Allegations of Plagiarism

[Evster2012]

Look, here's my point. Led Zeppelin didn't get rich on other people's music. Led Zeppelin got rich for being Led Zeppelin. The audiences and the record buyers didn't open their wallets for revamped blues songs. It was the Zeppelin dynamic I paid to hear. The excitement of their performance. Because of Zeppelin, I purchased those old blues albums. Because of Zeppelin, I put money in the pockets of artists I'd never otherwise have paid attention to.

Simply put, the band agreed on a handful of songs they could use simply to have something to play. They needed something to play so they could tour. Cause that's all they did in 1969. Zeppelin II was written on the road, and mainly out of things that evolved onstage. Robert resorted to what he was familiar with in those jams. The blues he loved.

But let's face it, once they got to Bron-Y-Aur, and had some time to really get down to it, it was all them.

[guitarmy]

Evster2012 <-------------------------------------- I'm with him

[LedZep1969]

The common "stolen" songs:

Babe I'm Gonna Leave You-Credit was given and parts were origional.

Dazed and Confused-95% origional only similarities are droning main riff and title.

Black Mountainside-Traditional folk song that was turned intrumental by Page who also wrote a solo for it.

How Many More Times-Really a medley of classic blues songs like The Hunter.

Whole Lotta Love-Although sued by Willie Dixon the lyrics only bore a very SLIGHT similarity although it is an almost word for word copy of a Small Faces song. Music is all origional.

Lemon Song-A slowed down version of Killing Floor

Bring It On Home-A exact copy of a Willie Dixon song of the same name except for when the 12 bar blues section is over and the song picks up.

Moby Dick-Guitar bears a strong resembelance to a song that I cant remember as well as The Girl I love.

Rock and Roll-Drum line is from Little Richards Good Golly Miss Molly.

Stairway To Heaven-First few bars has a resemblance to Spirit's Taurus.

When The Levee Breaks-Lyrics are taken from a 30's blues song of the same name by Memphis Minnie.

Trample Underfoot-Lyrics have the same flow as The Doobie Brothers Long Train Runnin. Some say it's ripped off of Stevie Wonders Superstisious but thats total BS.

Boogie With Stu-A slowed down copy of Ooh My Head wich is a copy of Little Richards Ooh My Soul.

Nobody's Fault But Mine-Lyrics are taken from a traditional blues song.

I think thats it.

the only reason people say that zep did that is because they cant accept the best music in the world, so they have to pick on it. and so what its only 10 songs out of 96. And bring it on home isnt really a copy. and i dont think that stairway sounds like taurus

[Evster2012]

Boogie With Stu-A slowed down copy of Ooh My Head wich is a copy of Little Richards Ooh My Soul.

Ritchie Valens actually. BTW, Valens was in fact credited on Physical Grafitti. His mother simply refused the royalties.

[pop]

The only one that has shocked me is Black Mountain Side...I always thought that it was a Jimmy Page creation; to hear it is note for note a traditional song that he put his name on is weird.

[Evster2012]

Such harsh words from a lady? My my...

You don't know jack.

After you asked about burning sensations, and her ass getting burned? Not so nice.

[NickZepp]

If someone didn't get it from somebody else then music would probably suck.

Mozart was bitched at his entire life because he would take other peoples work and make it to where it actually sounded good. He was one of the most creative and original musicians who ever lived but people bitched at him for plagiarism! He's only one of the 5 most known musicians that ever lived.

That's the way I see the Zeppelin situation. Yes they copied a certain format. But doesn't every good musician do that? How many great love songs with the same theme can the Beatles really make? Does anyone ever see them as old? Fact is good music endures. And Zeppelin's music will always endure because of it's originality and it's explosiveness and the fact that he band had that presence that few other musicians had together.

[Evster2012]

Amen Nick! Everything is derivative to some degree. The guy who invented the wheel probably turned a millstone on its side and had an idea. So who does the credit for the wheel go to? The guy who put it on an axle or the guy who invented the millstone?

[59LesPaul]

Ritchie Valens actually. BTW, Valens was in fact credited on Physical Grafitti. His mother simply refused the royalties.

I've always wanted to know the story behind this.

