sk8rat Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 keith relf died well into led zeppelins success and was still interested in music when he died but I haven't ever heard anything about him and either his opinion on zep or much if any interaction with jimmy page after the yardbirds split. I know jimmy has talked about his time with keith and the yardbirds and his death but I haven't heard much else. are there any interviews or anything with keith where he acknowledges or talks about zep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTM Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, sk8rat said: keith relf died well into led zeppelins success and was still interested in music when he died but I haven't ever heard anything about him and either his opinion on zep or much if any interaction with jimmy page after the yardbirds split. I know jimmy has talked about his time with keith and the yardbirds and his death but I haven't heard much else. are there any interviews or anything with keith where he acknowledges or talks about zep? You're on the World Wide Web man, google it, wiki it, use your noggin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk8rat Posted September 21, 2016 Author Share Posted September 21, 2016 1 hour ago, JTM said: You're on the World Wide Web man, google it, wiki it, use your noggin... I googled it. not much come up other than stuff about his death. nothing came up about him talking about led zeppelin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apantherfrommd Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 That's a good question, sk8rat. I'm curious myself. I hope someone can find something to answer that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril46 Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Well, if nothing else he did form/lead a band called Armaggedon in 73' or 74'. I have the vinyl, it's actually pretty good some heavy stuff, some ballads. Worth checking out, I acually think it's better than most of the Yardbirds stuff. As most know, Page wanted to continue with the Yardbirds, but the others had either had it or were drunk or drugged out. Rather interesting, I've got like ?? 40 Zep books, not a peep from Relf anywhere. Maybe he felt left behind, or jealous of Zep's success. Who knows, maybe Steve A. Would know more about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzoso Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 12 hours ago, JTM said: You're on the World Wide Web man, google it, wiki it, use your noggin... Considering you have over 2,600 posts on this forum, I would expect you to have more grace or consideration of someone else's inquiry of a question/topic. At least answer the man in a respectful manner and not denigrate or insult him as easily as you did. I guess you know nothing of maintaining a common sense of decency or respect to fellow Forum and Led Zeppelin fans. I will say that you should "use your noggin" before being so contemptuous and down right ignorant before you make another post that criticizes someone who asks a rather good question. You may seem that you are above all of us, but you are not, and stop posting like you are. You are only making yourself look and read like the person that you truly are, and that is a person that thinks they know everything but really have not clue how to have a decent and normal conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTM Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I guess y'all think different in Texus, because where I come from I gave a perfectly reasonable and humorous response to the question sk8rat asked, have you never heard of banter.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTM Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 13 hours ago, sk8rat said: I googled it. not much come up other than stuff about his death. nothing came up about him talking about led zeppelin. I had a look around too, I could not find anything either, maybe StevenAJones can help you. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 11 hours ago, Mithril46 said: Who knows, maybe Steve A. Would know more about this. Well, though Keith Relf remained active he wasn't in the limelight so there are very few post-Yardbirds era interviews of him. He does discuss Jimmy's first solo single, among other things, here: http://keithrelf.com/relf.html There's also this: Led Zeppelin III found Page still rummaging through his suitcase of Yardbirds castoffs. An album track, "Tangerine," was one Page had worked on with the Yardbirds in the spring of 1968. At that time, it was called "Knowing That I'm Losing You." The two arrangemens are identical. The Yardbirds had never copyrighted the piece, which made it easy for Page to usurp it in its entirety. The song was attributed solely to Jimmy Page with no mention being made of Keith Relf, who had written a significant chunk of the lyrics that appeared in Led Zeppelin's version. "He [Keith Relf] should really be given a credit for that one," Jim McCarty said, referring specifically to the second verse's lyrics in "Knowing That I'm Losing You," which appear intact as the first verse in "Tangerine." This author conducted interviews with McCarty, Dreja and Keith Relf's sister, Jane, in the autumn of 2001 for a story on the Page era Yardbirds, which appeared in the 2002 edition of Ugly Things magazine. Lest readers think plagiarism is a victimless crime, Jane Relf's reaction to information on the "Knowing That I'm Losing You" and "Tangerine" situation should give cause for pause. "My brother plucked that session man out of obscurity and gave him a job and that's how he repaid him?" Jane Relf mused. "My brother was not well-off at the end