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ThreeSticks

Led Zeppelin in the months following Bonzo's passing

160 posts in this topic

30 minutes ago, babysquid said:

But we to know that they chose to shelve it.

Because they couldn't agree on a format for the new project without Plant.

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Well I think Jimmy has a very strong predilection for Robert's vocals Despite the possibility

of interesting music arising from the post 07' non- Pant rehearsals, I really think Jimmy

had mixed feelings  about going on without Plant. Despite the rancor between them, it is known

for some projects the audition tapes Jimmy heard were not encouraging to him. How could you

possibly replace Robert ??? Yet on the other hand Jimmy has not been that flexible concerning

musical style and breaking out of the Zep mindset.

Edited by Mithril46
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On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 2:26 PM, SteveAJones said:

After July 1977 they weren't touring so they weren't earning (as much).

Plus, Plant probably put his foot down after the death of his son that he was staying in England with his family regardless of the taxes. As I recall he was deeply resentful of Grant and Co. of forcing them to relocate to L.A. after the accident in Greece. His wife was really, really hurt as were his kids.

 

 

Edited by ThreeSticks

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2 hours ago, Mithril46 said:

Yet on the other hand Jimmy has not been that flexible concerning musical style and breaking out of the Zep mindset.

My own personal theory regarding Jimmy's post-Zeppelin output is that every great musician eventually finds their musical 'voice'... Zeppelin was  Jimmy's musical voice, so it's not exactly a mystery why his output since hasn't veered too far from the beaten track... plus, don't forget the guy was raising a whole family in that time, and that's not a part-time occupation as any and all parents will tell you!!!

Jimmy owes us nothing at this point; he's earned the right to take it easy and enjoy life as he sees fit without any pressure or deadlines.

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9 hours ago, Boleskinner said:

Because they couldn't agree on a format for the new project without Plant.

 Plus every headline would be ""Without Plant". They'd be answering more questions on Plant than the project itself. I'm reaching here but who knows.

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Well YES did the same thing with Anderson Bruford-Wakeman-Howe without Chris Squire, who owned the "YES" name. So they

said "And Evening With YES Music". Different dilemma, as Howe and Anderson were not easily replaced, nor is 

Chris Squire, but Tony Levin (bass) performed admirably. And, sure, back to Page, yes he certainly found his voice,

but actually truly evolving musicians keep learning other styles and stretching their vocabulary. JPJ has done this,

Plant has done it, although Plant IMO has not pulled it off some of the time. There are so many things Jimmy could do,

but I guess playing hockey arenas I imagine are a prerequisite.

 

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12 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

My own personal theory regarding Jimmy's post-Zeppelin output is that every great musician eventually finds their musical 'voice'... Zeppelin was  Jimmy's musical voice.

I recall a quote where someone asked him about his solo career, meaning Outrider etc, and he said "well Zeppelin was my solo career".

 

I don't mind him being, if you like, curator of the Zep Museum, I just wish he'd stop saying "there will be new music next year" then not doing it. If he just said "no, after all, I'm done" then fine, I agree, he doesn't owe us anything.

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14 hours ago, Mithril46 said:

Well I think Jimmy has a very strong predilection for Robert's vocals

This begs an interesting question: I've always assumed that Communication Breakdown (& Good Times Bad Times?) was already mostly written by the time the band had their first rehearsal. Presumably Page had been playing around with the riff at late period Yardbirds soundchecks or in the quiet period that June after the last US Yardbirds gig.

 

But Keith Relf's voice would not have fit the track at all well imo, whereas it suited Plant's more tenor voice perfectly. So did Page always have a singer in mind with a higher pitch or wider range, even before seeing Plant sing? Or was it just serendipity?

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12 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

don't forget the guy was raising a whole family in that time, and that's not a part-time occupation as any and all parents will tell you!!!

Granted that became a priority, but it didn't have to be a showstopper. During this same time Eric Clapton and his wife raised three daughters while he continued to release albums and tour the world every couple of years.

 

10 minutes ago, 76229 said:

This begs an interesting question: I've always assumed that Communication Breakdown (& Good Times Bad Times?) was already mostly written by the time the band had their first rehearsal. Presumably Page had been playing around with the riff at late period Yardbirds soundchecks or in the quiet period that June after the last US Yardbirds gig.

