1977

[gstritzi]

Nutrocker & all 77-tour fans, i revisted the Louisville 4-25 Show yesterday(Empress-Valley's Kentucky Bourbon) and was surprised that this show is not a bad show actually better than any show from the 3-leg. Once you get past The Song Remains into about half of Sick Again the Distortion settles down and the show get's quite enjoyable.Yes TYG is SLOPPY&The Idiot that threw the Whiskey Bottle incedent that we all(77-FAN'S) no about does affect the atmosphere of the band as if you listen to the beginning's of the opening set of song's Jimmy's havng fun before each as Robert is talking to the audience Jimmy is having-fun with his guitar so they kind of just Hurry the rest of the show which the fan's are LUCKY THAT THEY DIDN'T WALK OFF(IT WOULD HAVE CAUSED A RIOT) but it is a pretty-good show. I never really listened before because it kind of got a bad-rap & The Song Remain's is barely audible but as i said it does clear-up by Sick-Again and is a GOOD 77-SHOW!

[Nutrocker]

Nutrocker & all 77-tour fans, i revisted the Louisville 4-25 Show yesterday(Empress-Valley's Kentucky Bourbon) and was surprised that this show is not a bad show actually better than any show from the 3-leg. Once you get past The Song Remains into about half of Sick Again the Distortion settles down and the show get's quite enjoyable.Yes TYG is SLOPPY&The Idiot that threw the Whiskey Bottle incedent that we all(77-FAN'S) no about does affect the atmosphere of the band as if you listen to the beginning's of the opening set of song's Jimmy's havng fun before each as Robert is talking to the audience Jimmy is having-fun with his guitar so they kind of just Hurry the rest of the show which the fan's are LUCKY THAT THEY DIDN'T WALK OFF(IT WOULD HAVE CAUSED A RIOT) but it is a pretty-good show. I never really listened before because it kind of got a bad-rap & The Song Remain's is barely audible but as i said it does clear-up by Sick-Again and is a GOOD 77-SHOW!

A very revealing Louisville discussion here (with pictures!):

http://forums.ledzeppelin.com/index.php?/topic/17645-louisville-ky-freedom-hall-kentucky-fair-expo-center-april-25-1977/

[bamf4k]

Funny, I just finished listening to the Pontiac show (35th anniversary today)...good performance, a bit looser than the damn near perfect show in Cleveland two days earlier...and, considering the circumstances, the Pontiac gig is better than it could have been...a crazed, 76,229 crowd, Plant has to do a lot of crowd control, lots of firecrackers, etc...good playing, but they kept the normally extended pieces -BYAS, WS/BMS, Page's 'Noise' solo- short and to the point (though Jonesy's extended piano solo in "No Quarter" gets a bit tedious on the night, not one of the better '77 NQ's IMO) and Bonham skips the hand drumming part of his drum solo. The overall vibe I got was yet another 1977 gig where Zeppelin sorta had a "Let's get it over with" attitude, but I suppose you can't really blame them. The crowd sounds absolutely fuckin' insane on the recording, and the Silverdome venue itself did not seem to offer the best sound quality...way too much echo. In spite of all that, the band rose to the challenge, if not the occasion, whereas they could have completely blown it just as easily.

Where's the fucking VIDEO????? LOL...

For me, the crowning moment of this show is Achilles' Last Stand. Nearly in synch with the studio version and incredibly strong. My favorite version!

[badgeholder]

Hey Nutrocker - check it out:

[Sagittarius Rising]

Ya know as a player I just cannot understand how Page could only be 17% spot on for TYG, I mean it is not a difficult solo by any means if you play it on a conventional guitar sans b-bender and just bend the string. Sure, the tone is off since you can only bend the string 1/4 of the range comparatively. The only thing I can think of is the b-bender was a new toy for him and he had difficulty coordinating the bends due to excessive alcohol and heroin use thereby throwing off his solo. Just a guess but he does not seem to have as much trouble on much more complex solos which do not require use of the b-bender.

So, am I talking out my sphincter or what???

