Slate Chocolate Marble
Slate Chocolate Marble

Led Zeppelin Official Forum

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Xolo1974

Definitive Blueberry Hill

44 posts in this topic

Guys, could use some help please. This seems to be discussed in several places in this forum, but I was hoping for a discussion devoted to this and this alone. 

From what I've read, there are many different audience sources of this gig. Also, many different labels have put this out. 

My question is, what is the definitive version? 

Cheers

Neil

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really a definitive version, because of all the source combos but the Winston Remaster is pretty damn good. A new label called Moonchild has been pressing Winston's freely shared work onto silver discs and selling them for $10 to $40 a title depending on the source. ( I don't like the fact that "Moon Child" is taking a freely shared version and pressing them onto silvers with some artwork and selling them but hey, that's the boot business).  I worked on a fan based version called Heavy Vibraphones which I think stands up to the best of them. The latest offering from Eat A Peach was quite good. The key with that show is to enjoy the different sources because they have different sonic qualities to enjoy. Mono, stereo, more ambient , more dry and focused. I still like the old Cobra boot!  But if you want the best source blend with smooth editing and correct pitch, then you can't go wrong with the Eat A Peach version.   Heavy Vibraphones is quite good IMHO and should be around the trading sites still. If you want silver pressed discs and artwork though you'll have to pay $ and take your chance. I would go for the Winston ( Moon Child) or Eat A Peach versions. 

Edited by porgie66

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would say for Mono the Ken ''Dub''Taylor version and for Stereo, source five are my favourites . A Sweeter Blueberry (A Doinker Tape) on DVD-A is also very good (imo).. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Sanctuary release has tape source 1 as foundation (as most of the boots have) and is a bit shrill to my ears. It lacks the warm bass frequency range and mids & high range are dominant. Altough I am a big fan of most of the Winton Remasters, I think his version of Blueberry Hill isn`t an improvement either. The highs are cut like it underwent heavy noise reduction, so the voice and the instruments sound isolated & it lacks a life concert atmosphere. Maybe the old vinyl boots did sound better, but as they cost a fortune, I will try the Eat A Peach release next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Autumn Moon said:

The Sanctuary release has tape source 1 as foundation (as most of the boots have) and is a bit shrill to my ears. It lacks the warm bass frequency range and mids & high range are dominant. Altough I am a big fan of most of the Winton Remasters, I think his version of Blueberry Hill isn`t an improvement either. The highs are cut like it underwent heavy noise reduction, so the voice and the instruments sound isolated & it lacks a life concert atmosphere. Maybe the old vinyl boots did sound better, but as they cost a fortune, I will try the Eat A Peach release next.

Agreed, I remember being disappointed in the Winston as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Winston's is not his finest but I thought he did a good job with source changes,  and used source 5 as the primary (I think) . The old Cobra boot has a great atmosphere . The problem with the vinyls is they run off speed and of course aren't complete. The Rubber Dubber source is really excellent but incomplete. Check out Heavy Vibraphones if you can still find it on the trading sites. It's a good one....And it's free! We used my vinyl rip of the Rubber Dubber LP as an extra disc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks guys. You can see why I've asked the question can't you!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My personal fave is Individually and Collectively, a 3-source Slumpy matrix, utilizing primarily the old Genuine Masters source, along with the "5th source", and a bit of the Rubber Dubber source to patch.  It's a smooth listen imo. 

Edited by White Phone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, White Phone said:

My personal fave is Individually and Collectively, a 3-source Slumpy matrix, utilizing primarily the old Genuine Masters source, along with the "5th source", and a bit of the Rubber Dubber source to patch.  It's a smooth listen imo. 

So is that it's title 'Slumpy'? Or is that the label? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, White Phone said:

My personal fave is Individually and Collectively, a 3-source Slumpy matrix, utilizing primarily the old Genuine Masters source, along with the "5th source", and a bit of the Rubber Dubber source to patch.  It's a smooth listen imo. 

