ro_a Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Page does not make it look easy in 77 (79 or 80 for that matter). Look how thin he is! They call that the Winehouse look these days. At this point, when he goes in for the bent notes he seems to throw his entire body under under the guitar string, much like Arnold Schwarzenegger lifted bar bells. Weak! And is he listening? No. He is on autopilot, and the majority of his musical decisions were made before he set foot on stage. One of my favorite things about Zep is the in the moment chemistry, and the idea that the band as musical vehicle could go anywhere on a given night. I give WWL medly 69-72 as my example. In 1977, I find Page's style to be "my way or the highway", and everyone has to follow. I have 4 or so of the recommended shows from this tour, and they are enjoyable. There are exceptions to the rule. Page returns to in the moment decision making in 1998, where on a good night he plays his best since 73-75. I believe the 98 P/P tour will be an eventual bootleg favorite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexter Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I agree with most of what has been posted thus far - I think that the soundboards we are all familiar with amplify the sloppiness, draw unnecessary attention to the mistakes (I can't think of an instrumental trio that would sound fantastic with such a brittle unforgiving mix) I think that while Page's deterioration is very sad in many ways, it is slightly more complicated than a cautionary tale about excess. Zeppelin embodied excess and ego to a large extent and no one more than Page, artistically and otherwise, so I see this as a trade-off. While drugs robbed him of his physical gifts in performance, they played a very large role in the albums that we all love. To keep the band sounding vital for over a decade is a hell of a lot of pressure and whenever drugs play an integral role in creativity (or otherwise) it usually follows that one needs to take an increasingly large dose to reach the same creative plateau. A less excessive individual would not have added the some two dozen guitar overdubs on Achilles in what I assume was partially the product of an all night substance binge. Page is obviously a complicated figure and don't think we will ever know exactly what compelled him towards self destruction, but I think that we are all the richer for the sacrifices he made of his time, his body, his sanity, etc.. When Page "got clean" what did we get? Outrider. We should consider ourselves lucky that they toured at all during that time seeing as how it was largely what was destroying Page. When the Beatles starting getting into drugs, they selfishly retreated into into their own navel-gazing and stopped performing all together, Zeppelin hopped on a their Jet, filled another Jet full of pharmaceuticals, and barnstormed the f%^ing country!. Rock and roll indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I agree with most of what has been posted thus far - I think that the soundboards we are all familiar with amplify the sloppiness, draw unnecessary attention to the mistakes (I can't think of an instrumental trio that would sound fantastic with such a brittle unforgiving mix) I think that while Page's deterioration is very sad in many ways, it is slightly more complicated than a cautionary tale about excess. Zeppelin embodied excess and ego to a large extent and no one more than Page, artistically and otherwise, so I see this as a trade-off. While drugs robbed him of his physical gifts in performance, they played a very large role in the albums that we all love. To keep the band sounding vital for over a decade is a hell of a lot of pressure and whenever drugs play an integral role in creativity (or otherwise) it usually follows that one needs to take an increasingly large dose to reach the same creative plateau. A less excessive individual would not have added the some two dozen guitar overdubs on Achilles in what I assume was partially the product of an all night substance binge. Page is obviously a complicated figure and don't think we will ever know exactly what compelled him towards self destruction, but I think that we are all the richer for the sacrifices he made of his time, his body, his sanity, etc.. When Page "got clean" what did we get? Outrider. We should consider ourselves lucky that they toured at all during that time seeing as how it was largely what was destroying Page. When the Beatles starting getting into drugs, they selfishly retreated into into their own navel-gazing and stopped performing all together, Zeppelin hopped on a their Jet, filled another Jet full of pharmaceuticals, and barnstormed the f%^ing country!. Rock and roll indeed! While I agree with you about soundboards etc I have to disagree about Page's excesses being any positive contributor to the music. I think he was more than capable of coming up with Achilles.. and a lot more.. without being.. RECKED..so to speak. The tour satisfied the masses and their ego's at the time. I would have traded that for a little more common sense and a whole lot more music in the long term Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelmon Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 While I agree with you about soundboards etc I have to disagree about Page's excesses being any positive contributor to the music. I think he was more than capable of coming up with Achilles.. and a lot more.. without being.. RECKED..so to speak. The tour satisfied the masses and their ego's at the time. I would have traded that for a little