[ally]

ROTFLMAO...I can't believe I'm actually handicapping a fucking live version of a song like it was a ballgame or something (giving a whole new meaning to "Tuesday morning quarterbacking")...ladies and gentlemen, I do believe we are raising the overanalysis of thirty five year old concert performances to a higher art form here...I'm describing this to my wife and she is presently sitting in her easy chair with a her book open in her lap rolling her eyes and laughing at me...Jesus Christ!

Sounds like the kind of response I get from my wife too . Just the same, it's such a beautiful song and anytime I'm checking out a 77 boot, it's usually the first song I refer to. I happen to agree with you that there are very few solid versions of it from that tour which is a real shame because it's such a passionate riff .

[Nutrocker]

Ya know as a player I just cannot understand how Page could only be 17% spot on for TYG, I mean it is not a difficult solo by any means if you play it on a conventional guitar sans b-bender and just bend the string. Sure, the tone is off since you can only bend the string 1/4 of the range comparatively. The only thing I can think of is the b-bender was a new toy for him and he had difficulty coordinating the bends due to excessive alcohol and heroin use thereby throwing off his solo. Just a guess but he does not seem to have as much trouble on much more complex solos which do not require use of the b-bender.

So, am I talking out my sphincter or what???

No, it's more of a case of "Drugs are bad, okay?" LOL (a pre-smack Jimmy probably wouldn't have struggled so much, is what I mean to say)

Having played a B-Bender myself, they are kind of tricky...the amount of movement involved in the 'bending' counts for a lot, a fair bit of precision is involved (i.e. just the right amount of 'pull' on the bender mechanism), which probably goes a long way towards explaining why Page struggled with it on "Ten Years Gone". Eventually, of course, he did get a handle on B-Bender playing, as he used it quite a bit in the Firm days and beyond.

[tom kid]

There's no doubt that the drugs and alcohol effected Page's playing heavily from 1975 onwards really (the broken finger does attribute to this but its no secret he was smashing a bottle of Jack before going on stage). However, it is well documented that he was having problems with his hands as early as 1972. I think this in part explains the deterioration in his playing and it might not have been as drastic as it was if he didn't have the problem of arthritis to contend with. Playing the guitar around his knees also must have been a factor as well haha.

Having listened to a lot of Stones shows from '75 through to '81 Ron Wood seems pretty good most of the time, and we all know his partying reputation. Going off topic a bit here but imo Jagger seems to be the problem with a lot of the shows during this period, he seemed to stop singing and started shouting into the mic. Anyway, check out this video of Woody in 1981 at the Hampton Coliseum, he's completely trashed but during this song he busts out a blistering solo, unfortunately it isn't in the vid but the show is very easy to get a hold of now that its just been officially released, I'd recommend getting it by the way!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnKvEVsz6aE

[Nutrocker]

There's no doubt that the drugs and alcohol effected Page's playing heavily from 1975 onwards really (the broken finger does attribute to this but its no secret he was smashing a bottle of Jack before going on stage). However, it is well documented that he was having problems with his hands as early as 1972. I think this in part explains the deterioration in his playing and it might not have been as drastic as it was if he didn't have the problem of arthritis to contend with. Playing the guitar around his knees also must have been a factor as well haha.

Having listened to a lot of Stones shows from '75 through to '81 Ron Wood seems pretty good most of the time, and we all know his partying reputation. Going off topic a bit here but imo Jagger seems to be the problem with a lot of the shows during this period, he seemed to stop singing and started shouting into the mic. Anyway, check out this video of Woody in 1981 at the Hampton Coliseum, he's completely trashed but during this song he busts out a blistering solo, unfortunately it isn't in the vid but the show is very easy to get a hold of now that its just been officially released, I'd recommend getting it by the way!

