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irondirigible

QUESTIONS ABOUT LED ZEPPELIN BOOTLEG RECORDINGS

30 posts in this topic

I know that they are basically not legal to possess, trade, or sell unless one owns the rights to them.

 

I see there are TONS of Led Zep bootlegs.  Who owns them?  Who would have the rights to them?

 

And I am wondering... will we see more of them come out as official releases, like How The West Was Won (which, I assume contains material previously available as a bootleg)

 

I think Led Zeppelin fans would only be too happy to see a Zeppelin version of the "From The Vaults" series as Rolling Stones fans have enjoyed in recent years.  Many of those Stones recordings were once boots.  I am sure there is much more out there that Led Zeppelin could release as live albums.  We know that the chances of them reuniting and making new material is pretty slim.  (okay, a reunion is not impossible but new music is hard to imagine)

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I will reply to this inquiry and this is just my opinion, I do not think that any "real bootleg" from Led Zeppelin in the 1970's will ever come out as an official release.  That will never happen. 

I used to buy Led Zeppelin bootlegs in late 1980's/early 1990's when I used to go to New York City and pay $25 for a single compact disc.  I probably accumulated at least 50-75 LZ bootlegs on my many forays into NYC.  That was about 25+ years ago.

Since the advent of YouTube, I know that I will never spend another dollar on Led Zeppelin bootlegs (the ones that I did not purchase way back then), because I can listen to hundreds of different Led Zeppelin bootlegs for free on said website. 

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i too recall the days of bootleg CDs being for sale for lots of major artists. I would guess all these same boots we're around on LP or cassette prior to that.  Now all this stuff is free and readily available.

 

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But, the rock star [Page] said: "The legitimate part is where fans trade music, but once you start packaging it up and you do not know what you are getting, you are breaking the rules legally and morally.

"There are some of these recordings where it is just a whirring and you cannot hear the music.

"If you have something like this that appears legitimate then it is just not right."

Page then told how he went into a major record store in New York and caught them selling pirate Led Zeppelin music.

He said: "I went to check what they had for the band and Jimmy Page and found a gig from Earl's Court in London

"I do not know where it surfaced from, but I contacted my New York lawyers to say the shop was selling something as if it was official, but clearly it was not."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6917449.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6970651.stm

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Here's he way I see it --

 

Selling bootlegs of artists should be illegal.  It's no different than someone photo copying the latest Stephen King novel and selling it to make money.


What I seriously question is the hardcore Led Zeppelin fan downloading a full concert and keeping it for her/his own enjoyment whenever they wish.  Let's say she/he has been a fan for many years, spent plenty on concerts, albums, merchandise, totally loves the band.  You're telling that this person downloading that concert constitutes an immoral act?

But  yeah, selling boots for profit is wrong and is illegal whether we are talking about selling a copy of a Miley Cyrus song or a '75 concert of our beloved Led Zeppelin

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, irondirigible said:

i too recall the days of bootleg CDs being for sale for lots of major artists. I would guess all these same boots we're around on LP or cassette prior to that.  Now all this stuff is free and readily available.

 

 

Nothing is ever free in life.  Just hand the car keys over to Google and let them continue to break pass the Trillion dollar mark as a powerful corporation ?  What kind of car do you drive ?  I hope you know all these so called phree hosting sites the people who run those sites are all driving BMW's.  And they also plant spyware and virus on your computer to track you and sell your info to 3rd party companies.

Edited by SymphonyX

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, irondirigible said:

Here's he way I see it --

 

Selling bootlegs of artists should be illegal.  It's no different than someone photo copying the latest Stephen King novel and selling it to make money.


What I seriously question is the hardcore Led Zeppelin fan downloading a full concert and keeping it for her/his own enjoyment whenever they wish.  Let's say she/he has been a fan for many years, spent plenty on concerts, albums, merchandise, totally loves the band.  You're telling that this person downloading that concert constitutes an immoral act?

But  yeah, selling boots for profit is wrong and is illegal whether we are talking about selling a copy of a Miley Cyrus song or a '75 concert of our beloved Led Zeppelin

Your analogy is not really accurate as selling photocopies of a book is pirating officially published media, like the Beatles Mono box set I bought on Amazon for $99 that turned out to be a bootleg copy, replete with scanned artwork. That kind of thing is really fucked up. Live tapes are a different matter. They are more analogous to selling Stephen King's unpublished essays, stories, notes etc. While wrong legally, there is still tremendous demand from fans who admire the artists work. Our relationship with bootleg companies is fairly complicated. Even Page buys them, and has probably appreciated the fact that the are recorded documents of himself from the glory days. I don't mind paying for a quality release of a tape that is either unique to that bootlegger , or if they did a really smashing EQ job and great artwork. Otherwise, downloading freely traded tapes is the way to go. Yes , it may be legally "wrong" to sell  recordings of a bands music without their permission but frankly, sales of a newly surfaced soundboard tape aren't going to hurt Led Zeps financial security. 