So is that it's title 'Slumpy'? Or is that the label

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys I've got both individually and collectively and the heavy vibraphones version off the bb website. Sampled some songs and they sound terrific. Far better than anything I have including the eat a peach version imo. First impressions are that heavy vibraphones just shades it. Good job porgie and thanks for the tips

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eat A Peach Live On Blueberry Hill. It's definitive & best sounding version IMO. The spoken intro is taken from monaural distant audience recording as on EV and T2K big sets and the rest is from Dub great sounding source completed in few places with another great sounding alternate tape. Source transitions are done very smoothly and Immigrant Song is complete here for the very first time (it doesn't cut at the first bar like on every other versions).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

blueberry_hill_f1.jpg                      Coblas 1996 release is still one of the best boots out there IMO. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For vinyl, the original early pressings of Rubber Dubber's "Live at LA Forum" or "Live on Blueberry Hill".

For cd, Eat A Peach's "Live on Blueberry Hill" is now the definitive version.

STAY AWAY FROM THE LIGHTHOUSE RELEASE! In fact, stay away from all Lighthouse cd releases...they suck ass!!! Their 1971 Hampton release is a sick joke.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can only second to this: except for 928 all Lighthouse titles are crap, nothing new, just ripped torrents with an ugly EQ and bad edits. I am still wonderin' why some people are buying it :P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 4:19 AM, Xolo1974 said:

So is that it's title 'Slumpy'? Or is that the label

"Slumpy" is the kind soul who worked on the recording and made it sound so nice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, White Phone said:

"Slumpy" is the kind soul who worked on the recording and made it sound so nice.

Well mate, it's friggin good. My difficulty with the other sources, including Eat a Peach, is that you lose either the top end, the low end, the audience etc. This seriously has the best of everything. It's terrific. Transformed this show for me. 

My problem is that I'm too much of a friggin perfectionist. It's to my detriment, because there are unbelievable shows that my ears can't tolerate (e.g 19/09/70). In fact, I don't think it's perfectionism. I think that anything that sounds remotely 'tinny' is torturous for me. Like a cats paws scratching down a blackboard. 

It's really interesting how all of us have different 'bootleg ears'. The audience recordings that are good are better than soundboards e.g Millard, freezer, Copenhagen 79, montreaux...just not that many of them I can tolerate. Shame really. 

Thanks everyone for your comments on the thread and your help. Much appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a bit obsessed with the Dub recording.  That one's the mono recording that was on the original TMOQ vinyl, which was later issued on the Neutral Zone CDs, and then copied by a ton of bootleg labels.  Empress Valley broke the tradition of copying the Neutral Zone CDs by getting ahold of some version of the original Dub mono recording (master?), which they put out on their boxset years ago.  I think the Neutral Zone CDs sound better, but the Empress Valley version has more of the source, and they released it spliced with all of the other sources to complete the gig.  Eat a Peach is an EQ'd rework of the Empress Valley bootleg (I can't remember if it was a good re-EQ or not?), and Heavy Vibraphones is a fan rework of a cassette copy of the Neutral Zone CDs that I think was being advertised as a lowgen copy of the Dub tape (the giveaway that it's not a lowgen is that there is extra crowd noise faked/copied onto the beginning of the show, while the rest of the same Neutral Zone CD cuts are still there).  

I wanted to like the Collectively version (different recording - not the same as the Dub tape), but the matrix goes out of sync here and there. I think it must've been compiled in the early days of that sort of thing.  

For me, I stick with the Empress Valley bootleg if I want the complete show, or the Neutral Zone bootleg if I don't mind the cuts and out of order setlist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eat a Peach isn't EQ and it sounds exactly the same as Neutral Zone bootleg. EV is sourced from less bright copy of Dub recording and from my own knowledge, it sounds similar to the circulated low gen of that source. Neutral Zone / Eat a Peach likely used either a different copy or they got an access to a real master as EV is somewhat weak in comparison (more hiss etc.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, zepster1979 said:

Eat a Peach isn't EQ and it sounds exactly the same as Neutral Zone bootleg. EV is sourced from less bright copy of Dub recording and from my own knowledge, it sounds similar to the circulated low gen of that source. Neutral Zone / Eat a Peach likely used either a different copy or they got an access to a real master as EV is somewhat weak in comparison (more hiss etc.).

