Slate Chocolate Marble
Slate Chocolate Marble

Led Zeppelin Official Forum

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Tadpole in a Jar

Dazed 'n' Confused -- Who messed up?

156 posts in this topic

I actually like what Jimmy did to catch back up with the rest of the band. He just hit an open E and let it ring out until the next bar came around. It sounded pretty heavy and dark -- so it fit the vibe of the song.

I remember reading a Bonzo quote where he mentions that if they make mistakes, it showed that they were trying something new at least. So it was worth it to them to flub sometimes because the reward of improvising and having it work was so magical.

tc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its both Page and Jason's fault.

Here's exactly what happend:

Page missed his first E,D,A,E,G. JPJ didnt miss it. Page should have played it but for some reason he just let the low E string just ring out for a bar. By the next bar however, Page played the progression. This is where the screw up began ------ if you know Dazed and Confused, you know that the E,D,A,E,G chord progression gets played 3 times before taking it back into the riff with the B chord and eventually the main dazed riff. You also know on the 3rd progession orf E,D,A,E,G Bonham does a really cool drum fill as long in duration as the bar to segue back into the riff.

WELL, Page and Jones acted as if Jimmy did not miss the first E,D,A,E,G fill and instead played as if he did play the first of 3. Jason however, started counting the chords when Page actually began playing the E,D,A,E,G. The result was that Page and JPJ were one bar ahead of Jason and as you can hear, Jason is doing the cool drum fill while Page and JPJ are already past that part and on to the B chord riff.

If Jason had stuck to counting off of JPJ instead of Page he would have been fine and it would have come off perfect -- the only bad thing would have been Page missing the first E,D,A,E,G riff. However, that was not the case and Jason was one step behind Jimmy and JPJ.

So again --- its Jimmy's fault for missing the first E,D,A,E,G riff ; but its Jason's fault too for not being on the same Page and following JPJ in stead of lead guitar. I hate to but more blame on one than the other, but I think its a little more Jason's fault than Jimmy's because in a song like Dazed, the drummer should always always always be playing off the bass and let the lead guitar go off and do his own thing. If you look at all the old footage of Dazed, its obvious that most of the time throughout the solo, John Bonham is follwoing JPJ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Theres no need for the Zep Propaganda Corps to mobilize into 'damage control mode'.

That's an interesting way to describe those who just thought this sounded like classic improvisatory Zeppelin. Every time I mention how much I love this band, I'll have to remember I'm spreading propaganda. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

most bands would have fallen apart after a miscue like that but they did recover quite well. The miscue was 100% nail on the head led zeppelin --- which sounds wierd but it was actually cool in a strange way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's an interesting way to describe those who just thought this sounded like classic improvisatory Zeppelin. Every time I mention how much I love this band, I'll have to remember I'm spreading propaganda. :D

Thats because people are confusing improvisation with fuckups.

Jamming is improvisation. 4 guys playing 4 different things is a fuckup.

Yea I know this is a zepboard and their shit smells like freshly baked cupcakes and such, but wtf, a fuckup is a fuckup.

fuck.... :yay:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't hear this version yet, but if it was a pre-prepared part, i'm almost certain it was Jason,

he was probably the most nervous and this is one of the most complex live Jimmy Page songs.

But fuck up's are part of the improvisation and it's important that they somehow saved it and it happend in zep days aswell, because they were adding new parts, but they all had fantastic intuitions so there weren't many fuck up's.

i'm almost certain this part was pre prepared, so jason probably messed up a bit and also i would say

it's interesting how the whole band was restraing at times and teasing the audience on purpose!!

as if asking them: well can we still do it or no???

Edited by Samo-Kodela

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like the 'fuck up police' are happy cos they found one. hooray!!!!!!!!

Well done guys I'm sure it will keep you happy for a while.

You must be proud to be able to disect the song to such a degree.

I dont give a toss about the fuck up personally, it wouldn't be Led Zeppelin without one :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guess it's back to Shepperton!! :hysterical:

Will Jonesy wear the same shirt this time and prevent another planetary misalignment????