Edited by porgie66

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Everyone in here has - or at the very least listens to Youtube boots. Things never officially released. I cannot see how Page would ever have a problem with his most die hard fans eating up every bit of recorded glory. Yes, he loses control which is no small thing, but he would know the incredible delight and appreciation in that respect. There would hardly be a member here that does not have a substantial cache of official releases and merchandise. So it is nothing to do with missed revenue. Even some of the more outstanding Youtube clips (boots). You read some of the comments and it turns people on to the band! It is a pathway into the world of Zeppelin.

Things packaged up to look official with a horrendous recording, of course that sucks. If you happen to be a casual fan, or are looking to "see what Led Zeppelin is like" and you stumble onto that and it's your first taste, you'd probably be turned off from ever actually giving Zep a fair go. It's more than a bit shit.

There was little choice but to produce and sell boots in the 80's. Now though with the webs? Ha! It's all available baby. And GOOD. By in large it leads more people in the door to Zeppelin greatness - and grab their official stuff. It overwhelmingly now benefits the band.

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On 5/28/2017 at 7:59 PM, irondirigible said:

I know that they are basically not legal to possess, trade, or sell unless one owns the rights to them.

 

I see there are TONS of Led Zep bootlegs.  Who owns them?  Who would have the rights to them?

 

And I am wondering... will we see more of them come out as official releases, like How The West Was Won (which, I assume contains material previously available as a bootleg)

 

I think Led Zeppelin fans would only be too happy to see a Zeppelin version of the "From The Vaults" series as Rolling Stones fans have enjoyed in recent years.  Many of those Stones recordings were once boots.  I am sure there is much more out there that Led Zeppelin could release as live albums.  We know that the chances of them reuniting and making new material is pretty slim.  (okay, a reunion is not impossible but new music is hard to imagine)

You need to read this book.

592dd2d65e487_51RITJt6QsL._SX258_BO1204203200_.jpg.4f5110a35f1c2529e309eba5218f8207.jpg

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8 hours ago, Strider said:

You need to read this book.

592dd2d65e487_51RITJt6QsL._SX258_BO1204203200_.jpg.4f5110a35f1c2529e309eba5218f8207.jpg

Anybody who is into collecting bootlegs needs to read that book. 

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Back in 2012 I started a thread about the morality of downloading bootlegs -

Got some interesting responses at the time.  I have a problem with people profiteering from the tapes stolen from Page's house because they were his personal property. In a way, downloading any bootleg is "immoral" because the royalties ain't getting paid, however JP gave an implied ok to fans trading recordings in his quote related to a court case some years ago. Runs for cover...

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, nigelss said:

Back in 2012 I started a thread about the morality of downloading bootlegs -

Got some interesting responses at the time.  I have a problem with people profiteering from the tapes stolen from Page's house because they were his personal property. In a way, downloading any bootleg is "immoral" because the royalties ain't getting paid, however JP gave an implied ok to fans trading recordings in his quote related to a court case some years ago. Runs for cover...

A guy making or obtaining a bootleg LZ recording and then selling 1000 physical copies for profit is one thing.  And a fan who owns every LZ official release and tons of other LZ related items downloading a bootleg just for her/his own enjoyment is quite another thing.  I suppose both could be seen as guilty of some offence (although there would be jurisdictional issues there as well)


Anyway, not all bootlegging activity is the same.  I know a case could probably be made to say that no one should ever download or otherwise obtain an LZ boot.  But I just can't see a problem with a devoted fan wanting to hear them live back in their prime.

 

Edited by irondirigible

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Posted (edited)

55 minutes ago, irondirigible said:

A guy making or obtaining a bootleg LZ recording and then selling 1000 physical copies for profit is one thing.  And a fan who owns every LZ official release and tons of other LZ related items downloading a bootleg just for her/his own enjoyment is quite another thing.  I suppose both could be seen as guilty of some offence (although there would be jurisdictional issues there as well)


Anyway, not all bootlegging activity is the same.  I know a case could probably be made to say that no one should ever download or otherwise obtain an LZ boot.  But I just can't see a problem with a devoted fan wanting to hear them live back in their prime.

 

I actually talked with Page once, and mentioned the fact that I listen to live Zep shows all the time and how much I enjoyed hearing how their performances varied and all the improvisation that went on , etc. I thought he might glare at me and walk away but he said he enjoyed hearing them as well and said he had " acquired quite a nice collection". I then told him about how I saw a rather funny signed photo of him in a bootleg shop in Shinjuku with the owner. He laughed and said " you saw that!!??" So, it's definitely a complicated subject.  That being said,  I don't consider trading live shows bootlegging, even though it may breach legal distinctions. Bootlegging is the sale of unofficial product. Stealing a tape from the owner and sharing it freely is obviously very wrong, but selling it is really objectional and opportunistic. Sharing of personally made tapes shouldn't much worry an artist worth millions of $ ....other than to be embarrassed about their performance. Selling a tapers personally shared recordings that were downloaded and pressed to vinyl or cd is really objectionable. That's total opportunism.