more common sense and a whole lot more music in the long term The point about the drug taking though...is...is that it was part of the equation in Jimmy's creativity....Your wish of less...is the speculation/assumption...and/or your personal desire. And as far as soundboards revealing more rough spots...of course !! Do we forget about all the soundboards where he was for the most part, spot on ? They're just as revealing...and you can HEAR the spot-on-ness too !!! It goes both ways...you can't discount the 'shoddy' playing just because it's revealed more on soundboards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Yeah, It's a personal opinion. There was a feeling in those day's that it was all pretty cool to be excessive...as there still is... to much the same effect. IMO that's not cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelmon Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Yeah, It's a personal opinion. There was a feeling in those day's that it was all pretty cool to be excessive...as there still is... to much the same effect. IMO that's not cool The excessiveness did go too far in performances for sure..... but the controlled usage aided in the creative juices...not all indulgence is overboard. Understanding is key...not the exaggeration of all things as though excessiveness is inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 The excessiveness did go too far in performances for sure..... but the controlled usage aided in the creative juices...not all indulgence is overboard. Understanding is key...not the exaggeration of all things as though excessiveness is inevitable. No...not inevitable... and believe me... I understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rover Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I saw the "Hammer of the Gods" show three times in 1977. The first show, was the rescheduled start date of the tour, of April 1, 1997 in Dallas. (The Tour was to have opened in Ft. Worth a month earlier.) The first show was a little shaky... due to the fact that Jimmy hadn't picked up a guitar since the postponement, due to Robert's throat, and something that he picked up in New Orleans.... But, then a month and half later, I got to see Led Zeppelin in Houston, and, in Ft. Worth. Those shows were dazzling ! Hearing Jimmy work his way through "Ten Years Gone" in Houston was other-wordly ! TSRTS was blistering from the 3rd row ! Then, there was the Ft. Worth show, the following night, on May 22nd. "Kashmir", that night took me out of my body !! Or so it seems!! I am happy to say that I, saw Zeppelin perform one of their best concerts 1977, at the same concert hall where I first saw them perform 7 years earlier. They came in with Bang, and they went out with a Bang!! I have never been big on collecting boots of the shows. I guess my live experiences fill up so much, in my soul, that there is no void that I'm trying to fill with boots. But, I do enjoy hearing Zeppelin rock out live, like anyone else. Many folks who critique Zeppelin's live shows have only seen them once or twice, or not at all. I understand where they are coming from. But, I have a different lens of experience to look at it all through. I don't doubt there were sloppy performances on the '77 tour. I just happened to have seen them that year, on one average night, and two very good nights! That is, and will Always be... My perspective, no matter how many millions of times some other generalization is advanced. My personal concert favorites are 1970, 1975, & 1977... and I'm sticking to my story!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom kid Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I did not see Zeppelin live (I'm only 17), but I can say that the '77 tour is my favourite Zeppelin tour. I have many boots from this tour and I enjoy all of them, theres just something about '77. The mammoth versions of No Quarter are awesome, the best versions of No Quarter played without a doubt. The set list is also great, a good solid 3 to 3 and a half hours with an acoustic set to boot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyd63 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Page had his Marshalls changed to 200 watt output and changed from stock EL-34 tubes to 6550 types of the British equivilent.This changed his tone from huge and warm,to thin and piercing and LOUD!!!.This change had a lot to do with Page losing that great menacing tone he had in the early days.Marshalls are funky amps.A change like rebiasing to accomodate different tube types has an enormous impact on tone.Oh...and he was stoned on Quaaludes and smack through the tour.I saw them at Madison Square on June 7th,1977.The band came out 90 minutes late and it was noise,just noise for 3 hours.All I could think was,What happened to this great player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rover Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Page had his Marshalls changed to 200 watt output and changed from stock EL-34 tubes to 6550 types of the British equivilent.This changed his tone from huge and warm,to thin and piercing and LOUD!!!.This change had a lot to do with Page losing that great menacing tone he had in the early days.Marshalls are funky amps.A change like rebiasing to accomodate different tube types has an enormous impact on tone.Oh...and he was stoned on Quaaludes and smack through the tour.I saw them at Madison Square on June 7th,1977.The band came out 90 minutes late and it was noise,just noise for 3 hours.All I could think was,What happened to this great player? Maybe you were the one that was