zepplin69 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Indeed...then we'll see all the remasters (good, bad and in between)...then the re-remasters...then the re-re-remasters...then the badly synced matrixes with the audience recordings... Although word is Bluecongo (who did the classic 12-2-75 MSG Four Blocks In The Snow matrix) is going to give a May 30 matrix a go...that dude knows his shit, and I bet if he can carry it off it'll end up being the definitive version of the concert (although how he plans on dealing with the distorted "The Song Remains The Same" from the audience tape I have no idea) check out the beezbub remaster version of the 5/30/77 show if you want to hear how good was the dealing with the distorted "The Song Remains The Same".. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LZ77 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I love the bow solo on the 25th....Jimmy gets the crowd in a frenzy.... https://m.youtube.co...&feature=relmfu (Edit) I wish the thermin solo went on for longer, it seemed very unique. This is what they were seeing - who wouldn't be in a frenzy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepscoda Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 ^ NICE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieshoes Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Great to get these soundboards for sure. Hopefully we'll see more in this format, with two shows being released at the same time. As for the performances, I think that there's always been a little too much praise for 5/30. Same goes for 4/28 and 4/30. These shows always get mentioned as being good gigs, but I think that they end up being a "the best of the rest", which for 1977 isn't necessarily a good thing. Yeah, 4/30 might have a video attached to it, and 4/28 and 5/30 have recordings which have nice atmosphere to them. But the performances really aren't that special, and there are still lots of mistakes in the performances. The band making it through a show in one piece isn't necessarily the mark of quality. Plant's comment of "This is our fourth and final night here...so, you know what last nights in a town are..." after Sick Again on 5/30, kind of sums up the choreographed nature of these 77 shows. Considering that the band didn't even stay in Landover during the week they played there (they stayed in New York and flew back and forth every night), it reminds me of the "Hello Cleveland" scene from Spinal Tap. Add to this that Plant repeatedly pronounces the state name as "Mary-land", and his comment of "I don't think that was really magical though, do you?" after a sloppy Nobody's Fault But Mine, and I think it makes it even more clear just how much these shows were just another night on the long tour. The 1977 tour was all about New York and LA. Between those sets of shows, you have all you could ever want from 1977, including the only moments on the tour where the band actually broke away from their choreographed set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mielazul Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Great to get these soundboards for sure. Hopefully we'll see more in this format, with two shows being released at the same time. As for the performances, I think that there's always been a little too much praise for 5/30. Same goes for 4/28 and 4/30. These shows always get mentioned as being good gigs, but I think that they end up being a "the best of the rest", which for 1977 isn't necessarily a good thing. Yeah, 4/30 might have a video attached to it, and 4/28 and 5/30 have recordings which have nice atmosphere to them. But the performances really aren't that special, and there are still lots of mistakes in the performances. The band making it through a show in one piece isn't necessarily the mark of quality. Plant's comment of "This is our fourth and final night here...so, you know what last nights in a town are..." after Sick Again on 5/30, kind of sums up the choreographed nature of these 77 shows. Considering that the band didn't even stay in Landover during the week they played there (they stayed in New York and flew back and forth every night), it reminds me of the "Hello Cleveland" scene from Spinal Tap. Add to this that Plant repeatedly pronounces the state name as "Mary-land", and his comment of "I don't think that was really magical though, do you?" after a sloppy Nobody's Fault But Mine, and I think it makes it even more clear just how much these shows were just another night on the long tour. The 1977 tour was all about New York and LA. Between those sets of shows, you have all you could ever want from 1977, including the only moments on the tour where the band actually broke away from their choreographed set. Although I love the 30th, when I first heard it I also thought Plant was being a little critical of their own performance with his "not magical" quote. But I later came to realize - at least I think I'm right on this - that he was referring to the bottle-rocket incident (where his shirt/blouse/child's kimono, whatever) was set on fire...because the things he said