But Keith Relf's voice would not have fit the track at all well imo, whereas it suited Plant's more tenor voice perfectly. So did Page always have a singer in mind with a higher pitch or wider range, even before seeing Plant sing? Or was it just serendipity?

His first choice was Terry Reid, so listen to some Terry Reid material from that era I suppose.

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17 hours ago, ThreeSticks said:

Plus, Plant probably put his foot down after the death of his son that he was staying in England with his family regardless of the taxes. As I recall he was deeply resentful of Grant and Co. of forcing them to relocate to L.A. after the accident in Greece. His wife was really, really hurt as were his kids.

 

 

 I don't know if Grant and company forced him into tax exile....

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On 2/19/2017 at 8:40 PM, zooma said:

I quite disagree. John Paul Jones has never been better than he is now, in either his musicianship or creativity. Just wait until he releases The Goast Sonata until you make that judgement. Robert  has continued to be creative as well even though his path has not been in expectation with many of his long time fans. Jimmy has been the only one who retired, which is fine too. I just wish he would comes to grip with it and stop leading naive people on.

 We can agree to disagree. While I am a big John Paul Jones fan and he is an excellent musician there's not a whole lot of his musical content that I want to listen to often.    I rather dislike Robert's last album and I can't even stomach to listen to that Maggie song.  I'm also rather tired of the Moroccan or African sound that he tries to "plant" in his music.

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Well Jimmy may well have had a "mold" in his mind to form Zep. Reid had contract stuff and Marriott some ridiculous

mob ties involved. Sorry about keen Yardbirds fans, but Relf seriously was likely not even considered for Zep. Not much

range, power, forget it. I think anyone who has not liked JPJ solo material should check out some live stuff. He is really

pushing some boundaries and you also hear the huge effect on Zep, like, "no wonder why Page or Plant  solo are really

missing something".Of course Bonzo too, mainly. Plant has ventured into the exotic as well, but he doesn't quite pull

it off IMO half the time. I've heard he has become a control freak, and that's the reason he often has musicians simply

not of his caliber. Competent surely, but Plant wants Yes men. Jimmy seems much more receptive to other band members

suggestion or input; unfortunately this laid back attitude sprung the Firm, etc.,.

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On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 8:18 PM, jasonlovesvids said:

 I don't know if Grant and company forced him into tax exile....

I read in an interview where Plant said he was very unhappy about Grant and Co. forcing him to go into tax exile after the accident in Greece. I swear I read this somewhere. Not making it up.  It wasn't just that he was angry at the British govt and their tax laws.

Edited by ThreeSticks

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3 hours ago, ThreeSticks said:

I read in an interview where Plant said he was very unhappy about Grant and Co. forcing him to go into tax exile after the accident in Greece. I swear I read this somewhere. Not making it up.  It wasn't just that he was angry at the British govt and their tax laws.

In 1975/76 the income tax rate in the UK for earnings over £20,000 was 83%.  Basically this means that for every £1 they earned (over £20,000) they got to keep 17p.  (Tax on earnings up to £20,000 would have left them with a tax bill of around £13,000.  So - earn £20,000 and take home £7,000). 

As an example, let's pretend that they earned £250,000 in one year - a lot of money in 1975, but not inconceivable for them at the time:
First £20,000 you get to keep about £7000 (actually a little more, but I'm keeping it simple).
That leaves £230,000 to pay 83% tax on - a tax bill of £190,900.
That left them with £39,100, plus the £7000 kept before the higher rate:  A total of $46,100 they get to keep.... well actually it would be less than this too, because I've not allowed for National Insurance contributions (which , despite being called 'contributions' are actually compulsory).

That's a total payment to the taxman of £203,900 from earnings of £250,000.

I honestly don't think Grant 'forced' them to go into tax exile - I'm sure he would have just given them the best advice, which would have been 'get out of dodge or the taxman takes pretty much everything you've earned'.
Their earnings and the taxman forced them into tax exile.
You don't have to be a genius to look at those figures and think that they probably thought for themselves: 'why do I have to give 4/5ths of what I earned to the taxman.  What can I do to avoid this?'.