on Quaaludes....... You weren't there at every show.... So how the F do you know what was constant 'through the tour'? ? ? I wonder if anyone that was at that same NYC show, has a different report on the music ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattmc1973 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 You weren't there at every show.... So how the F do you know what was constant 'through the tour'? ? ? Well, when someone is hooked on smack, it's not like they do it some days, and other days not. I think it's pretty safe to say he was smacked out every day. And judging by most of the boots, I think that holds true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyd63 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Maybe you were the one that was on Quaaludes....... You weren't there at every show.... So how the F do you know what was constant 'through the tour'? ? ? I wonder if anyone that was at that same NYC show, has a different report on the music ?? Hey asshole,lighten up!! Every report documents that Page was strung out big time from Presence on through the ARMS tour,so it's a pretty safe bet that he wasn't up to par in "77. Dis you ever see them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelmon Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 ^ spread the love brutha !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killing Floor Blues Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Maybe you were the one that was on Quaaludes....... You weren't there at every show.... So how the F do you know what was constant 'through the tour'? ? ? I wonder if anyone that was at that same NYC show, has a different report on the music ?? I think it's reasonable to assume that a heroin addict would be strung out most days. I doubt Jimmy's heroin problem was a 2, 3 day a week habit. It was easily accessable for him and money was obviously no issue. Some shows might have featured him worse than others, but I'd be surprised it wasn't involved to some degree in every 77 show. It's not a knock on Page, just that addiction is a powerful thing, especially heroin. But, then again, I am assuming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooney1975 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Dis you ever see them? Scroll up a bit on this page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achilleslaststand76 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 The excessiveness did go too far in performances for sure..... but the controlled usage aided in the creative juices...not all indulgence is overboard. Understanding is key...not the exaggeration of all things as though excessiveness is inevitable. Here is my ten cents worth. I never saw Zeppelin live as I live in Australia and they did not tour here after 71. I bought bootlegs instead. In 1978 I bought 'Badgeholders' stuck it on my record player, put it on full bore and it blew my brains out. THe power and raw energy knocked me off my feet. Yes they sounded different but I have never heard anything like it since and doubt I ever will. So 77 is fine by me. Zeppelin was always, for me, an emotional roller coaster. That night in 78 when I heard Badgeholder for the first time was the greatest joy ride of all time. Now my children love them my wife loves them and we all love them. THe kids do not point to certain records or sound vagaries - they just love the whole package because they did not have the same experience as me. THats the true experience of Zeppelin - forget whether it was 68 or 79 - just sick back and let it get you where it matters! Led Zeppelin were a band of four freaks, tight but loose, and they hit people like me where no other band coudl possibly ever reach. I truly fucking love Led Zeppelin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levee Posted January 24, 2008 Author Share Posted January 24, 2008 Here is my ten cents worth. I never saw Zeppelin live as I live in Australia and they did not tour here after 71. I bought bootlegs instead. In 1978 I bought 'Badgeholders' stuck it on my record player, put it on full bore and it blew my brains out. THe power and raw energy knocked me off my feet. Yes they sounded different but I have never heard anything like it since and doubt I ever will. So 77 is fine by me. Zeppelin was always, for me, an emotional roller coaster. That night in 78 when I heard Badgeholder for the first time was the greatest joy ride of all time. Now my children love them my wife loves them and we all love them. THe kids do not point to certain records or sound vagaries - they just love the whole package because they did not have the same experience as me. THats the true experience of Zeppelin - forget whether it was 68 or 79 - just sick back and let it get you where it matters! Led Zeppelin were a band of four freaks, tight but loose, and they hit people like me where no other band coudl possibly ever reach. I truly fucking love Led Zeppelin! That's a great post. Too bad the "Doctors" here on the board don't acknowledge the 77 tour as anything but a disaster because of Jimmy's condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achilleslaststand76 Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 That's a great post. Too bad the "Doctors" here on the board don't acknowledge the 77 tour as anything but a disaster because of Jimmy's condition. Thanks Levee - I have been reading here for some time and felt it had to be said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Thanks Levee - I have been reading here for some time and felt it had to be said. Play for me and play