I've argued that same point before as well re: Page's ability to play whilst fucked up on booze and drugs VS Keith and Woody (we are in agreement that when it comes to the Stones an intoxicated Mick Jagger often comes off worse than Ron and Keith). I love the '75-'81 era Stones almost as much as I do '75-'80 period Zeppelin, and I don't think I've ever heard Ronnie Wood in particular sound as sloppy as Jimmy Page did some nights. It's been said before that Page was never the most technically proficient picker in the world -it's not like his playing all of a sudden got sloppy, out of tune, etc overnight in 1975 or anything (check the solo bit in the studio version of "Heartbreaker" for example )- it just became more apparent over time, and his fingers were probably as much to blame as the JD and smack. Hell, age itself can have an effect. The main difference when it comes to Zep VS Stones guitar playing is that there are two guitarists in the Stones; if Ronnie is having an off night Keith can cover for him, and vice versa whereas Jimmy was all alone on stage with Zeppelin- if he was having an off night there was no way to hide it.

And yeah, that Hampton '81 Stones show does kick ass, though I much prefer the '75 L.A. gig they just put it even if it does have some jaw dropping mistakes, mostly courtesy of Michael Philip Jagger It's amazing the Stones agreed to put out such a 'warts and all' performance...something James Patrick Page would never deign to do, unfortunately...

[tom kid]

And yeah, that Hampton '81 Stones show does kick ass, though I much prefer the '75 L.A. gig they just put it even if it does have some jaw dropping mistakes, mostly courtesy of Michael Philip Jagger It's amazing the Stones agreed to put out such a 'warts and all' performance...something James Patrick Page would never deign to do, unfortunately...

Agreed about the LA '75 gig, I'd had that show for a while but to have it in that quality is awesome. The best version of You Can't Always Get What You Want I've ever heard tbh, Ronnie absolutely smokes his extended solo. Gotta give props to Jagger and co. for releasing it completely unedited, I don't know why they put up this version of Happy on youtube though haha:

[tom kid]

And yeah, that Hampton '81 Stones show does kick ass, though I much prefer the '75 L.A. gig they just put it even if it does have some jaw dropping mistakes, mostly courtesy of Michael Philip Jagger It's amazing the Stones agreed to put out such a 'warts and all' performance...something James Patrick Page would never deign to do, unfortunately...

Agreed about the LA '75 gig, I'd had that show for a while but to have it in that quality is awesome. The best version of You Can't Always Get What You Want I've ever heard tbh, Ronnie absolutely smokes his extended solo. Gotta give props to Jagger and co. for releasing it completely unedited, I don't know why they put up this version of Happy on youtube though, Keith makes an absolute meal of it lol.

[Daeron]

Does anybody know if a second encore was played at Landover (5-30-77)? As others have stated, it does sound like the band might be returning to the stage after Rock and Roll.

[Nutrocker]

Does anybody know if a second encore was played at Landover (5-30-77)? As others have stated, it does sound like the band might be returning to the stage after Rock and Roll.

That's a mystery right up there with the ol' Caramilk Secret indeed...be nice if someone who actually attended that May 30 show could confirm it or not

The circulating audience recording gives every indication that the band returned to the stage following "Rock And Roll". Considering a) they pretty much kicked ass that night and b ) it was the last night of a four night run it sorta makes sense that they came back and did another encore- "Trampled Under Foot" would be my guess (they last did it as second encore in Houston) but something like "Black Dog" or "Heartbreaker" isn't beyond the scope, either. But still, listen to the audience start to go fuckin' bananas right before the tape cuts out on the recording...just the same, unless an alternate source for the show pops up (soundboard??!!) or the master recording of the circulating AUD source miraculously appears with the missing encore, or somebody who attended the gig comes forward and confirms, we'll never know for sure...but I -among others- am convinced on the basis of the audience recording that they did come back and do another song. The two 'aborted' gigs aside (Tampa and 4-9-77 in Chicago), Tempe is the only '77 show where there were no encores played at all, for a variety of good reasons...