Edited by woz70

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4 hours ago, ThreeSticks said:

I read in an interview where Plant said he was very unhappy about Grant and Co. forcing him to go into tax exile after the accident in Greece. I swear I read this somewhere. Not making it up.  It wasn't just that he was angry at the British govt and their tax laws.

Why would Grant or anyone else give a single shit how much in tax Plant was willing to, or not to pay? Grant nor anyone else forced Plant to do a damn thing, nor would there have been any motivation to do so. If Plant went to Jersey or Malibu or the moon to avoid taxes that was his decision and his alone.

I hope that did not come across as brusque, that was not my intent. 

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On 20/02/2017 at 3:09 AM, Mithril46 said:

Well I think Jimmy has a very strong predilection for Robert's vocals Despite the possibility

of interesting music arising from the post 07' non- Pant rehearsals, I really think Jimmy

had mixed feelings  about going on without Plant. Despite the rancor between them, it is known

for some projects the audition tapes Jimmy heard were not encouraging to him. How could you

possibly replace Robert ??? Yet on the other hand Jimmy has not been that flexible concerning

musical style and breaking out of the Zep mindset.

I tend to agree.   Jimmy looks at Robert as a marriage he cannot ever walk away from, it's as if he relies on Robert, can't conjure up the courage to test the waters with others.  The light that Plant brought to Pages music through his lyrics and delivery has never been found elsewhere and Page almost seems lost without Plant singing.  It could be Plant singing off key, forgetting lyrics, sounding like an old dying hen and it would still appeal to Jimmy more than any young crooner.  

I've come to the conclusion that we will not see Page doing much creatively ever again unless Plant joins him on stage or in the studio, the chances of this seem slim and unfortunately this magical era in music will soon be put out to pastor.  Thankfully we have memories and youtube.  

As much as Page suggested Clapton couldn't get past the blues, Page could never get past Zeppelin.  I don't mean this as an insult, it's just one of those relationships forged in the cosmos that Page refuses to move on from.  In some respects I can't blame him, in others, it's a shame he never found another writing partner that could at least provide some creative output that was at least memorable.  

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4 hours ago, woz70 said:

In 1975/76 the income tax rate in the UK for earnings over £20,000 was 83%.  Basically this means that for every £1 they earned (over £20,000) they got to keep 17p.  (Tax on earnings up to £20,000 would have left them with a tax bill of around £13,000.  So - earn £20,000 and take home £7,000). 

As an example, let's pretend that they earned £250,000 in one year - a lot of money in 1975, but not inconceivable for them at the time:
First £20,000 you get to keep about £7000 (actually a little more, but I'm keeping it simple).
That leaves £230,000 to pay 83% tax on - a tax bill of £190,900.
That left them with £39,100, plus the £7000 kept before the higher rate:  A total of $46,100 they get to keep.... well actually it would be less than this too, because I've not allowed for National Insurance contributions (which , despite being called 'contributions' are actually compulsory).

That's a total payment to the taxman of £203,900 from earnings of £250,000.

I honestly don't think Grant 'forced' them to go into tax exile - I'm sure he would have just given them the best advice, which would have been 'get out of dodge or the taxman takes pretty much everything you've earned'.
Their earnings and the taxman forced them into tax exile.
You don't have to be a genius to look at those figures and think that they probably thought for themselves: 'why do I have to give 4/5ths of what I earned to the taxman.  What can I do to avoid this?'.

I think it's just true that Plant wanted to keep his money more than  be with his family. Why didn't you take his family with him to Switzerland or LA so the family could be together?  but he chose to go alone.    His wife  could have convalesced somewhere else in Europe.    I think in the end Bonzo decided to stay home and said screw the money. 

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I think Plant's angst during the "tax exile" period was at Page and Grant squirreling him into a studio to record Presence when he basically couldn't stand. 

From everything I've read, Plant likes a dollar as much as anyone, and no one could blame anyone of the era who had money not wanting to give it all to the British government.

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13 hours ago, jasonlovesvids said:

I think it's just true that Plant wanted to keep his money more than  be with his family. Why didn't you take his family with him to Switzerland or LA so the family could be together?  but he chose to go alone.    His wife  could have convalesced somewhere else in Europe.    I think in the end Bonzo decided to stay home and said screw the money. 

