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irondirigible

I refuse to believe there won't be any more official release of live albums.

73 posts in this topic

We know Zeppelin are unlikely to play together again and just as unlikely to record new material.  But with so much live stuff floating around out there in the eather, its hard to imagine that we won't see more live releases one day.  How The West Was Won is almost 15 years old.  Celebration Day (based on 2007 concert) was in 2012.

 

I think we are due for something new (ie a 70s concert album) soon.

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I refuse to believe this as well. There's got to be something that Pagey would be interested in sharing with the world. As a major Zeppelin fan, anything with any live Zep is an immediate buy for me, and I imagine most fans feel similarly. With things in the vault such as the Earl's Court shows or the '71/'72 Japanese shows (i believe the '72 shows were recorded) or Montreux '70, there's got to be something there. Hell, I'd even settle for a CD version of the Albert Hall concert from the DVD.

In my dream world though, we would get super deluxes of How the West was Won and The Song Remains the Same, and these sets would include the complete shows that were used for the original albums ('72 LA and Long Beach over 6 CDs, all 3 nights at MSG over 9 discs). Of course, this would never happen since Page is a perfectionist, but I'm allowed to dream! 

I do think a remastered HTWWW is necessary, as the original doesn't sound so great. If Page decided to make this part of the remastered campaign, he could, at the very least, include some of the encores from the LA show. 

We would also have to accept that any new live material that is released will undoubtedly be edited. Regardless, I would certainly purchase any new official live Zeppelin document.

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I'm hopeful for a new live release to come out someday, but I'm not going to hold my breath. The problem is that so few shows were multitracked that it severely limits the options. Earls Court? Maybe. But Page would have to do quite a bit of editing to fix Robert's vocal cracks. Not to mention Page himself wasn't as consistently "on" as he had been two years earlier. LA 77? There's no evidence of multitracks for those shows, so Page would have to go to the raw soundboards and polish them. There's only so much you can do there, especially if they sound anything like the other soundboards we have from 77 (flat and very dry). That would be a lot of work and take a lot of time. Copenhagen 79? Same as LA 77. Tour Over Europe? Even the best shows have faults (see Kashmir from Zurich). A "best of" the tour could work, but I doubt Page would want to even bother considering how this tour shows him (and Bonzo) as his worst in terms of consistency. And anything from 73 and before would seem redundant given the live albums we already have. 

Bottom line: an Earls Court release is maybe the best bet we have for new live material. I would enjoy this, especially if there are multitracks for all five shows. We know that at least three of them were (23rd, 24th, and 25th). Is there any evidence whatsoever that the 17th and 18th were multitracked as well? The 18th in particular is a very good performance. Tight and consistent throughout.

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32 minutes ago, ZepHead315 said:

I'm hopeful for a new live release to come out someday, but I'm not going to hold my breath. The problem is that so few shows were multitracked that it severely limits the options. Earls Court? Maybe. But Page would have to do quite a bit of editing to fix Robert's vocal cracks. Not to mention Page himself wasn't as consistently "on" as he had been two years earlier. LA 77? There's no evidence of multitracks for those shows, so Page would have to go to the raw soundboards and polish them. There's only so much you can do there, especially if they sound anything like the other soundboards we have from 77 (flat and very dry). That would be a lot of work and take a lot of time. Copenhagen 79? Same as LA 77. Tour Over Europe? Even the best shows have faults (see Kashmir from Zurich). A "best of" the tour could work, but I doubt Page would want to even bother considering how this tour shows him (and Bonzo) as his worst in terms of consistency. And anything from 73 and before would seem redundant given the live albums we already have. 

Bottom line: an Earls Court release is maybe the best bet we have for new live material. I would enjoy this, especially if there are multitracks for all five shows. We know that at least three of them were (23rd, 24th, and 25th). Is there any evidence whatsoever that the 17th and 18th were multitracked as well? The 18th in particular is a very good performance. Tight and consistent throughout.