[Sagittarius Rising]

I've argued that same point before as well re: Page's ability to play whilst fucked up on booze and drugs VS Keith and Woody (we are in agreement that when it comes to the Stones an intoxicated Mick Jagger often comes off worse than Ron and Keith). I love the '75-'81 era Stones almost as much as I do '75-'80 period Zeppelin, and I don't think I've ever heard Ronnie Wood in particular sound as sloppy as Jimmy Page did some nights. It's been said before that Page was never the most technically proficient picker in the world -it's not like his playing all of a sudden got sloppy, out of tune, etc overnight in 1975 or anything (check the solo bit in the studio version of "Heartbreaker" for example )- it just became more apparent over time, and his fingers were probably as much to blame as the JD and smack. Hell, age itself can have an effect. The main difference when it comes to Zep VS Stones guitar playing is that there are two guitarists in the Stones; if Ronnie is having an off night Keith can cover for him, and vice versa whereas Jimmy was all alone on stage with Zeppelin- if he was having an off night there was no way to hide it.

And yeah, that Hampton '81 Stones show does kick ass, though I much prefer the '75 L.A. gig they just put it even if it does have some jaw dropping mistakes, mostly courtesy of Michael Philip Jagger It's amazing the Stones agreed to put out such a 'warts and all' performance...something James Patrick Page would never deign to do, unfortunately...

There may be some truth to that however this theory leads to a deeper mystery. If this was the case, ie arthritis and age, than why is his best playing, IMO, post 1998? I mean besides being at the shows personally, the 98' P&P tour was amazing playing wise. I have seen countless video performances from this period and without a doubt this is the cleanest, most precise Jimmy Page ever in his career. That Tea for One they did on a few dates was brilliant, perfect yet so emotive.

What do you think???

[Nutrocker]

There may be some truth to that however this theory leads to a deeper mystery. If this was the case, ie arthritis and age, than why is his best playing, IMO, post 1998? I mean besides being at the shows personally, the 98' P&P tour was amazing playing wise. I have seen countless video performances from this period and without a doubt this is the cleanest, most precise Jimmy Page ever in his career. That Tea for One they did on a few dates was brilliant, perfect yet so emotive.

What do you think???

Well, the fact that Jimmy was clean and sober in '98 made a big difference. Shit, even his playing at the 2007 Zeppelin Reunion show was miles ahead of anything he'd played in a full on 'Zeppelin' context since at least 1975, if not earlier.

To once again compare Page and Keith Richards...I don't think age and arthritis has anywhere near the profound effect on Jimmy's playing as it has Keith's. Some of Keith's fuckups during the last Stones tour -both before and after he suffered his near fatal head injury- make Page's much derided playing during the '75-'80 period seem like Jimi Hendrix. I mean, the intro to "Brown Sugar" is not that hard to play, and Keith screwed it up quite a few times on the "Bang" tour. But have you seen his fingers? Jesus Christ, they look like some fucked up form of sausage or a goddamn alien sex toy...certainly not the digits required to play two hours of open-G riffs and Chuck Berryish leads. Jimmy Page doesn't have that condition, and it shows in his playing. Suffering as many injuries to his fingers as he did -at least two, and it didn't help that he basically ignored them and kept on playing- didn't have nearly the negative effect on Jimmy's playing that copious amounts of Jack Daniels and China White did.

[Daeron]

That's a mystery right up there with the ol' Caramilk Secret indeed...be nice if someone who actually attended that May 30 show could confirm it or not

The circulating audience recording gives every indication that the band returned to the stage following "Rock And Roll". Considering a) they pretty much kicked ass that night and b ) it was the last night of a four night run it sorta makes sense that they came back and did another encore- "Trampled Under Foot" would be my guess (they last did it as second encore in Houston) but something like "Black Dog" or "Heartbreaker" isn't beyond the scope, either. But still, listen to the audience start to go fuckin' bananas right before the tape cuts out on the recording...just the same, unless an alternate source for the show pops up (soundboard??!!) or the master recording of the circulating AUD source miraculously appears with the missing encore, or somebody who attended the gig comes forward and confirms, we'll never know for sure...but I -among others- am convinced on the basis of the audience recording that they did come back and do another song. The two 'aborted' gigs aside (Tampa and 4-9-77 in Chicago), Tempe is the only '77 show where there were no encores played at all, for a variety of good reasons...