FFS, I can't believe anyone here is still busting Robert's balls over going to Malibu from Aug to Oct 1975, then on to Munich in November. First of all, he HAD TO leave England to live in tax exile or lose a HUGE sum of money. Secondly, it was thought that Malibu would reinvigorate his spirits AND be conducive to working on their next album. Thirdly, Maureen continued to undergo medical treatment for her fractured pelvis for the remainder of the year. Finally, if I'm not mistaken Carmen was attending school. He returned home by Christmas 1975, yet some of you guys make it sound as if he abandoned them. Give it a rest already?

1976%2002%2017%20%20Sentinel%20Star%20Or

Sentinel Star (Orlando, FL) (February 17, 1976)

Edited by SteveAJones

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At the end of the day, the people who really deserve to be blamed are labour and the UK tax laws at the time. Rod Stewart said in the mid-70's he was paying 98 cents to the dollar in taxes by living in England. So he had to get out and live in California.  There's a reason why almost every British musician left the country in the 1970's. That kind of tax rate is utterly insane. If forced musicians into making some very hard decisions.

Edited by ThreeSticks

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55 minutes ago, ThreeSticks said:

At the end of the day, the people who really deserve to be blamed are labour and the UK tax laws at the time. Rod Stewart said in the mid-70's he was paying 98 cents to the dollar in taxes by living in England. So he had to get out and live in California.  There's a reason why almost every British musician left the country in the 1970's. That kind of tax rate is utterly insane. If forced musicians into making some very hard decisions.

Typical human nature bullshit, that is to say it is either one extreme or the other. One system and you pay everything and then some, on the flipside a system which does not tax enough. God forbid common sense tax structure is put in place. Then again I do not live in the UK so I have no clue what current tax rate are vs. the 70's.

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7 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

FFS, I can't believe anyone here is still busting Robert's balls over going to Malibu from Aug to Oct 1975, then on to Munich in November. First of all, he HAD TO leave England to live in tax exile or lose a HUGE sum of money. Secondly, it was thought that Malibu would reinvigorate his spirits AND be conducive to working on their next album. Thirdly, Maureen continued to undergo medical treatment for her fractured pelvis for the remainder of the year. Finally, if I'm not mistaken Carmen was attending school. He returned home by Christmas 1975, yet some of you guys make it sound as if he abandoned them. Give it a rest already?

 

Sentinel Star (Orlando, FL) (February 17, 1976)

Like I said before:  I think it's  true that Plant wanted to keep his money more than  be with his family...

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On 2/22/2017 at 3:36 PM, ThreeSticks said:

I read in an interview where Plant said he was very unhappy about Grant and Co. forcing him to go into tax exile after the accident in Greece. I swear I read this somewhere. Not making it up.  It wasn't just that he was angry at the British govt and their tax laws.

Well they had a summer tour planned that was canceled after Robert's accident. So, right or wrong they booked studio time to keep busy, stay out of the country and record Presence. Robert said he was furious at Jimmy and Peter that he had to be recording at the time and referenced the lyrics to Hots On For Nowhere as a dig at the 2 of them.  

Edited by the chase

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12 hours ago, ThreeSticks said:

At the end of the day, the people who really deserve to be blamed are labour and the UK tax laws at the time. Rod Stewart said in the mid-70's he was paying 98 cents to the dollar in taxes by living in England. So he had to get out and live in California.  There's a reason why almost every British musician left the country in the 1970's. That kind of tax rate is utterly insane. If forced musicians into making some very hard decisions.

Why does anyone have to be blamed for anything? The tax laws were what they were (I'm a socialist myself so have no issues with them) & no-one was forced to stay in any country against their will as far as I'm aware.

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23 hours ago, the chase said:

Well they had a summer tour planned that was canceled after Robert's accident. So, right or wrong they booked studio time to keep busy, stay out of the country and record Presence. Robert said he was furious at Jimmy and Peter that he had to be recording at the time and referenced the lyrics to Hots On For Nowhere as a dig at the 2 of them.  

 Can you produce the interview where he said that? 

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