of his life and the royalties for that song could have helped out considerably." She was refering to Keith Relf's financial straits at the time of his death in 1976. As for "Knowing That I'm Losing You" and "Tangerine." both feature a steel guitar courtesy of Page. Once again, the Yardbirds' unreleased version is superior. Relf's vocals are heartbreaking and McCarty's drums much lighter and better suited to the song's fragility. Their take has a prominent Morricone touch and the massed vocals at the end take it to new heights. Led Zeppelin's version simply pales in comparison. Page, though, had the good sense to realize the song's appeal and it has since gone onto be one of Zeppelin's most beloved songs, free as it is of Plant's insipid cliches that pass themselves off as lyrics. Page claimed authorship of the entire song, including the lyrics. The Yardbirds had never copyrighted the piece, which made it easy for Page to usurp it in its entirety. The flower-child verses smack of Keith Relf, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthazor Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Sounds like some sour grapes there. While "Knowing That I'm Losing You" is a nice song, one would have to be on crack to think it superior to "Tangerine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 57 minutes ago, Balthazor said: Sounds like some sour grapes there. While "Knowing That I'm Losing You" is a nice song, one would have to be on crack to think it superior to "Tangerine." Thats what it sounds like to me as well. The lyrics not used were stupid and almost nonsensical (falling from a tree???) and the chorus not only unintelligible but weak. The structure of the song is good but the overall tune kinda is a turd. This is likely the reason Relf had no interest in copywriting it. After all, shortly after the Yardbirds split Relf formed a folk group with his sister Jane...Knowing That I Am Losing You would have fit nicely on the first Renaissance album released in 69' yet it was not on there. Obviously Relf felt the song was inferior which explains why he never copyrighted it. I have never heard a bad word about Page or Zeppelin from Relf in print, however his sister Jane is a real piece of work with quite the negative commentary. When you see all the vitriol in print about Zeppelin from other musicians it appears, IMO, most are upset because of the almost instant success they achieved together. After all, both the Beatles & Stones struggled for years in the clubs before making it big, as most bands do, so the jealousy against Zeppelin likely stems from a perception that they never had to pay their dues so to speak. Of course this is not taking into account the almost decade long slog both JPJ & JP had to go through before Zeppelins success and, the four years of even shittier gigs and busting balls Plant & Bonham had to endure. Relf was a very talented musician and his work in both Renaissance & Armageddon should be sought out. Though of the two bands, Armageddon was much better. Renaissance sounds like early Yes meets Pentangle, ambitious but disjointed and meandering. Very piano and harpsichord orientated but lacking cohesion. Armageddon on the other hand sounds like a group which really could have gone places and smacks of Sad Wings of Destiny Judas Priest in places. Great record, must have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecongo Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 A shit ton of professional jealousy is hurled Zeps way. Jimmy was smarter and more creative than the rest of them, financially and musically, and they can't deal with it. somehow I think Jimmy just doesn't give a fuck. He beat the bastards and thieves in the industry and did it HIS way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the chase Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 It sounds to me like Relf deserved a writing credit.. Bitchy sister or not.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathington Willoughby Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 10 hours ago, JTM said: I guess y'all think different in Texus, because were I come from I gave a perfectly reasonable and humorous response to the question sk8rat asked, have you never heard of banter.. Another day, another bizarre, over-reactive post from kingbozo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril46 Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Am I missing something, or is there actually a recorded version of Relf's "Tangerine", or is it just lyric stealing ?? And seek out Armageddon, Relf and the guitarist really conjure up some sinister stuff. You won't be disappointed, this album stands on it's own, it isn't a record for Yardbirds completists only. And the jealousy angle, very likely. Renaissance IMO as mentioned earlier by Ipman, seemed a rather unfocused and diffused prog band. No comparison to Yes, yup they were prog but especially live you're talking about a lot of energy and pieces that were as complex as some Classical stuff, Renaissance really didn't have players of that caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk8rat Posted September 22, 2016 Author Share Posted September 22, 2016 5 hours ago, the chase said: It sounds to me like Relf deserved a writing credit.. Bitchy sister or not.. perhaps but here is the way I see it; jimmy essentially bought out ownership of the yardbirds and everything that came with that when he agreed to finish their tour. essentially a "hey, I will finish your job, take on your debts but I have rights to everything that was not copywritten and was part of the band" kind of situation. morally sure he should have credited relf but he didn't have to. imo relf