On a side note, I believe you can hear audience members booing after the house lights go up on 5-26-77 after not receiving a second encore. And I can understand how it would be kind of a let down haha.

[gstritzi]

There was no encore in ST.Louis -77 also as some clown threw a bottle that almost hit Robert so they left after Stairway!

[Nutrocker]

On a side note, I believe you can hear audience members booing after the house lights go up on 5-26-77 after not receiving a second encore. And I can understand how it would be kind of a let down haha.

True, but in the context of the Landover gigs IMO May 26 (and especially May 28) sucked for the most part whereas May 30 is one of the best shows of the tour. The band generally only busted out a second encore or extra songs at the gigs if they thought they were kicking ass on the night.

[Nutrocker]

There was no encore in ST.Louis -77 also as some clown threw a bottle that almost hit Robert so they left after Stairway!

Now that you mention it, I want to say something similar happened at the final New York show June 14- didn't Page or Plant get hit in the hand by a firecracker and once again they said thank you and goodnight following Stairway? (The audience tape is incomplete.) Can't say that I'd blame them. though. In Louisville after someone chucked a bottle at the stage after "Ten Years Gone" they nearly packed it in right then and there, but cooler heads prevailed. Same as in Vienna in 1980 after the infamous "Firecracker Incident" during "White Summer"...

[tom kid]

Well, the fact that Jimmy was clean and sober in '98 made a big difference. Shit, even his playing at the 2007 Zeppelin Reunion show was miles ahead of anything he'd played in a full on 'Zeppelin' context since at least 1975, if not earlier.

To once again compare Page and Keith Richards...I don't think age and arthritis has anywhere near the profound effect on Jimmy's playing as it has Keith's. Some of Keith's fuckups during the last Stones tour -both before and after he suffered his near fatal head injury- make Page's much derided playing during the '75-'80 period seem like Jimi Hendrix. I mean, the intro to "Brown Sugar" is not that hard to play, and Keith screwed it up quite a few times on the "Bang" tour. But have you seen his fingers? Jesus Christ, they look like some fucked up form of sausage or a goddamn alien sex toy...certainly not the digits required to play two hours of open-G riffs and Chuck Berryish leads. Jimmy Page doesn't have that condition, and it shows in his playing. Suffering as many injuries to his fingers as he did -at least two, and it didn't help that he basically ignored them and kept on playing- didn't have nearly the negative effect on Jimmy's playing that copious amounts of Jack Daniels and China White did.

It's pretty sad watching Keith try to play on a lot of those shows from '05-'07. He doesn't even really play constantly a lot of the time, just throws in licks. He still had it on on the '02-'03 tour imo, just listen to Monkey Man from any of those shows. But during the most recent tour he certainly wasn't the constantly riffing Richards that we've have grown accustomed to. I've also noticed from watching videos from the bigger bang tour that he seems insistent on stepping all over Woody's solos and what he's playing isn't nearly as good as what Ronnie is playing. Seems that his ego has grown larger as the years have gone on.

It's quite hard to compare his and Page's playing from recent years though. Compare the amount of shows that Richards have played during the 21st century to what Page has. Who knows what Jimmy's playing would have sounded like if he played night after night like Richards has throughout the 2000's. The O2 was great, sure. But if a tour had come after that who knows how consistent he would have been? Not bashing Page in any way, hell the guy is my favourite guitarist.

The Stones are supposedly heading out for one last bash next year, I feel sad saying this but I don't think Keef is up to it anymore, if a lot of the intros to Happy from the last tour are anything to go by.

[Nutrocker]

It's pretty sad watching Keith try to play on a lot of those shows from '05-'07. He doesn't even really play constantly a lot of the time, just throws in licks. He still had it on on the '02-'03 tour imo, just listen to Monkey Man from any of those shows. But during the most recent tour he certainly wasn't the constantly riffing Richards that we've have grown accustomed to. I've also noticed from watching videos from the bigger bang tour that he seems insistent on stepping all over Woody's solos and what he's playing isn't nearly as good as what Ronnie is playing. Seems that his ego has grown larger as the years have gone on.