Why in the blue perpendicular fuck would someone refuse royalties?I know it's not all about money;at least in Led Zeppelins' case,but it seems to me that they were trying to do the right thing,and give credit where it's due(!)

What's up with Ritchies' mom?

[Evster2012]

Why in the blue perpendicular fuck

One of my favorite '59 expressions!

Nah bro, I haven't a clue why she waved them off. Heaven knows I'd cash the checks! I can hear it now: Boo boom cha ching! Boo boom cha ching! Boo boom cha ching! Boo boom cha ching!

[59LesPaul]

Thanks...

I'm sure someone here "knows"...

[mstork]

Look, here's my point. Led Zeppelin didn't get rich on other people's music. Led Zeppelin got rich for being Led Zeppelin. The audiences and the record buyers didn't open their wallets for revamped blues songs. It was the Zeppelin dynamic I paid to hear. The excitement of their performance. Because of Zeppelin, I purchased those old blues albums. Because of Zeppelin, I put money in the pockets of artists I'd never otherwise have paid attention to.

Simply put, the band agreed on a handful of songs they could use simply to have something to play. They needed something to play so they could tour. Cause that's all they did in 1969. Zeppelin II was written on the road, and mainly out of things that evolved onstage. Robert resorted to what he was familiar with in those jams. The blues he loved.

But let's face it, once they got to Bron-Y-Aur, and had some time to really get down to it, it was all them.

Really good summary Ev. When people such as that occasional Howard Stern guest make their case for Zeppelin as "thieves," I want to say, "so I was tricked into thinking Whole Lotta Love is a great, original sounding song?" As if I wouldn't love it if I knew that soneone else said "Way down inside you need love," before Robert did?

This topic is an interesting curiousity but nothing that diminishes Zeppelin's impact in my mind.

[beatbo]

Ritchie Valens actually. BTW, Valens was in fact credited on Physical Grafitti. His mother simply refused the royalties.

evster's right (as usual). zep is a credited lift of the valen's song. lyrics are almost a complete nick (as usual-robert!) but.....

valens stole it.

no lyrical nicks although valens pays tribute by mentioning tutti frutti, but the music is close to spot on, i'd say.

here's ritchie (check out chuck berry in the clip!) this is the only footage of valens doing this song, btw:

ooh, my head

here's richard-check it out:ooh, my soul

[beatbo]

One of my favorite '59 expressions!

Nah bro, I haven't a clue why she waved them off. Heaven knows I'd cash the checks! I can hear it now: Boo boom cha ching! Boo boom cha ching! Boo boom cha ching! Boo boom cha ching!

she tried to get the entire song! page talks about this in a couple of interviews. as a matter of fact, i don't think she relinquished credit, she just wanted a sole credit for her son and tried to sue zeppelin. ritchie valens was usurped out of his royalties and that's why zeppelin put the tune in her name (check the credit on the album). i've never seen any proof that her or her estate did not cash a zeppelin check...

[swandown]

I've always wanted to know the story behind this.

Why in the blue perpendicular fuck would someone refuse royalties?I know it's not all about money;at least in Led Zeppelins' case,but it seems to me that they were trying to do the right thing,and give credit where it's due(!)

What's up with Ritchies' mom?

She refused to accept the 1/6th writing credit, and instead decided to sue for the entire song.

But here's the irony of the situation (which no one ever seems to mention): Ritchie's mother did not own the royalty rights to Ritchie's songs. Therefore, suing for royalties would be an absolutely pointless proposition, as any settlement would go immediately to Ritchie's record company (without his mother ever seeing a dime). She would have been much better off if she had just accepted the 1/6th writing credit.

Furthermore, Ritchie did not write the song in the first place (he copied it from Little Richard), so Ritchie's mom exposed herself to a lawsuit (from Little Richard) by making a public case against Zep.

[SIBLY]

And Jansch plagiarized it from Annie Briggs. The unpalatable truth is that Bert Jansch mugged one of his own heroes and failed to acknowledge the original artist.

Have you listened to the Anne Briggs version? There's a big difrence between Janch's and hers but not between Jimmy's and his.