Personally, IMO the 23rd. was the best EC performance followed by the 18th. Both were extremely strong shows and the 23rd which we know was recorded needs very, very little editing. Robert's voice was quite strong on the 23rd. with little cracking. The best option, again IMO, would be to use the 23rd. as the starting point and splice in songs or sections of songs from the 24th & 25th if needed. Then, if one wanted video just source the 24th & 25th to synch.

If Page did that he could release what could be considered one of Zeps best performances, even if edited. Though what I don't understand is people getting all pissy when Page edits these live tunes. What is the big deal? Every band does it because every band who puts out a live performance wants to present the best they possibly can for posterity. I love live albums but the fact is no matter what is done or not done to a live performance, it is completely impossible to capture a true live performance insofar as what the audience actually heard in the seats. Even the best equipment can capture only so much of ambient sound and a live show is all about ambient sound. I have attended three concerts which were recorded and officially released by the respective bands and not a single one captured what I heard and experienced at the actual show, not for lack of trying, but because it just cannot be done. So in light of that fact I say edit away, put out the best product you can and if the naysayers don't like it they can always pull out the boot for "honesty" sake because god forbid we don't hear the guitarist flub a note or the singer's voice crack exactly like it did during the live performance. Either way, I would be happy, warts and all or polished to an impossible shine, I would be happy either way.

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4 minutes ago, IpMan said:

Personally, IMO the 23rd. was the best EC performance followed by the 18th. Both were extremely strong shows and the 23rd which we know was recorded needs very, very little editing. Robert's voice was quite strong on the 23rd. with little cracking. The best option, again IMO, would be to use the 23rd. as the starting point and splice in songs or sections of songs from the 24th & 25th if needed. Then, if one wanted video just source the 24th & 25th to synch.

If Page did that he could release what could be considered one of Zeps best performances, even if edited. Though what I don't understand is people getting all pissy when Page edits these live tunes. What is the big deal? Every band does it because every band who puts out a live performance wants to present the best they possibly can for posterity. I love live albums but the fact is no matter what is done or not done to a live performance, it is completely impossible to capture a true live performance insofar as what the audience actually heard in the seats. Even the best equipment can capture only so much of ambient sound and a live show is all about ambient sound. I have attended three concerts which were recorded and officially released by the respective bands and not a single one captured what I heard and experienced at the actual show, not for lack of trying, but because it just cannot be done. So in light of that fact I say edit away, put out the best product you can and if the naysayers don't like it they can always pull out the boot for "honesty" sake because god forbid we don't hear the guitarist flub a note or the singer's voice crack exactly like it did during the live performance. Either way, I would be happy, warts and all or polished to an impossible shine, I would be happy either way.

I think the issue isn't necessarily the fact that there's editing, but how much editing there is. Celebration Day has barely any editing at all (and given how it was a one-off performance, why should it have much editing?). How The West Was Won has more editing, but that doesn't bother me so much as the sound. Way too overloaded and "loud". The Song Remains The Same is a bit overkill, IMO. You could write a novel about all the editing that was done for that album, both the original and the rerelease (not to mention the stuff put on the Led Zeppelin DVD). Heck, The Garden Tapes pretty much already did this. Plus, IIRC there's overdubs on that album as well (granted I believe it's only with Robert's vocals, but still).

When you get to editing to that degree, it just feels "artificial". I've seen people cite The Song Remains The Same as a reason for why Zeppelin "supposedly" sucked live. They justify it by saying "look at all the editing that Page had to go through just to get an official release". If one of the members is having an off night, then just record a different night and use the respective best versions of each song to combine into one killer live album/compilation. Sure, if you have to do some editing, go ahead. But to do it in the way that Page did it for The Song Remains The Same just doesn't feel honest. When I listen to a live album, I listen to it to get an idea for what the band sounded like live. I get it that it's never going to be 100% like actually going to see them in concert, but it's better than nothing. But I just chuckle when I think of bands that do editing to that extent (or worse). Having to listen to all those hours of tape, picking a three second segment here, another five seconds there. If you have to get that detail-oriented, then the performances are either not good enough to be released, or you're too much of a perfectionist.