In all seriousness, I agree with both factions here in some ways. I don't see the harm in analyzing how they were momentarily derailed. Shit happens. It's no insult to the band however to do so. There are numerous miscommunications on many other shows. That's the price of being tight but loose. It's just that some could sense it as an attack when assigning blame to whoever "fucked up", but I don't think that was anyone's intent. No one said "fucking so-and-so ruined it". There hasn't been any malice toward Jason or Jimmy in any of the posts I've read here, just analysis by trainspotters (among which I count myself on many occasions). :lol:

Carry on. :beer:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guess it's back to Shepperton!! :hysterical:

Will Jonesy wear the same shirt this time and prevent another planetary misalignment????

In all seriousness, I agree with both factions here in some ways. I don't see the harm in analyzing how they were momentarily derailed. Shit happens. It's no insult to the band however to do so. There are numerous miscommunications on many other shows. That's the price of being tight but loose. It's just that some could sense it as an attack when assigning blame to whoever "fucked up", but I don't think that was anyone's intent. No one said "fucking so-and-so ruined it". There hasn't been any malice toward Jason or Jimmy in any of the posts I've read here, just analysis by trainspotters (among which I count myself on many occasions). :lol:

Carry on. :beer:

Will Jimmy keep his hair length the same? B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it would be a Zep concert without a fuckup.

I've got a boot called "For Badgeholders Only," and they really fuck up Kashmir good. Half the band goes one way and half the band goes the other. I've never really listened to it closely enough to figure out who did what, but there is about 20 seconds of uncomfortable fumbling around.

Also, I was listening to the BBC recordings yesterday, and Plant jumps in with the chorus all over Jimmy's solo in "What Is And What ..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ITS ROCK N ROLL IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE PERFECT, NOR SHOULD IT BE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was there watching.....I watched Jimmy grin when Robert came in on vocals .....a little early on Jimmy's usual intro.

I've been listening to the Trainspotter version of the 02 show, and the "Dazed n' Confused" flub sounds even bigger than it did on the You Tube video. However, on two listenings, I think it's Jimmy who messed up. I think the riff is supposed to go four times and he moves on to the next section after only two, almost entirely skipping over one of Jason's showcase moments. Then you can also hear it must have pissed him off because he makes these random bashing noises on the guitar that are totally off time from the rest of the band.

What do you think? Anyone know for sure?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ITS ROCK N ROLL IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE PERFECT, NOR SHOULD IT BE

.....exactly........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have loved it whatever they did.....on the way to it I was thinking....I've aged just like they have....I'm not expecting perfection, speed, or whatever else.....just them enjoy playing.....and us enjoy watching and listening......they were great....and especially Jason...I hope he got the satisfaction he deserves.

Take Care,

JRich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It actually took a second or third listeing/viewing before I even noticed this. I just thought it was interesting, and wondered where it started. It seems to have evolved out of nowhere. I think Jimmy just hit a ringing E instead of doing the full E D A E G thing, and Jason didn't get that he was moving to that part until he was one "bar" too late, and then he was one bar behind Page the rest of the time. He caught it well, though. That lull where he freezes and just hits the cymbal while staring at Page reminds me of so many moments with my old band, so it shows me even the giants stumble!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It actually took a second or third listeing/viewing before I even noticed this.

Funny, I saw (heard) it coming on my first listen to it. I was waiting for that thunderous drum fill during the riff section and someone was already there and Jason wasn't...or he was and they weren't.....and I knew it wasn't gonna be pretty......but who really cares.

They came, they saw, they conquered.

Sincerely,

The Led Zep Propaganda Patrol

Edited by StringBender

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you guys think Zep's trainwrecks or minor derailings are funny...

You ought to hear something as complicated as King Crimson's derailings !!! Holy shit !!

Magnify LZ's miscues by 100 and you might approach those of Fripp and Co. ! How rare they may be...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
you guys think Zep's trainwrecks or minor derailings are funny...

You ought to hear something as complicated as King Crimson's derailings !!! Holy shit !!

Magnify LZ's miscues by 100 and you might approach those of Fripp and Co. ! How rare they may be...