for free....and play a whole lot more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levee Posted January 24, 2008 Author Share Posted January 24, 2008 I don't rate that post so high... So were grading posts now? You got a bunch of lame ones out there sparky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJD Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Page's TONE was not suffering at any time folks. He changed nothing once he started using primarily his #1 and #2 Les Paul, a few Marhall 1959 plexis, a wah and some phaser. Its all the same exact stuff at the same settings. If your hearing any tonal differences its because of the obvious two things: 1. Page's shoddy playing on off nights 2. The overall soundboard mix for different veunes/atmospheres, etc Think about it. Its no coincidence that Page's tone magically sounds better on nights when he was "on" ya know? Page had his Marshalls changed to 200 watt output and changed from stock EL-34 tubes to 6550 types of the British equivilent.This changed his tone from huge and warm,to thin and piercing and LOUD!!!.This change had a lot to do with Page losing that great menacing tone he had in the early days.Marshalls are funky amps.A change like rebiasing to accomodate different tube types has an enormous impact on tone. Actually, his live rig did change. He was using primarily two 100w Hiwatts from Summer of 69 to December 1971. These were custom made and nowhere near stock. From what I've read it what some time after this he had the Marshall's modified to run KT-88 output tubes. There's one well known interview where he says he has his Marshall's modified in New York to put out 200 watts, this doesn't necessarily mean he changed the transformers, in fact that is rather unlikely given that their wasn't an after market for that type of thing at the time and the only transformers that would actually put that out would be the transformers from a Marshall Major, which wouldn't fit properly on a Superlead chassis. The consensus on all the amp building sites is that he simply had the amps re-adjusted to accommodate KT-88's which would cause a large increase in output (read: blown speakers) and give him the headroom he liked so he could change tones with his volume knob. I think around 75 he switched to the lightest strings Ernie Ball made which definitely had an impact on his tone as well. Sorry for going so far OT. As for '77? I'm listening to LTTE right now and I love it. I love that whole era, 75 on for me personally is the real hammer of the gods stuff, the mystery. If I could catch any show it might be LTTE or Earl's Court. I got Heavy Metal Kids a few weeks back and it is stunning! I have no idea why the official release has the Kashmir from Knebworth and not that show. Bonham is amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rover Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I think it's reasonable to assume that a heroin addict would be strung out most days. I doubt Jimmy's heroin problem was a 2, 3 day a week habit. It was easily accessable for him and money was obviously no issue. Some shows might have featured him worse than others, but I'd be surprised it wasn't involved to some degree in every 77 show. It's not a knock on Page, just that addiction is a powerful thing, especially heroin. But, then again, I am assuming... Well, I am not going to pretend to be knowledgeable about Heroin addiction.... I doubt that I will ever know personally.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJD Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Well, I am not going to pretend to be knowledgeable about Heroin addiction.... I doubt that I will ever know personally.. Heroin isn't a casual use a little now and again drug. It may start that way but it doesn't take long to get sucked in. Apparently Page was also speedballing (shooting a mix of Heroin and Cocaine) which is incredibly dangerous but would explain a lot of things about his appearance, performance and a lot of the stories around. Those guys were huge coke users iby the early 70's and a lot of times people get into opiates as a way to come down from other highs It becomes coke to get up and H to get down. A very dangerous cycle. Quaaludes and barbiturates were also really, really common back then. For these guys the sky was the limit and money was no object so why not? Bill Grahm's auto biography has a great section on Zeppelin and how the day before the Oakland disaster Richard Cole demanded a $25,000 advance on the next days show, which was very unusual at that time. When he got to the bands hotel there was a well know drug dealer in a cowboy hat waiting to get paid. I'd still kill to have had the chance to see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pb Derigable Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 This is Jimmy's world, and were all assholes paying the rent. yeah i try not to think about the 77 tour. I think it was there best set list, but there were bad shows, and some of their best too. I think the U.S. tour in 77' should've been better. Jimmy was probably in his own world, Robert had to be talked into going. (not to mention his son). But i also do think tone does have to do with it. Jimmy does sound different, but he wasn't the only ones. Jones started to use the Alembic, played more keyboards, and bonzo had a different drum set. 77 shouldv'e been their best. but it was thier worse. Im not saying it was bad, but it did seem to be a clusterfuck. Thats what i see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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