Sorry mate, that's not correct. The lowest generations of the Dub tape are the original Neutral Zone CDs from the 1980s (supposedly pressed up by Dub's ex-partner Ken, so would make sense) and the Empress Valley bootleg from the 2000s. The Neutral Zone CDs used the tape that was put on vinyl back in the 70s, with all the songs out of order, and had that same error/repeat note at the beginning of Since I've Been Loving You just like on the original vinyl.  The Empress Valley mix doesn't sound as good as the Neutral Zone CDs, but it has more tape of that source than anything else (check Bootledz to confirm), and the EVSD bootleg came out nearly 20 years after the Neutral Zone discs were made, so I wouldn't be surprised that the master tapes that Empress Valley used probably weren't in very good condition by that point. Also, the Neutral Zone CDs used the tape copy that Dub himself had edited and mixed specifically for the bootleg back in 1970, which Dub is quoted as saying in Clinton Heylin's Bootleg book.  So, even though the Empress Valley bootleg doesn't sound as good as Neutral Zone, maybe that's what the master tape sounds like today.

The Eat a Peach version is an edited composite of the Neutral Zone CDs and the Empress Valley bootleg, that's why it sounds similar to the Neutral Zone CDs in parts. The signs are in where the cuts are, and many of the source switches and fades on the Eat a Peach version are identical to the Empress Valley bootleg, including all of that extra tape at the end of the show, which is only found on the Empress Valley bootleg.  The Heavy Vibraphones group remaster is from a doctored copy of the Neutral Zone CDs, and not from a true lower generation tape of the Dub tape. Besides the pasted extra crowd noise on the beginning, there is the same error/repeat before Since I've Been Loving You that's on the Neutral Zone CDs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got these tapes as low gen so I can clearily proof that ;). EV title may be sourced from masters but, as you've accurately observed, its quality isn't as bright as NZ so I assume the NZ are closer to the masters than EV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, pluribus said:

The Heavy Vibraphones group remaster is from a doctored copy of the Neutral Zone CDs, and not from a true lower generation tape of the Dub tape. Besides the pasted extra crowd noise on the beginning, there is the same error/repeat before Since I've Been Loving You that's on the Neutral Zone CDs.

Hey Toshiro! This is the info for the project we did. I provided the Rubber Dubber LP rip from my own copy but I don't know about the 1st source origins, just that it was supposedly from a Dub Taylor's tape. According to the guy who headed this remaster , the 1st source tape was a low gen acquired in a trade. ?? Maybe he was mistaken but I highlighted in red the text regarding the source used. 

 

Here is the info text:

 

Led Zeppelin - "Heavy Vibraphones"
September, 4th, 1970, Inglewood, California, The Great Western Forum (L.A. Forum)
Raw + Remastered Audience Recordings, (A Group/Personal Project)

Lineage: 

Raw: 

Source 1: "Blueberry Hill,1st Tape Source", (No Label),Trader CD-R > EAC > WAV > Flac Frontend, Encoding                        Options, Level.8, Align On Sector Boundaries > Flac (All Tracks Tested With TLH, No Errors Occured)

Source 2: "Live At The Los Angeles Forum, Original Vinyl Rip", (Rubber Dubber), LP > CD rip using TASCAM CD-RW 700              burner > WAV > CDR (1) > EAC > WAV > Flac Frontend, Encoding Options, Level.8, Align On Sector Boundaries            > Flac

Remastered:

Source 1: "Blueberry Hill,1st Tape Source", (No Label), Trader CD-R > EAC > WAV > Remaster > Flac Frontend, Encoding            Options, Level.8, Align On Sector Boundaries > Flac (All Tracks Tested With TLH, No Errors Occured)