[widget]

And even if Jansch sued, he still wouldn't get a writers credit as he didn't write the song. Given that over 30 years has now past on these tunes, realistically I doubt there will be any new court cases over Led Zeppelin's catalogue. People also forget that copyright doesn't last forever on these songs and once they expire they stay in the public domain (once a composer loses copyright they're not entitled to royalties or new credits). Many blues songs recorded in the 1920s and 1930s for example have fallen into public domain, more every passing year.

Meg

Have you listened to the Anne Briggs version? There's a big difrence between Janch's and hers but not between Jimmy's and his.

[mustochilli]

Dazed And Confused was origionally I'm Confused by Jake Holmes. A song about a bad acid trip. Zep heard it a Beatnik club and decided it was stealable.

[widget]

Funny, because Zep hadn't existed when Holmes played his version. It would therefore have been impossible for the band to have "stolen" it.

Dazed And Confused was origionally I'm Confused by Jake Holmes. A song about a bad acid trip. Zep heard it a Beatnik club and decided it was stealable.

[NickZepp]

Dazed And Confused was origionally I'm Confused by Jake Holmes. A song about a bad acid trip. Zep heard it a Beatnik club and decided it was stealable.

That's incorrect. Holmes never took acid. The song was about a relationship.

And the Yardbirds heard the song and wrote completely different lyrics based on the song.

[wabana]

I've been following this thread for a while. I think the thing that still bothers me about Zep's attitude to borrowing other people's music is that 90% of the time they didn't acknowledge it, even in retrospect, until they were threatened with lawsuits.

If Page had been a gentleman, he would have contacted some of his heroes (who by the mid-70's would have been pretty down on their luck - and I'm talking Willie Dixon all the way to Bert Jansch and Davey Graham) and just given them some cash.

It wouldn't have hurt him financially and it would have helped give some of those pioneering artists a better life too.

[SIBLY]

I've been following this thread for a while. I think the thing that still bothers me about Zep's attitude to borrowing other people's music is that 90% of the time they didn't acknowledge it, even in retrospect, until they were threatened with lawsuits.

That's the crux of the matter - if they'd have aknowledged the sources there wouldn't have been a prblem.

I've never suggested that Jansch should get any royalties from BMS. Just that Jimmy borrrowed/stole his arrangement of a traditional song.

[swandown]

That's the crux of the matter - if they'd have aknowledged the sources there wouldn't have been a prblem.

I've never suggested that Jansch should get any royalties from BMS. Just that Jimmy borrrowed/stole his arrangement of a traditional song.

"I wasn’t totally original on that. It had been done to death in the folk clubs a lot; Annie Briggs was the first one that I heard do that riff. I was playing it as well, and then there was (English guitarist) Bert Jansch’s version."

- Jimmy Page

There you go. The source(s) were acknowledged. A long time ago. I'm not sure what you're complaining about since Jimmy already did exactly what you wanted.

[guitarmy]

"I wasn’t totally original on that. It had been done to death in the folk clubs a lot; Annie Briggs was the first one that I heard do that riff. I was playing it as well, and then there was (English guitarist) Bert Jansch’s version."

- Jimmy Page

There you go. The source(s) were acknowledged. A long time ago. I'm not sure what you're complaining about since Jimmy already did exactly what you wanted.

probably that it wasn't intitially credited or written down on their album.

[Evster2012]

I still comes down to that by then, Page had been playing it for some time. It was all in the melting pot so-to-speak at that point and had been there awhile. It is very possible he didn't credit Jansch because he simply didn't feel it necessary. Maybe didn't even think about it. When the topic comes around to traditional songs, blues numbers, folkies, the chain of ownership becomes so foggy as to make it really a moot point in many cases.

As for Robert nicking blues lyrics, you have to understand the way he wrote a lot of the time. While the band hammered out the music, Robert would scat bits of old songs to have something to sing while he was working on melody and dynamics, which were the imporant aspect to him. The feel. The words were often just place holders. But by the time it came around to recording the final vocals, he'd often just leave it and move on.

Nah leave it yeah indeed.

Of course, this is in total contrast to when the lyrics were integral, as opposed to blues numbers. When Robert was crafting specific lyrics, he was totally original.