Content: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to Led Zeppelin Official Forum

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Tadpole in a Jar

Dazed 'n' Confused -- Who messed up?

156 posts in this topic

I've been listening to the Trainspotter version of the 02 show, and the "Dazed n' Confused" flub sounds even bigger than it did on the You Tube video. However, on two listenings, I think it's Jimmy who messed up. I think the riff is supposed to go four times and he moves on to the next section after only two, almost entirely skipping over one of Jason's showcase moments. Then you can also hear it must have pissed him off because he makes these random bashing noises on the guitar that are totally off time from the rest of the band.

What do you think? Anyone know for sure?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't listened to the flub up too closely yet, but my initial opinion was that jason didn't hear that jimmy went into the E-D-A E-G part and so jason started his big drum part late. I'll give it a closer listen soon.

I am also of the opinion that jimmy's playing after the flub up was odd and probably due to the mistake. I used to do the same thing when my old bandmates would flub up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i just listened to it again and it's really hard to say what went wrong here...but right around or just prior to the 9:00 mark (of the trainspotter recording), both jimmy and JPJ go into the transition part...but it sounds like they're not in sync. i'm not sure who makes the correction, but it sounds like they both end up in sync after starting out of sync...but jason never syncs properly with them, so he ends up going into his fill to end the transition *after* the other guys have already ended the transition and started playing the B riff.

before all this happens, jason did a fill that seemed out of place which may have caused the initial confusion. i'd like to see if anyone has other opinions on this or if anyone can explain it better (because i know my explanation sucks).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole end is a mess.

IF they had a pre-planned cue for going into the E-D-A E-G part, Jimmy missed it and started it late. This is heard through the fact that Bonham is hitting the cymboles in the correct place without the hits from Jimmy. They do however salvage this and start playing together.

But then all hell breaks loose when Bonham does this "weird" fill. Well that weird fill, which occured during the performance over the riff on the B, was, I believe, supposed to go over the E-D-A E-G part! This John Bonham did in a number of shows (HTWWW? I'm too lazy to get it from my car right now). Thus Jason thought that part went on longer than it did during the show, either by mistake or some kind of miscommunication stemming from the first time Jimmy is late coming in.

Frankly, it is hard to tell from this poor recording. No disrespect to the taper, as I can completely understand the circumstances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm gonna go with Jason screwing it up.

He went all fill-tastic to cover up the part of the transition riff where he should have stopped cold, and that fill confused Jimmy who thought 'shit, I'm about to go to the main riff and he thinks were still on the transistion! i guess i'll play it longer'.

Nice recovery by Pagey though, he throws in some sinisterass harmonics in the confusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was probably a communication breakdown, lol. Jason has said he didn't know exactly how some numbers would go because of all of the improvisation the band does. If you listen to a concert in the 70s there would be a lot of similar mistakes though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It was probably a communication breakdown, lol. Jason has said he didn't know exactly how some numbers would go because of all of the improvisation the band does. If you listen to a concert in the 70s there would be a lot of similar mistakes though.

to think of it as anyone's mistake is a mistake, it's Zeppelin live, it's organic, anything can happen. It's what all great bands do, fix it before anyone notices.

you guys are harping on something that happened within 10 or 15 seconds. I'm sure the whole thing was a split second of "hun?" and poof, they went with it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
to think of it as anyone's mistake is a mistake, it's Zeppelin live, it's organic, anything can happen. It's what all great bands do, fix it before anyone notices.

you guys are harping on something that happened within 10 or 15 seconds. I'm sure the whole thing was a split second of "hun?" and poof, they went with it

hmm..

- The part in question is actually one of the more straightforward parts of Dazed, live or in the studio. This wasnt exactly circa 75 spanish riff >sanfrancisco >bow solo.

- the split second was more like 20 sec. of 'wtf'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check out some of your '73 boots and see how many times they flubbed transition passages like they did during Dazed at O2. Certainly wasn't the first time they had gotten outta sync.

It's flubs like this (and in several other songs - for instance has anyone mentioned Plant not quite hitting the vocal note on GTBT when the chord changes after the first chorus) that I don't think there is a snowballs chance this will be released officially....so get all the boots you can.

And what is still amazing about all of it is in spite of flubs like in Dazed, it was still an absolutely incredible performance far beyond what I actually expected.

Who cares about the flubs...IMO they still proved they are the best rock band of all time, hands down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can probably go through a classic performance like Knebworth 8-4-79, Blueberry Hill 9-4-70, RAH 1-9-70 and a lot of others that are considered the top bootlegs ever and find a ton of little mistakes. It's all apart of the improvisational nature of Led Zepp and it's what made them the best band ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing we're talking about is intended to "take away" from the great performance they gave us. It is however interesting in finding out what happend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nothing we're talking about is intended to "take away" from the great performance they gave us. It is however interesting in finding out what happend.

No shit.

We're just talking about one interesting fuckup here.

Theres no need for the Zep Propaganda Corps to mobilize into 'damage control mode'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's flubs like this (and in several other songs - for instance has anyone mentioned Plant not quite hitting the vocal note on GTBT when the chord changes after the first chorus) that I don't think there is a snowballs chance this will be released officially....so get all the boots you can.

Ever heard of pitch shift?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coming from a drumming standpoint, it sounded to me that Page went to the transition 4 bars early. So when Bonham played the fill (a very famous drum lick that John Bonham always played the same) he was left out there on an island while Page had already started the next section.

This one falls on Page.