Source 2: "Live At The Los Angeles Forum, Original Vinyl Rip", (Rubber Dubber), LP > CD rip using TASCAM CD-RW 700              burner > WAV > CDR (1) > EAC > WAV > Remaster > Flac Frontend, Encoding Options, Level.8, Align On Sector            Boundaries > Flac

Label: N/A

Original Tapers: Source 1: Dub Taylor (?)
                 Source 2: Scott ("The Rubber Dubber")

This is A Group/Personal Project by "Those guys who're up to no good in Inglewood", The 7th Son, Joel, Porgie, Mark, and Acapulco Gold.

We hope that everyone who picks this up will enjoy it, and will pass it along, and share it with others, or just pass, the choice is yours.

This is not meant to be a "definitive" recording, especially for this recording.

Cheers and thanks go out to:

- All 6 tapers of this infamous show, thank you so much for sharing your recordings with everyone in the community.    If the tapers of these 2 particular sources are out there, and happen to pick this up, we hope that you'll enjoy     what we've done.

- My dear friend who shared this version of the 1st tape source with me, wherever you are, I hope you're doing well.

- My mate Porgie for transferring his LP, sharing it, allowing me to remaster it, helping proof the final drafts,   and for basically getting the ball rolling on this project.

- My mate Mark for helping me out by putting together the artwork for this release, I enjoy working with   you, and appreciate all your help.

Discs 1 to 3,(Raw Tape Sources):

"Blueberry Hill, 1st Tape Source":

Disc One:

1) Introduction/Immigrant Song
2) Heartbreaker
3) Dazed And Confused
4) Bring It On Home
5) That's The Way
6) Bron-Yr-Aur
7) Since I've Been Loving You

Disc Two:

1) Organ Solo/Thank You
2) What Is And What should Never Be
3) Moby Dick
4) Whole Lotta Love (Medley)
               Includes:
                        - Boogie Chillen
                        - Some Other Guy
                        - I've Got A Girl
                        - I'm Movin' On
                        - Think It Over
                        - Honey Bee
                        - The Lemon Song
 
5) Communication Breakdown (Includes: "Good Times,Bad Times", "For What It's Worth", and "I Saw Her Standing There")
6) Out On The Tiles
7) Blueberry Hill

"Live At The Los Angeles Forum, Original Vinyl Rip":

Disc Three:

1) Bring It On Home
2) That's The Way 
3) Bron-Yr-Aur (Cuts In Slightly)
4) Since I've Been Loving You
5) Organ Solo/Thank You
6) What Is And What Should Never Be
7) Whole Lotta Love (Medley, Cut, Incomplete Song)
               Includes:
                        - Boogie Chillen
                        - I'm Movin' On
                        - Honey Bee
                        - The Lemon Song

8) Communication Breakdown (Includes: "Good Times,Bad Times", Cuts Out, Cut, Incomplete Song)

Discs 4 to 6, (Remastered Tape Sources):

"Blueberry Hill, 1st Tape Source":

Disc Four:

1) Introduction
2) Immigrant Song
3) Heartbreaker
4) Dazed And Confused
5) Bring It On Home
6) That's The Way
7) Bron-Yr-Aur
8) Since I've Been Loving You

Disc Five:

1) Organ Solo
2) Thank You
3) What Is And What Should Never Be
4) Moby Dick
5) Whole Lotta Love (Medley)
               Includes:
                        - Boogie Chillen
                        - Some Other Guy
                        - I've Got A Girl
                        - I'm Movin' On
                        - Think It Over
                        - Honey Bee
                        - The Lemon Song

6) Communication Breakdown (Includes: "Good Times,Bad Times", "For What It's Worth", and "I Saw Her Standing There")
7) Out On The Tiles
8) Blueberry Hill

"Live At The Los Angeles Forum, Original Vinyl Rip":

Disc Six:

1) Bring It On Home
2) That's The Way 
3) Bron-Yr-Aur (Cuts In Slightly)
4) Since I've Been Loving You
5) Organ Solo
6) Thank You 
7) What Is And What Should Never Be
8) Whole Lotta Love (Medley, Cut, Incomplete Song)
               Includes:
                        - Boogie Chillen
                        - I'm Movin' On
                        - Honey Bee
                        - The Lemon Song)

9) Communication Breakdown (Includes: "Good Times,Bad Times", Cuts Out, Cut, Incomplete Song)

Enjoy!