I'd be happy for an Earls Court release regardless, but if Jimmy edits it to the extent that he did on TSRTS, it'll somewhat dampen my enjoyment. But if it's only to the degree of HTWWW, then I'll enjoy the hell out of it. To each their own.

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I really want to see Knebworth released in full! It's a sin that they haven't released what is arguably the best gig of their career (4th of August, not the 11th).

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56 minutes ago, kayley10 said:

I really want to see Knebworth released in full! It's a sin that they haven't released what is arguably the best gig of their career (4th of August, not the 11th).

WHAT???? Is that a joke? The 4th was a mediocre performance, not bad but far from stellar. If you really want to hear the band sounding downright amazing in 79' check out both of the warm up gigs they played on July 23rd & 24th before Knebworth. Now those are two stellar shows and on par with the best gigs they did.

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Audio and Video of Iceland 1970 will be out soon.... but not yet.   Your going to have to wait and suffer like the rest of us

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1 hour ago, SymphonyX said:

Audio and Video of Iceland 1970 will be out soon.... but not yet.   Your going to have to wait and suffer like the rest of us

And you know this...how?

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There WILL be more live releases. 100%. The only question is will it be while JP has control, or decades from now when the dinosaurs have all departed. Whoever gets the keys to the kingdom will almost certainly have cause to release some live shows.

Personally, I think Pagey will release one or more live shows. There is not yet that book-end. That turning of the last page in terms of Led Zeppelin and material released.

Earls Court almost without doubt will be out there - hopefully soon! My hope is (and I don't think it is too remote a possibility) is there will also be a '77 release as well as 79/80 release. A release program like the album remasters - applied to Zeppelin's live career would WORK, but sadly is not as likely.

If there is another "early years" live release, cool, of course I'll get it and love it, but '75 onward. We need some official stuff out there!

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12 hours ago, IpMan said:

The best option, again IMO, would be to use the 23rd. as the starting point and splice in songs or sections of songs from the 24th & 25th if needed. Then, if one wanted video just source the 24th & 25th to synch.

Yes, this sounds like by far the best way to get a good Earls Court release with the minimum hassle/time/expense.

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Do we know for a fact that May 23 1975 was recorded to multi tracks? 

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When you get to editing to that degree, it just feels "artificial". I've seen people cite The Song Remains The Same as a reason for why Zeppelin "supposedly" sucked live. They justify it by saying "look at all the editing that Page had to go through just to get an official release"

Far as I'm concerned if anyone says Zeppelin sucked live their opinion can be discounted immediately. I'm hardly the most objective observer as a fan, but if anyone can listen to a decent selection of bootlegs, both sbd & audience recording, and still say they sucked live then they're a troll.

That said, I agree the editing has been a bit much, I'd even argue too much on HTWWW. It won't make me admire the band less if I hear Page flub a note, but there is that "perfectionism" again.

Earls Court would be a good bookend live release. Apart from anything else, for the guitar aficionados (who'd rather have a record than listen on YouTube), it'd show how Page's playing evolved, to my ears there is a quite a difference between 1972/3 & 1975.

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8 minutes ago, porgie66 said:

Do we know for a fact that May 23 1975 was recorded to multi tracks? 

The Garden Tapes says that 23rd was used to patch a few things on some of the DVD songs. Which seems legit. So it's reasonable to infer that it exists in multitrack. But if so, the mystery then is why so little of 23rd was used officially when it's the better show. I think the usual answer to that is there isn't any video from 23rd.

To the OP, I doubt it sadly. Jimmy's never shown any interest in more live releases. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.

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12 hours ago, IpMan said:

WHAT???? Is that a joke? The 4th was a mediocre performance, not bad but far from stellar. If you really want to hear the band sounding downright amazing in 79' check out both of the warm up gigs they played on July 23rd & 24th before Knebworth. Now those are two stellar shows and on par with the best gigs they did.

The 4th show is an incredible show with a terrible monitor mix. You just have to listen to the tracks on DVD to realize the sheer majesty of that show!