That's a sign of talented musicians joel.....can you gets your butt out of a jam when need be!

You ever notice Cream's live version of Crossroads how Clapton is playing a full bar ahead or perhaps the boys were playing a full bar behind? And that has been called one of the greatest guitar solos ever recorded.

Or I Can't Quit You....from the first LP they are one or two bars off during the guitar solo....and I think I read Jimmy still denies it!

But my ears don't lie.....my mouth may have on occasion....but not my ears.....

Edited by StringBender

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't mind them at all !!! I feel they are completely part of the personality of the band...whatever band it may be....

Full bar ? Good....I'll have an IPA please, for good measure....:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been following this thread and listening to the audience tape of this show (at least one of them, anyway) and I don't hear what all of you are yappin about. I just don't really hear the "mistake" in D&C. And I think some of you are just being anal for pointing it out.

We don't need more anality when it comes to Zeppelin. We already have Page who is as anal as it comes when releasing any zep material.

The only issues for this performance was the sound in general; bursts of feedback permeating Good Times/Bad Times and others which can easily be muted out if this ever gets released commercially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've been following this thread and listening to the audience tape of this show (at least one of them, anyway) and I don't hear what all of you are yappin about. I just don't really hear the "mistake" in D&C. And I think some of you are just being anal for pointing it out.

We don't need more anality when it comes to Zeppelin. We already have Page who is as anal as it comes when releasing any zep material.

The only issues for this performance was the sound in general; bursts of feedback permeating Good Times/Bad Times and others which can easily be muted out if this ever gets released commercially.

'Anality' - never heard that one before!

Sorry, bluesunday, this discussion may not be to your tastes (so why no go read something else?) but whether you like it or not there IS a 'mistake' in D&C.

The thing is though, what comes through most of all to me is not the 'anality' of my fellow boardmembers but the fact that everyone seems to agree that it really doesn't matter. That it's part of what makes a great live band great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
its both Page and Jason's fault.

Here's exactly what happend:

Page missed his first E,D,A,E,G. JPJ didnt miss it. Page should have played it but for some reason he just let the low E string just ring out for a bar. By the next bar however, Page played the progression. This is where the screw up began ------ if you know Dazed and Confused, you know that the E,D,A,E,G chord progression gets played 3 times before taking it back into the riff with the B chord and eventually the main dazed riff. You also know on the 3rd progession orf E,D,A,E,G Bonham does a really cool drum fill as long in duration as the bar to segue back into the riff.

WELL, Page and Jones acted as if Jimmy did not miss the first E,D,A,E,G fill and instead played as if he did play the first of 3. Jason however, started counting the chords when Page actually began playing the E,D,A,E,G. The result was that Page and JPJ were one bar ahead of Jason and as you can hear, Jason is doing the cool drum fill while Page and JPJ are already past that part and on to the B chord riff.

If Jason had stuck to counting off of JPJ instead of Page he would have been fine and it would have come off perfect -- the only bad thing would have been Page missing the first E,D,A,E,G riff. However, that was not the case and Jason was one step behind Jimmy and JPJ.

So again --- its Jimmy's fault for missing the first E,D,A,E,G riff ; but its Jason's fault too for not being on the same Page and following JPJ in stead of lead guitar. I hate to but more blame on one than the other, but I think its a little more Jason's fault than Jimmy's because in a song like Dazed, the drummer should always always always be playing off the bass and let the lead guitar go off and do his own thing. If you look at all the old footage of Dazed, its obvious that most of the time throughout the solo, John Bonham is follwoing JPJ.

^

This is a good account of what happened. I have a 'but' however. Zeppelin live played tight but loose. There was room for improvs, but there are also these signature music bits that function as a guide or cue to segue into the next part of a song or solo. There a tons of examples of that like in the STH solo, D&C etc. Now even if Jason miscounted, Page and Jones should have known the overhead fill comes first and then they segue into the next part. This overhead fill is a biggie in the Bonham book. So I think Page and Jones should have waited for the fill. But hey, these things happen and the important thing is: Jason can play that fill!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0