after the magical comment seem to back this up. So he was simply - and kind of subtly, considering what happened - criticizing the ever-present fireworks brigade. The '77 tour had some train-wrecks, but when I listen to most of the recordings - and not just from LA and NY - I get a feeling of such a powerful epic vibe in the air. It would have been mind-blowing to be at those shows. Anyway, I'll get double shot in a few days, hopefully, and see what I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mielazul Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Yeah, I went back and listened, and that's what happened...after the "not magical" comment, he refers to "getting undressed" which is what he did after his shirt caught fire (I've read numerous accounts of this). It's funny, I couldn't have agreed less with your assessment of the vibe, and the thing you cite is actually an indication of what a great vibe was prevailing on the 30th. Led Zep HATED those fireworks, and frequently got very angry about them. For Rob to be so good-natured when a bottle rocket actually got caught in his shirt and set him on fire...well, that's a pretty positive vibe, I think. And come on, the "last night" comment is comparable to wandering around lost backstage in a maze of maintenance halls, shouting "Hello Cleveland"? The '77 bashes always amaze me with their need to make so many awesome nights seem like some Heroin Burnout Nightmare. Hell, all they have to do is say "Tempe" and sit back and smile. But, I don't care - '77 was mindblowing. If you read the (seemingly hundreds) of accounts on this site from people who were there, you'll find a lot of people who agree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabe Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 It was mindblowing, to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Great to get these soundboards for sure. Hopefully we'll see more in this format, with two shows being released at the same time. As for the performances, I think that there's always been a little too much praise for 5/30. Same goes for 4/28 and 4/30. These shows always get mentioned as being good gigs, but I think that they end up being a "the best of the rest", which for 1977 isn't necessarily a good thing. Yeah, 4/30 might have a video attached to it, and 4/28 and 5/30 have recordings which have nice atmosphere to them. But the performances really aren't that special, and there are still lots of mistakes in the performances. The band making it through a show in one piece isn't necessarily the mark of quality. As much as I love the '77 tour, the part I bolded is one of the most astute assessments of the performances I have ever seen, cookie. Even the L.A. and New York shows have their moments where the band can be totally magical one minute and teetering on the edge of a trainwreck the next. There is no one 'technically perfect' 1977 Zeppelin gig, even the better gigs, and that's not to say that the band never fucked up royally onstage in the past (the U.S. tour in '73 is where the cracks really started to show, I'd reckon), it just got worse over the years, particularly the more Page's numerous vices got the better of him. I would still say April 28 is one of the more technically perfect performances (i.e. least amount of mistakes, sloppy playing, etc); as far as I'm concerned it is even better than some of the NY/L.A. gigs. Plant's comment of "This is our fourth and final night here...so, you know what last nights in a town are..." after Sick Again on 5/30, kind of sums up the choreographed nature of these 77 shows. Considering that the band didn't even stay in Landover during the week they played there (they stayed in New York and flew back and forth every night), it reminds me of the "Hello Cleveland" scene from Spinal Tap. Add to this that Plant repeatedly pronounces the state name as "Mary-land", and his comment of "I don't think that was really magical though, do you?" after a sloppy Nobody's Fault But Mine, and I think it makes it even more clear just how much these shows were just another night on the long tour. Of the four Landover gigs, I think the fourth night is the only decent one. I haven't heard the entire 5/25 soundboard but based on what I have heard it was another off night. And, yeah, I am pretty sure that they fucked up "Nobody's Fault But Mine" because of the bottle rocket setting Plant's shirt on fire. I'm actually surprised that they just sloughed that one off and didn't stop the show (compare to the bottle hitting Page's guitar in Louisville, or the infamous firecracker incident in Vienna in 1980) The 1977 tour was all about New York and LA. Between those sets of shows, you have all you could ever want from 1977, including the only moments on the tour where the band actually broke away from their choreographed set. This is true; as I've said before, the 1977 gigs were arguably the least spontaneous of Zeppelin's career (although '75 seemed just as cookie cutter) Although I love the 30th, when I first heard it I also thought Plant was being a little critical of their own performance with his "not