10 hours ago, SymphonyX said:

Audio and Video of Iceland 1970 will be out soon.... but not yet.   Your going to have to wait and suffer like the rest of us

What exactly do you mean?

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I remember in an interview with Kevin Shirley, who engineered the 2003 LZ DVD and transferred it all to computer, that one of the EC nights was missing the bass drum on the multi-tracks and was un-useable.

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1 hour ago, Boleskinner said:

I remember in an interview with Kevin Shirley, who engineered the 2003 LZ DVD and transferred it all to computer, that one of the EC nights was missing the bass drum on the multi-tracks and was un-useable.

With today's technology, Bonzos missing kick drum can be fixed.  

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Someone here explained a couple of years ago exactly how the missing bass drum could be sorted out. Sounded plausible to me. 

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, bluecongo said:

With today's technology, Bonzos missing kick drum can be fixed.  

Cut and paste the bass drum from another night?

Wouldn't work.

Most of the time his bass drum was syncopated to what the rest of the band were doing and his own intricate fills, and was very different each night.

He had one of the best kick techniques ever and you want to import some rote stuff via ProTools.

Edited by Boleskinner

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13 hours ago, SymphonyX said:

Audio and Video of Iceland 1970 will be out soon.... but not yet.   Your going to have to wait and suffer like the rest of us

Uhhhhh... MORE PLEASE.

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50 minutes ago, Boleskinner said:

Cut and paste the bass drum from another night?

Wouldn't work.

Most of the time his bass drum was syncopated to what the rest of the band were doing and his own intricate fills, and was very different each night.

He had one of the best kick techniques ever and you want to import some rote stuff via ProTools.

The technology now exists to where you could upload a sample of Bonham's kick drum. The the logarithm would mathematically determine from other samples where and when Bonham would have used the kick drum based on Bonham's own patterns and place it within the song. Of course there would still need to be some fine tuning and hoping for the best but it would work. I figure if necessary would be around 90+% accurate or greater, depending on how repeatable Bonham's patterns were within a song, even an improvised tune such as D&C. Plus, if the other drums were miked and only the bass drum missing, it should make the job fairly easy, after all depending on how the other drums are being used within the song there are only so many places to put the kick drum within the framework.

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2 minutes ago, IpMan said:

The technology now exists to where you could upload a sample of Bonham's kick drum. The the logarithm would mathematically determine from other samples where and when Bonham would have used the kick drum based on Bonham's own patterns and place it within the song. Of course there would still need to be some fine tuning and hoping for the best but it would work. I figure if necessary would be around 90+% accurate or greater, depending on how repeatable Bonham's patterns were within a song, even an improvised tune such as D&C. Plus, if the other drums were miked and only the bass drum missing, it should make the job fairly easy, after all depending on how the other drums are being used within the song there are only so many places to put the kick drum within the framework.

Why would we need to mathematically determine where and when it was used?  We have a decent audience recording that could be used to pinpoint exactly where and when Bonham hit the kick drum.

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1 hour ago, LedElvis75 said:

Why would we need to mathematically determine where and when it was used?  We have a decent audience recording that could be used to pinpoint exactly where and when Bonham hit the kick drum.

you realise JP would want to take charge of this personally, and it would take a while...

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How the hell could John Bonham's bass drum not be recorded during the multi-tracking of a 3hour plus concert? I could understand if it was only a song or two, but the entire concert? Thats beyond incompetent. Also, weren't there two mic's on Bonham's kick during the E.C. recordings? If not, its still hard to believe...

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24 minutes ago, blindwillie127 said:

How the hell could John Bonham's bass drum not be recorded during the multi-tracking of a 3hour plus concert? I could understand if it was only a song or two, but the entire concert? Thats beyond incompetent. Also, weren't there two mic's on Bonham's kick during the E.C. recordings? If not, its still hard to believe...

Indeed. Looks like two on the bass drum on all pics from EC. I always assumed one for house, one for the recording tracks. I don't recall seeing other drums double micd though. 

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