Please Do Not Convert To Lossy Formats
Please Do Not Sell
Please Share With Others

Notes:

This project is a combination of both raw and remastered versions of 2 of our favourite, and what we personally think are the best sounding versions of the 1st (TMOQ) and 2nd (Rubber Dubber) tape sources of the infamous "Blueberry Hill" Show.

The recordings have just been remastered, they have not been merged together with other tape sources to make a complete show.

We chose to do just straight remasters of these tape sources for this reason:

There are 6 tape sources of this show in circulation, each source is very good, and brings something to the table,   (i.e: some have more tape in between songs, some are more complete than others, some sound better than others, etc).  
Zeppelin collectors have very strong feelings about this show, and what they feel is the best tape source of the 6   in circulation, and what sources would make for a "perfect mix". 

They also have very strong opinions about which version of the tape is the best, so trying to put together a merge   of this show that will please collectors is a very tricky thing to do. 

We decided to spare ourselves that headache and just focus on improving the sound quality of these tape sources.

This project was just done in fun, we had no intentions of releasing a definitive version of this show.

The 1st tape source came to me in a trade I made with a very close friend of mine many years ago.

I've only traded it out to other people a handfull of times, I really didn't think it was anymore special then the other versions of the 1st tape source until I started hearing other versions/releases of the 1st tape source.

This version I'm sharing with everyone has a much fuller, and brighter sound to it then previous releases.

The biggest advantage this version has over the others though is that it's running at the correct tape speed, older versions ( like GM's "Blueberry Hill") run too slow.

The 2nd tape source (known as the "Rubber Dubber" source) comes straight from an original Rubber Dubber LP.

Porgie's transfer sounds much better than the boot releases I've heard. 

Whether the change in sound quality is due to the transfer, or if they transferred it from something like a cassette copy of the LP (like some of the "PB" releases) I don't know, but I personally find the silver releases to be a little duller than Porgie's transfer (nothing beats the sound of vinyl).

As for the remasters, this is what we've done:

- We've tried to balance the instruments and the acoustics as much as possible. 
- We've reduced as much tape hiss as possible. 
- We've tried to bring out things that were buried in the recording (crowd cheers,clapping,commentary). 

The title comes from a Plantation Robert makes before the band play "Since I've Been Loving You".

We wanted to come up with a different title idea for this project instead of just recycling the "Blueberry Hill" title because we felt it's been done to death.

We had come up with several different title ideas, we had thought about calling the project "Up To No Good In Inglewood", "Floor 'Em At The Forum", and "Manifest Destiny".

They sounded good, but really didn't stick, and pack the kind of punch we wanted.

One day, while listening to the work we'd done on the recording..it hits us.

We came to the part where the band is about to play "Since I've Been Loving You", and he says to the crowd "Heavy Vibraphones!", and we thought that sounded pretty cool, and decided to use it.

We hope everyone here will enjoy this.

Cheers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, zepster1979 said:

Got these tapes as low gen so I can clearily proof that ;). EV title may be sourced from masters but, as you've accurately observed, its quality isn't as bright as NZ so I assume the NZ are closer to the masters than EV.

Does the low gen copy of yours have the repeat note at the beginning of Since I've Been Loving You? Does it have all of the same cuts between songs? If so, then it's sourced from the Neutral Zone CDs.  There were lots of bootlegs that came out after the Neutral Zone CDs that put the songs back in the correct order, but they also all kept that same repeat before Since I've Been Loving You and they all had the same cuts between songs as the Neutral Zone CDs.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now