magical" quote. But I later came to realize - at least I think I'm right on this - that he was referring to the bottle-rocket incident (where his shirt/blouse/child's kimono, whatever) was set on fire...because the things he said after the magical comment seem to back this up. So he was simply - and kind of subtly, considering what happened - criticizing the ever-present fireworks brigade. The '77 tour had some train-wrecks, but when I listen to most of the recordings - and not just from LA and NY - I get a feeling of such a powerful epic vibe in the air. It would have been mind-blowing to be at those shows. Anyway, I'll get double shot in a few days, hopefully, and see what I think... As I just said, I don't think there's any doubt the band was distracted by the bottle rocket, although I'm sure the "magical" comment was in reference to the performance of "Nobody's Fault But Mine" and not Robert literally losing his shirt... Still, yer right, those 1977 shows were epic, but I think you really had to be there...the recordings don't do these concerts justice, and ultimately make them seem worse than they actually were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Yeah, I went back and listened, and that's what happened...after the "not magical" comment, he refers to "getting undressed" which is what he did after his shirt caught fire (I've read numerous accounts of this). It's funny, I couldn't have agreed less with your assessment of the vibe, and the thing you cite is actually an indication of what a great vibe was prevailing on the 30th. Led Zep HATED those fireworks, and frequently got very angry about them. For Rob to be so good-natured when a bottle rocket actually got caught in his shirt and set him on fire...well, that's a pretty positive vibe, I think. Think of how Roger Waters would have reacted to something like that And come on, the "last night" comment is comparable to wandering around lost backstage in a maze of maintenance halls, shouting "Hello Cleveland"? The '77 bashes always amaze me with their need to make so many awesome nights seem like some Heroin Burnout Nightmare. Hell, all they have to do is say "Tempe" and sit back and smile. But, I don't care - '77 was mindblowing. If you read the (seemingly hundreds) of accounts on this site from people who were there, you'll find a lot of people who agree with me. Again, I love the '77 tour, but let's face it, generally speaking the gigs were like a heroin burnout nightmare...you probably could put the better performances down to Page having more cocaine than smack in his system at the time. Yeah, that may sound harsh, but probably not too far from the truth. Not a lot of the people involved with the tour -from Richard Cole on down- have a lot of good things to say about those days, and they pretty much as single out heroin as being the main culprit. It was mindblowing, to be sure. Hello Jabe! Happy New Year, and all that good shit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mielazul Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Hey Nutrocker - I respect your expertise on '77, but I just listened to it a few minutes ago, and I think you're wrong about the magic comment. He's referring to the "magic" of bursting into flames. Which he didn't exactly appreciate, but like I said, I think he was amazingly cool about it, considering what happened. Seems like most, if not all, accounts of this particular show (I know there are many here somewhere) speak of a great vibe. Anyway, check out the Plantation again sometime, when you get the chance. It was a good NFBM anyway - certainly nothing for Rob to call out. It was the bottle rocket. Your comment popped up while I was writing this about employees such as Cole. Yeah, the organization was pretty dark behind the scenes...but I think the heroin thing is played up a bit too much (though admittedly it was a serious problem). With typical collectors luck, the images from Seattle kind of dominate the common impression now (sleeping sickness...sigh), and reinforce this idea of a smacked out zombie staggering around. But you check so many of the clips from 77 and Page is dancing around like a maniac...and in my opinion the there's a similar difference between how most the shows were and how a lot of people think they were. Of course, you've heard everything available, from what I've read, so your opinion is certainly informed. I'm new to this forum, and I've seen so many of your quotes, and I mean this is the most sincere way (not snarky, in other words) but I can't for the life of me understand why you call yourself the King of 77. It's like you have all the knowledge but none of the admiration...maybe that's the wrong word...I don't know, it's like you're not a believer. I've seen you get pretty sharp with people, but I'll say it again - I honestly don't mean to fuck with you, or disrespect you. it just seems weird to me. And I don't think being a believer means ignoring the bad stuff...but damn, if you really think the tour was a burnout nightmare...well, I guss I don't get your nickname. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabe Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Think of how Roger Waters would have reacted to something like that Again, I love the '77 tour, but let's face it, generally speaking the gigs were like a heroin burnout nightmare...you probably could put the better performances down to Page having more cocaine than smack in his system at the time. Yeah, that may sound harsh, but probably not too far from the truth. Not a lot of the people involved with the tour -from Richard Cole on down- have a lot of good things to say about those days, and they pretty much as single out heroin as being the main culprit. Hello Jabe! Happy New Year, and all that good shit... Nutrocker, the man with the clear vision. Great to see you back around these parts, hope your stay is a bit... stayerer. Happy New Year to you, my friend! (5/18 soundboard would put all to rest all about '77.) Use your pull, influence, '77 knowledge, charm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Of course, you've heard everything available, from what I've read, so your opinion is certainly informed. I'm new to this forum, and I've seen so many of your quotes, and I mean this is the most sincere way (not snarky, in other words) but I can't for the life of me understand why you call yourself the King of 77. It's like you have all the knowledge but none of the admiration...maybe that's the wrong word...I don't know, it's like you're not a believer. I've seen you get pretty sharp with people, but I'll say it again - I honestly don't mean to fuck with you, or disrespect you. it just seems weird to me. And I don't think being a believer means ignoring the bad stuff...but damn, if you really think the tour was a burnout nightmare...well, I guss I don't get your nickname. Actually my admiration for the '77 tour does stem from the fact that a lot of the gigs had serious trainwreck potential. Sounds fucked up, I know, but as a live music afficiando as well as being a bit of a musician myself, I can say from personal experience that no live performance goes off 100% perfect, it's just that some artists can cover up the mistakes better than others. What I love about the 1977 tour is that it was real...as in there were four human beings onstage, with all the vices and foibles that goes along with being human. The 1977 tour was the biggest tour ever to take place at that time; it was epic, and sounds epic, in spite of some of the band's arguably questionable decisions regarding the setlist, etc. I mean, if there's one thing I can't stand when it comes to a live performance, is when every note, word and bit of onstage banter is completely scripted- when the artist comes across as being like a musical robot, every thing is as close to perfect as humanly possible, night after night. The missus and I saw Paul McCartney a few weeks back...damn near every note Macca and his band played was identical to the record -hardly any spontaneity or improvisation at all- and every word Sir Paul said to the audience was exactly the same as every other gig he plays (I've heard enough recent McCartney audience tapes to tell). Don't get me wrong, it was great to see the guy -he still sounds and plays pretty fuckin' good for a dude who's 70- but the performances are completely soulless IMO. The 1977 Zeppelin tour is just about the complete opposite of that McCartney show. All the solos Page played were different, Plant shook up his stage banter from night to night, and the band didn't sound like a bunch of robots. Again, it sounds real, mistakes and all. I wouldn't want it any other way...I may sound critical, but it's objectivity more than anything. Do I 'believe' in the tour? Well, the music Led Zeppelin made in onstage in 1977 is some of my favourite music made by anybody, ever, good, bad, or indifferent. And for what it's worth, if I had a time machine, I wouldn't go back and prevent the JFK assassination, or try to stop Hitler or anything lofty like that, I'd just go see one of those '77 shows, that'd do me. And, of course, Presence is my favourite Led Zeppelin album, which is what got me into the '77 tour in the first place..."How the hell did they pull off 'Achilles Last Stand' live?!" I asked myself...I just had to find out...it was that obsession, for wont of a better word, that made people (my wife chief among them) call me the "King Of '77"...I've tried to abdicate in the past but then something will happen like these news '77 soundboards coming out, and, well...like the man said, "Every time I try to get out, they pull me back in!" :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mielazul Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 I was opening myself up for a boatload of abuse, so thanks for the cool answer instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 I was opening myself up for a boatload of abuse, so thanks for the cool answer instead. Ach, yer safe, it's only the members of the "Handful Of Gimme" crowd and total bullshit artists that earn my wrath... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Shep Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 generally speaking the gigs were like a heroin burnout nightmare...you probably could put the better performances down to Page having more cocaine than smack in his system at the time. You're probably right to a point about the smack/coke balance, but in my experience people can still function pretty much normally on smack, as long as it's not a bad bag. No, my guess is that JP's on-stage problems from 77 onwards were almost totally alcohol-related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 You're probably right to a point about the smack/coke balance, but in my experience people can still function pretty much normally on smack, as long as it's not a bad bag. No, my guess is that JP's on-stage problems from 77 onwards were almost totally alcohol-related. As Neil Young said, "When yer drunk you don't play bad, you just play really, really slow!" (Ol' Shakey was referring to the Tonight's The Night period with that remark) Still, you probably have a point regarding Page's booze intake on top of all the drugs -I'm thinking of the famous 1975 backstage photo where Jimmy is guzzling back a bottle of Jack Daniel's like he's about to pull a Bluto Blutarsky and just pour the fuckin' bottle all over himself No, I don't suppose a diet of booze/coke/smack is going to be conducive towards precision guitar playing... But -and I've made this point a few times in the past- compare Jimmy Page to Keith Richards...if anything, Keith was an even bigger boozer and junkie than Page, yet I've never known Keef The Human Riff to be struck with the fumble fingers back in his junkie days like Jimmy, although to be fair Keith also had Ron Wood or Mick Taylor -not exactly poster children for sobriety themselves- to cover for him. IMO Keith Richards never really blew it onstage until in recent years; clearly the man has some serious issues with arthritis (just seeing pictures of Keith Richards' fingers can be painful) and that has impaired his guitar playing considerably (though he sounded pretty good at the Stones' recent 50th anniversary shows). Of course Jimmy Page has also been prone to health related issues with his fingers in the past, and I believe that was probably as much of a factor in Zeppelin's later years as his numerous vices were. I know Jimmy has made comments in the past that heroin made him 'more focused' but it wouldn't surprise me if he was a user due to its painkilling properties as well (admittedly smack is one of the few drugs I never tried -never wanted to- so I have no idea what it's actually like) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Keith Richards is a horrible live guitarist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mielazul Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Keith Richards is a horrible live guitarist. Keith seemed to maintain okay til 73. I love the 72 Stones tour, and I have that famous 73 bootleg from Brussels that's incendiary. But I also have a vid of the 75 LA show (which I kind of perversely like) and Keith is in trouble for sure. Check him trying to sing Happy (plenty of clips from LA 75 on youtube). He's really schwacked. Anyway, Keith's role in the band during the Taylor years - his heroin years basically - was being the "groove machine." It's sometimes easier to play a good simple groove when you're in a narcotic haze - if you don't push it too far. It's another thing entirely to play Achilles Last Stand or something like that. Then again, I think Jimmy knocked Achilles out of the park many times, as well as the other difficult songs in the later era. I think the biggest problem with narcotic use in terms of guitar playing (apart from getting sick and/or dead) isn't the immediate effects, but the long term effects on your practice habits. When you become addicted, it starts to be the main thing in your life instead of your music...and you don't practice as much, and it starts to show. Think of the INSANE amount of practicing you'd have to do to pull off the long and very demanding 77 set list perfectly. If Jimmy was straight and did what was required, he'd probably have severe tendonitis anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mielazul Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 I should correct myself, cuz Keith's heroin years went far past the Taylor years...but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Keith Richards is a horrible live guitarist. Again, compared to who? Jimmy Page from 1977 to 1980? Over the years I've heard just about every live recording of The Rolling Stones from 1969 on, and, to the best of my recollection, never, not once, does Keith fuck up as badly as Jimmy Page was known to do on occasion. We can cite a plethora of cringeworthy Page moments in live performance, you just can't say the same thing about Keith Richards, sorry. At least not during the height of their addictions, that is...I can think of a few Keith 'whoopsies' on stage, but those tended to be following his adventure with the coconut tree in 2007; Keith finished the Bigger Bang tour on a shitload of prescription meds, and those affected his playing worse