kind of owed jimmy one for what he did when he called it quits with the yardbirds so it kind of evens out imo. had jimmy not finished the tour the debt would have probably gone to relf. 2 hours ago, Mithril46 said: Am I missing something, or is there actually a recorded version of Relf's "Tangerine", or is it just lyric stealing ?? And seek out Armageddon, Relf and the guitarist really conjure up some sinister stuff. You won't be disappointed, this album stands on it's own, it isn't a record for Yardbirds completists only. And the jealousy angle, very likely. Renaissance IMO as mentioned earlier by Ipman, seemed a rather unfocused and diffused prog band. No comparison to Yes, yup they were prog but especially live you're talking about a lot of energy and pieces that were as complex as some Classical stuff, Renaissance really didn't have players of that caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Only Way To Fly Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 That's awesome! I never knew till now that this was first worked out with the yardbirds. Does anyone know when Robert first sang on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril46 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I need more info. So this track was put together in one studio, basically within a short time frame ?? What outtake boot or legitimate release is this on ?? Tell me I'm wrong, but the way the voice and instruments are mixed, doesn't sound even like a trainwreck demo from the 60's. Obviously they "did" the song before Zep, but the extreme differences in EQ among other things make the instruments and voice sound like they were recorded in different decades, or sewn together from various demos. One thing for sure, as a sessionman and on this track, Page somehow manages to play out of tune or out of key. Tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, that the band were all in the studio at the same time and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysquid Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 12 hours ago, the chase said: It sounds to me like Relf deserved a writing credit.. Bitchy sister or not.. I agree entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysquid Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 6 hours ago, sk8rat said: perhaps but here is the way I see it; jimmy essentially bought out ownership of the yardbirds and everything that came with that when he agreed to finish their tour. But did he buy out the ownership of the Yardbirds? Mick Wall disputes this in his book ( I'm not saying that book is gospel but it does question the party line on numerous occasions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysquid Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 2 hours ago, Mithril46 said: I need more info. So this track was put together in one studio, basically within a short time frame ?? What outtake boot or legitimate release is this on ?? Tell me I'm wrong, but the way the voice and instruments are mixed, doesn't sound even like a trainwreck demo from the 60's. Obviously they "did" the song before Zep, but the extreme differences in EQ among other things make the instruments and voice sound like they were recorded in different decades, or sewn together from various demos. One thing for sure, as a sessionman and on this track, Page somehow manages to play out of tune or out of key. Tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, that the band were all in the studio at the same time and that's it. I think ( and I may be wrong) that it was recorded in New York at the same time as Spanish Blood, Avron Knows and Taking a Hold on Me. Jimmy wasn't a session an on this he was a member of the band. The out of tuneless could be down to wow and flutter on the source tape used. It sound's like a rough mix. It's a bootleg and not from any official release. I heard that it was intended to appear on the Cumular Limit album but Jimmy vetoed the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boleskinner Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Sounds like the usual Yardbirds flower power mish-mash, where they try to cram too many styles into one song and the end result is an unfocused muddle, with no clear direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 17 hours ago, bluecongo said: A shit ton of professional jealousy is hurled Zeps way. Jimmy was smarter and more creative than the rest of them, financially and musically, and they can't deal with it. He stole a lot, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 6 hours ago, Mithril46 said: I need more info. So this track was put together in one studio, basically within a short time frame ?? I show 'Spanish Blood' and 'Knowing That I'm Losing You' were recorded at Columbia Studios in NYC on Apr 4, 1968. They were in that studio recording various tracks on April 3, 4, & 5th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithril46 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Well, I'll believe that, coming from you. It still sounds suspicious, like someone taking a real outtake and then putting it thru ProTools , although Page's pedal steel and the regular solo are definetly not auto-tuned, etc. I understand about wow and flutter(Page's out of tuneness, key), but I never could quite understand why many of the sessionman solos and the stuff here, Page is clearly out of tune or key.. Although if you think about it, a lot of even great guitar stuff from the 60's, the guitars can be barely in key. Must be the reel to reels. But starting with Zep I, Page clears this stuff up. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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