 

Edited by porgie66

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I agree, trading, as opposed to selling, should be seen differently.  

We now live in an era where everyone has free and easy access to all this stuff.  They want it, they see it, they can have a copy in minutes (if not less time).  Its very hard to say to fans of a band that they love that they must NOT listen to or download their favourite band's awesome live shows from the 1970s.  

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It's a shame that JP is probably not the kind of person who'd just put out an 'official bootleg' series, as Zep would be a great band for this. I've got a Lynyrd Skynyrd show from 1975 in Cardiff which was issued from the Wolfgang's Vault archives by one of the major labels [can't remember which one] as an 'official bootleg', no editing at all, just laid onto CD and sold at the store, and it's a really great show. I love it when bands do this, but JP is very perfectionist and I doubt he'd release anything in that way.

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9 hours ago, Cosmic_Equilibrium said:

It's a shame that JP is probably not the kind of person who'd just put out an 'official bootleg' series, as Zep would be a great band for this. I've got a Lynyrd Skynyrd show from 1975 in Cardiff which was issued from the Wolfgang's Vault archives by one of the major labels [can't remember which one] as an 'official bootleg', no editing at all, just laid onto CD and sold at the store, and it's a really great show. I love it when bands do this, but JP is very perfectionist and I doubt he'd release anything in that way.

I've always had a hard time trying to square the whole "Jimmy is a perfectionist" bit when he puts out sloppy as hell playing like on "Hot Dog", for example, for all the world to hear :lol: 

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On 5/29/2017 at 10:02 AM, irondirigible said:

Here's he way I see it --

 

Selling bootlegs of artists should be illegal.  It's no different than someone photo copying the latest Stephen King novel and selling it to make money.

 

Except, you'd be getting the exact text of the book. With bootlegs, you're getting rough drafts and unreleased stories. 99% of the fans that would want the unreleased stuff have already bought all of the official ones, and have probably spent much more than the average fan, supporting the artist.

Copies and knockoffs are considered "pirate" releases. Bootlegs are the things the record company would never release. Yes, that angers some artists, but it's their own fault for being so enjoyable in the first place.

 

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It's all about the corporations ie big record companies, not the music anymore. People behind them wants to copyright literally everything that belongs to them due to contracts and this is the real way the bootlegs are illegal. Plus the egos of artists who became more popular and started to think they're something more than the others. That's my five cents to that discussion.

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8 hours ago, zepster1979 said:

It's all about the corporations ie big record companies, not the music anymore. People behind them wants to copyright literally everything that belongs to them due to contracts and this is the real way the bootlegs are illegal. Plus the egos of artists who became more popular and started to think they're something more than the others. That's my five cents to that discussion.

We all wish musicians would make everything they did free, but shouldn't they be rewarded for their talents and efforts? Speak with your wallet and stop buying music and they'll get the message that you disapprove of their prices.

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They should be and bootlegs are the best proof of that, at least in my opinion. Some of them are collecting such products and only the record companies are still the only subjects not happy seeing that. Why? because they're trying to copyright literally everything that is recorded, and this including your own fuckin' tape. Look at these silly reissues with so-called bonus tracks, does it go in the right direction when you're about to pay again for something you know and just to get one or two "new" songs? The reality is that the only real new stuff, with a few exception, can be only found on bootlegs and this is the real reason for all that buzz around.

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I have another bootleg question....

Does anyone else beside the band potentially (or confirmed) own really good audio and/or video but for a lack of agreement for royalties, or contractual problems, it will remain unreleased? Like a venue/promoter/some other entity owns the sound/audio, like The BBC Sessions - which I believe JP had to negotiate for the rights to release.

I understand Peter Grant would 99.9% of the time absolutely dodge this very scenario. Is there that 0.1% instance?

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Posted (edited)

On 5/28/2017 at 10:59 PM, irondirigible said:

 

And I am wondering... will we see more of them come out as official releases, like How The West Was Won (which, I assume contains material previously available as a bootleg)

 

No, you'd think that, but they kept that holy grail under tight wraps. Only what appears to be disc two of the 27th has slipped out. Can't remember if it was before or after HTWWW. I'm honestly still surprised it hasn't weaseled its way out. Probably because the unaltered shows have official release potential.

Bootlegs are like drugs, people are gonna get them one way or another, can't be stopped.

Of course there are OK audeince tapes for those though.

Edited by Dirty Work

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I think there are probably countless bootlegs that contain great and interesting performances, but would not make the cut for an official release due to their sound quality.

So, assuming the band has the material, they wouldn't necessarily want it out there.

Consider the Mike Millard tapes, like Listen To This Eddie!  Its a great performance, as are many other bootleg recordings, but the sound quality just isn't at the level that you want for an official release.

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Posted (edited)

^^

Disc #2 from 6/27/72?  

Do you mean the three tracks Dancing Days, WISWSNB and Moby Dick?  These three songs surfaced about a decade before HTWWW was officially released 

Or is there more material that you alluded to??

 

 

Edited by Sticks of Fire

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