than coke, smack or booze ever did. Keith seemed to maintain okay til 73. I love the 72 Stones tour, and I have that famous 73 bootleg from Brussels that's incendiary. But I also have a vid of the 75 LA show (which I kind of perversely like) and Keith is in trouble for sure. Check him trying to sing Happy (plenty of clips from LA 75 on youtube). He's really schwacked. Anyway, Keith's role in the band during the Taylor years - his heroin years basically - was being the "groove machine." It's sometimes easier to play a good simple groove when you're in a narcotic haze - if you don't push it too far. It's another thing entirely to play Achilles Last Stand or something like that. Then again, I think Jimmy knocked Achilles out of the park many times, as well as the other difficult songs in the later era. True, during his junkie years Keith tended to stick mainly to rhythm guitar (and the occasional Chuck Berry style lead on a tune like "Starfucker") but I think that tended to have more to do with having a true lead guitarist like Mick Taylor (who really started to overplay on stage by 1973, which was probably a byproduct of too much blow) than being smacked out. Again, note how a smacked out Keith Richards could play the intro to "Brown Sugar" in his sleep, whereas he blew it on a number of occasions on the Licks and Bigger Bang tours("Start Me Up" being another intro prone to trainwrecks some nights), smack free... I think the biggest problem with narcotic use in terms of guitar playing (apart from getting sick and/or dead) isn't the immediate effects, but the long term effects on your practice habits. When you become addicted, it starts to be the main thing in your life instead of your music...and you don't practice as much, and it starts to show. Think of the INSANE amount of practicing you'd have to do to pull off the long and very demanding 77 set list perfectly. If Jimmy was straight and did what was required, he'd probably have severe tendonitis anyway... Now that is a helluva good point, mielazul...it is worth remembering that the '77 tour was postponed for a month, and Page seemed almost proud of the fact that he didn't even touch a guitar during that time period. That kind of a lay off, of course it's going to affect yer chops, especially if you have to go out and play onstage three hours a night. As I've said many times the first few '77 shows almost seem like live rehearsals, and the lack of confidence -due to the lack of practice or rehearsal- is certainly reflected in the playing (IMO Zeppelin really didn't get their shit together until at least Atlanta.) Not taking advantage of the postponement and practicing a bit more was a really stupid and downright irresponsible -dare I say unprofessional- decision on Jimmy's part, though he was probably was more concerned about going out and scoring than playing a guitar at the time...oops. Talk about fucked up priorities...it almost reminds me of Keith Moon, who never touched the drums when The Who weren't touring or recording (!) and literally had to 'relearn' how to play the skins when The 'Oo regrouped for The Who By Numbers in 1975. By the time Who Are You rolled around in '78, Moonie was not merely a shadow of his former self playing-wise but infamously couldn't play the 5/4 time in "Music Must Change" (but managed to do so on the similarly 5/4 "Love Reign O'er Me" and "They Are All In Love" just a few years earlier)- Townshend, Daltrey and Entwhistle have all admitted that Moon would have been sacked as the Who's drummer had he lived due to the decline in his playing...why? Because booze and drugs were more important to him than keeping up his chops. Does that remind you of anyone, perchance???? I should correct myself, cuz Keith's heroin years went far past the Taylor years...but whatever. Not that far beyond the Mick Taylor era...Keith gave up smack once and for all after the '78 tour for Some Girls...but he didn't quit drinking and coke until after he fell out of the coconut tree in 2007, and only then it was on doctor's orders...I am pretty sure he still smokes de 'erb, though...if his memoir Life is anything to go by Keith Richards hasn't been truly 'clean and sober' since his art school days...it really is fucking amazing the dude is still alive, it's like he found the Fountain Of Youth or immortality in all those drugs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Again, compared to who? Jimmy Page from 1977 to 1980? Over the years I've heard just about every live recording of The Rolling Stones from 1969 on, and, to the best of my recollection, never, not once, does Keith fuck up as badly as Jimmy Page was known to do on occasion. We can cite a plethora of cringeworthy Page moments in live performance, you just can't say the same thing about Keith Richards, sorry. At least not during the height of their addictions, that is...I can think of a few Keith 'whoopsies' on stage, but those tended to be following his adventure with the coconut tree in 2007; Keith finished the Bigger Bang tour on a shitload of prescription meds, and those affected his playing worse than coke, smack or