mind I didn't put Aretha Franklin, et all in my list either.

My issue was that Gene Simmons didn't complain about the inclusion of other genres into the R&R Hall of Fame until rap came up.  He's effectively saying that Rap is categorically inferior to R&B, which is total nonsense.