It's quite hard to compare his and Page's playing from recent years though. Compare the amount of shows that Richards have played during the 21st century to what Page has. Who knows what Jimmy's playing would have sounded like if he played night after night like Richards has throughout the 2000's. The O2 was great, sure. But if a tour had come after that who knows how consistent he would have been? Not bashing Page in any way, hell the guy is my favourite guitarist.

The Stones are supposedly heading out for one last bash next year, I feel sad saying this but I don't think Keef is up to it anymore, if a lot of the intros to Happy from the last tour are anything to go by.

We keep getting tripped off on this Page VS Richards discussion but it does have some bearing on Page's playing difficulties IMO; the two of them make for an innaresting comparison...

You're comments about the rise in Keith's ego are spot on. The irony being how much his talents as a lead guitarist have diminished over the years; sure Keef's arthritis and whatnot play a factor, but it's hard to believe that the same guy who laid down the classic solo on "Sympathy For The Devil" and did almost all the guitar playing himself on Beggar's Banquet and -especially- Let It Bleed is this same dude who these days either blows intros he by all rights should be able to play in his sleep or plays solos that generally consist of the same Chuck Berry licks repeated ad naseum (whether they fit the song or not IMO). I mean, say what you will about Jimmy Page back in the '75-'80 era, but at least he didn't tend to repeat the same licks over and over again! Yeah, I can cringe and chuckle over some of Jimmy's fuckups in '77, but quite frankly I find Keith's Berry licks almost as cringeworthy. Seriously, Keef- just let Woody play the fucking leads, he's much better at it!

As for James Patrick nowadays, I'd like to think he would have at least made the effort to remain consistent in his playing if Zeppelin had toured after the reunion gig. Who knows, playing night after night might have caused the band in general to really start kicking ass as the tour progressed.

[gstritzi]

Yes Nutrocker, at the last show at THE-GARDEN 6-14-77 Jimmy was hit on the Hand by a FireWork-The show did go on & they did perform the encore WLL/R/roll but RUMOR was that MICK & KEITH were backstage and were going to join Zep onstage to perform another 3-song but after Rock n Roll the BAND made a VERY-QUICK EXIT as you can see on THE-ASSEMBLAGE-Video.

[tom kid]

Yes Nutrocker, at the last show at THE-GARDEN 6-14-77 Jimmy was hit on the Hand by a FireWork-The show did go on & they did perform the encore WLL/R/roll but RUMOR was that MICK & KEITH were backstage and were going to join Zep onstage to perform another 3-song but after Rock n Roll the BAND made a VERY-QUICK EXIT as you can see on THE-ASSEMBLAGE-Video.

Haha, seems the Stones want to stick around in this thread! That would have been awesome if it happened, but Keith has said that he wasn't a fan of Zeppelin (jealousy perhaps?). So I find it unlikely that he would want to perform on stage with them, who knows though? Wonder what they would have performed, maybe a medley of classic rock and roll songs? Both bands were big fans of 50s Rock and Roll.

[gstritzi]

Tom U R RITE!!! Can't keep um off lately!!!! Jimmy was hanging out at Atlantic between the M.S.G.SHOW'S 6-7/THRU6/14 while it seem's the Stone's were in the studio... it was more likely that Ronnie would join them again as he did in 75 COMM-BREAKDOWN but the Rumor has alway's been that it was indeed Mick & Keith?

[Strider]

...but RUMOR was that MICK & KEITH were backstage and were going to join Zep onstage to perform another 3-song...

I don't BELIEVE that at all. Knowing how the Glimmer Twins felt about Led Zeppelin, the idea is preposterous that Mick and Keef would consider Zeppelin their "equals" and be subservient and share the stage with them. Everybody's buddy Ronnie Wood or Keith Moon...yes. But not aristocratic jet-setter Mick.

As for whether there was a second encore on May 30, 1977 Landover...didn't Rick aka LedZeppFan77 go to this gig? He should be able to provide the answer...unless he was one of those types to leave early to "beat the traffic".