But I agree with the others who mentioned that most Zep shows had near train wrecks like this. It's what happens when a band wings it on stage, but the reward for it working is usually worth the risk.

tc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing on that might be on Page is that he segued into the pre-transition riff very smoothly and blindsided Jason who probably wasn't paying attention. In any event, based on what Page was playing, he should have known that he missed his opportunity for the fill and just continued with the full stop.

Listening to it again, Jason had 2 outs: if did the full stop a second after he started the fill (timed with Pages first go through the transition riff), or just didnt do the full stop and polyrhythmed his way out of the confusion.

But instead he did the whole fill/full stop and threw everyone off.

You ruined the reunion, Jason! Meg White is laughing at you! Dave Grohl is shaking his head in disgust! Sky is falling! Loud noises!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
has anyone mentioned Plant not quite hitting the vocal note on GTBT when the chord changes after the first chorus

If they REALLY want to they can pitch correct his voice from the soundboard source. They are going to have to work over the first couple songs because of the bad mix and the feedback anyway. The sound of a live performance on DVD always far exceeds the audience experience so there is no need to be absolutely purist about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The worst screwup I've ever heard is a 1980 boot. Don't know which show but they completely get out of sync on Kashmir. I can't remember whether they stop the song and start over again or not but they may have. That's not a good song to mess up on. D&C is pretty easy to smooth over since it's so improvisational.

The second worst screwup I've heard is on a 1977 boot. I think Jimmy breaks a string or something because he's not playing through a big chunk of a song. It's one of the harder numbers like Heartbreaker, Rock n Roll, or Black Dog.

I've heard about a show where because Jimmy is out of commission, JPJ tries to immitate Jimmy's bow solo during How Many More Times. I'd love to get my hands on that one!

Really, the fact that TSRTS was culled from (3?) different shows at MSG is indicative of how it should be done if you intend to record for a live album. You need an insurance policy. Doing just a one-off means any little mistake is magnified. The Unledded performance for MTV had similar issues. Jimmy flubbed in a few places where he may have nailed it in rehearsals but he only had one shot for the cameras.

I'm just happy they got through Stairway largely unscathed. I don't find Robert's voice straining on "there's a lady" or Jimmy overbending a little in the start of the solo to be that big of a deal.

Edited by mos6507

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The worst screwup I've ever heard is a 1980 boot. Don't know which show but they completely get out of sync on Kashmir. I can't remember whether they stop the song and start over again or not but they may have. That's not a good song to mess up on. D&C is pretty easy to smooth over since it's so improvisational.

It's Zurich, 29-6-80.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If they REALLY want to they can pitch correct his voice from the soundboard source. They are going to have to work over the first couple songs because of the bad mix and the feedback anyway.

Most of those feedback issues occur when Plant isn't singing anyway, so cutting them out would be pretty simple. But any new release will get the full treatment, no doubt about that and I am sure it will be amazing. Compare Knebworth boots to the DVD release, for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just listening D&C just to hear what you are talking about. Lol I would not even notice they screwed because they just blow away my mind at these parts of the song:))). The whole gig as far as I can tell from those pure recordings over the internet was just brilliant and so I wondered what a shit happened...

It is hard to tell who screwed going to E-D-A E-G part. It is clear that Jason thought it is sooner as for his cymbals go really alone without support of a guitar at first. Anyway that is no problem since it fits in the song anyway... After a while, Page goes for it himself and Jason misses that:). But he gets it immediatelly and so they do E-D-A E-G part with just a little mistake at the beggining, again, no problem. They are clearly well sync at the end... But than the fill...

Jason gave absolutely clear indication of that the fill is going to follow. Listen to the typical attack on a tom drum (or what do you call that one in english... I aint no drummer nor is english my mother language). ONE TWO THREE FOUR, FILL.... and nothing, Jimmy was just in the middle of his best, but still he should have listened to what his drummer is doing:). It does not matter if it was the second or fourth or whatever repetition of whatever. If drummer is doing such a fill you have to stop and follow him. That is why I think this was Jimmys fault. Maybe he was a bit upset that Jason pushed him to end his solo a bit sooner than he wanted to (with the cymbals before E-D-A E-G part). :).

However, they managed to get out of the problem smoothly. Most of bands would just fuck it up, but not Led Zeppelin. Bonham immediatelly made it flowing and Page caught so everything was just fine. This little "out of sync" was nothing but normal. Without those little issues, LIVE music would be damned lose...!!! I like the way they handled it!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

could anyone tell me where to get hold of the Trainspotter version please, i was at the concert and cant find a bootleg anywhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
could anyone tell me where to get hold of the Trainspotter version please, i was at the concert and cant find a bootleg anywhere.

You have to know how to use bittorrent software. If you know how to do that, you can find the recording at sites that host torrents. If you don't torrent, it isn't hard, but you'll have to google it to get the general idea, and you'll have to download a new program to your computer.

The best torrent site for bootlegs is dimeadozen, but they require you to register, and sometimes you can't because they have no room for new members. By now, you may be able to find the trainspotter recording on mininova.org, which does not require registration.

Hope that's a start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jimmy threw a bad cue and Jason covered. This is the part where Plant usually doubles with the guitar, but he wasn't doing it this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you know they have two shows done rehersal show and live show, nothing stopping them using rehersal mix to fix this if they put it out on cd/dvd, anyways I was there and a few times during the gig things got a bit muddle because of the mix, including DC , but what the f--- it was a fantastic night

and you know its a long time since I'v seen a band work so hard on stage for each other,they were really into it, I think they did their best guys. woops and gals. :mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0