booze ever did. Give me the 77 Page over Richards any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mielazul Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 I really respect The Who but I'm not what you'd call a knowledgable fan. I did read that big Moon bio, and tried to read Townshend's book (I thought it was kind of lame, but it got rave reviews). But as far as later era-Moonie goes, I absolutely love that clip of them recording an alternate take of Who Are You in the studio. It's a fascinating document of creating a song, and Moon is awesome in that. And yeah, the practice thing. That's another thing I've always wanted to stress about the 77 tour, and about a musician's progress in general. I could get really lengthy, but I'll try not to. In a nutshell, it gets harder and harder to be PERFECT as the years go by when you're talking about constantly evolving artists like Led Zeppelin - and this is completely apart from the drug issues. I love totally love 69, but Jimmy HAD THAT KIND OF SHIT DOWN like an ace, even before Zep even started. And this is not knocking it at all, but most of it was at least RELATED to basic blues, no matter how brilliant of a twist Jimmy put on it. As the years went by, and their repetoire grew and grew, and became more and more ambitious (getting far away from any "comfort zone"), and more simply, encompassed a lot more songs, the task of preparing for tours must have become exponentially demanding. By 77, it I think it would have been an awesome undertaking for any musician. I think people should take that into account regarding '77...or even 75 for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mielazul Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Give me the 77 Page over Richards any day. Hell, I'd take the ARMS tour Jimmy over Keith...and again, I think Keith is cool, but it's not even the same species we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Give me the 77 Page over Richards any day. Same here, to be perfectly honest...but -and yer perfectly entitled to yer opinion, Geez- to make a blanket statement like "Keith Richards is a terrible live guitarist", clearly yer opinion stated as a fact, is just inaccurate. Especially with nothing to back up such a bold statement, you should provide some evidence for the claims. Sorry...I'm just sayin', is all...we can agree to disagree on Keith Richards' playing abilities. That's another thing I've always wanted to stress about the 77 tour, and about a musician's progress in general. I could get really lengthy, but I'll try not to. In a nutshell, it gets harder and harder to be PERFECT as the years go by when you're talking about constantly evolving artists like Led Zeppelin - and this is completely apart from the drug issues. I love totally love 69, but Jimmy HAD THAT KIND OF SHIT DOWN like an ace, even before Zep even started. And this is not knocking it at all, but most of it was at least RELATED to basic blues, no matter how brilliant of a twist Jimmy put on it. As the years went by, and their repetoire grew and grew, and became more and more ambitious (getting far away from any "comfort zone"), and more simply, encompassed a lot more songs, the task of preparing for tours must have become exponentially demanding. By 77, it I think it would have been an awesome undertaking for any musician. I think people should take that into account regarding '77...or even 75 for that matter. Again, an excellent point- age, and simply having more complex material and arrangements from the early days were definitely factors in the decline in Page's abilities onstage, no question. A simple blues like "You Shook Me" or "I Can't Quit You Baby" or even "Since I've Been Loving You" is one thing, an intricate piece like "Ten Years Gone" (as good a litmus test as any for how well Page is performing on a given '77 gig) or "Achilles Last Stand" is something completely different than a twelve bar blues. Perhaps the blues really is Jimmy Page's 'comfort zone'...that may at least partially explain why "In My Time Of Dying" tends to be one of the most consistently well performed songs in a given '77 show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mielazul Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Yeah, Nutrocker, I mean we're agreeing in a lot of ways today, but - and it seems you understand by now that I'm coming at this respectfully - but it seems like there's more of a negative twist when you pick up my comments and go forward with them. My whole point regarding practice, progress and Jimmy in 77, is that sometimes (and I mean sometimes) you're not hearing a DECLINE in his abilities at all...you're just hearing him trying to do something WAY FUCKING HARDER than he used to. I think regardless of one's opinion on the end result (which I think we both agree was sometimes awesome) listeners have to acknowledge that and give him credit for it. Speaking of addictions - Damn, I love this forum, but I'm starting to worry that I might have a PROBLEM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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