Lawsuit over Stairway to Heaven

[Balthazor]

1 hour ago, IpMan said:

I feel sorry for Randy California as it must have been hell growing up with those two succubi.

Succubi, there's a word that isn't used nearly enough. Especially given the vast number of people it could apply to.

[Balthazor]

4 hours ago, sixpense said:

Also, If you listen to the brief press conference by the sisters of Randy California, all they talked about was money. 

Do you have a link to that press conference? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

[zeplz71]

9 minutes ago, Balthazor said:

Do you have a link to that press conference? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

 

[Balthazor]

Thanks, but now I regret asking for it. That was seven minutes of my life wasted that I'll never get back.

[DogsoverLava]

4 hours ago, notfadeaway said:

I was inside the courtroom for part of the trial.  http://thelosangelesbeat.com/2016/06/lawyers-in-led-zeppelin-case-ramble-on-in-stairway-to-heaven-trial/

Did you happen to find a guy's wallet?

[JTM]

3 minutes ago, DogsoverLava said:

Did you happen to find a guy's wallet?

[Strider]

18 minutes ago, DogsoverLava said:

Did you happen to find a guy's wallet?

WTF? Give it a rest already.

[Strider]

On 6/23/2016 at 9:09 AM, Mercurious said:

Wait a minute.  You're the poster that suggested I was being naive last week for expressing similar doubts about any connection between "Fresh Garbage" and "Taurus".  I've never thought this suit was anything but frivolous and should have been tossed by Klausner before this massive waste of time of a trial, but we all know the jury is wondering why Page can't remember ever saying how much he liked Spirit, or why in the world he owns four or five Spirit records.  "Fresh Garbage" is not "Taurus",  but it's no a red herring.  if we're wondering what there is for the jury to talk about, this question of access via "Fresh Garbage" is certainly it -- but I'm far too biased in favor of Jimmy Page to be a proper devil's advocate.

1. I was playing devil's advocate in my earlier post. I have said all along that my personal view was that the lawsuit was bogus and that I wanted Led Zeppelin to prevail. But as certain things came to light in the trial, I would consider all sides to the argument.

2. It was not the connection between Fresh Garbage and Taurus that I said you were being naive about. Like I explained earlier, there are plenty of valid reasons that one could hear Fresh Garbage and not hear Taurus. No, what I said was naive was thinking there was no connection to someone in the band hearing Fresh Garbage and them playing it in concert. I know Dogslava had his plausible theory about them independently arriving at the riff in a jam without knowing it beforehand, but as testimony showed, it was Plant who heard Fresh Garbage on a compilation album.

Anyway, it's all kibbles and bits now. The favourable verdict by the jury has at last ended this nonsense.

Or at least until some ambulance chaser and the Doobie Brothers go after "Trampled Under Foot".

 

[Strider]

40 minutes ago, JTM said:

Thank you. My sentiments exactly.

[KellyGirl]

12 hours ago, Mercurious said:

Nahh, they didn't believe him (LA Times reported that) yet still ruled that the music he wrote was untouchable.  We all know he had access 

Jimbert lie?!  I don't buy it hehe.  

Of course the jury believes they had access.  *quietly under every biased Zep fan's breath we
believe it too*   That still doesn't  prove copyright infringement.  That's where the musical
experts playing  both songs intros and handing the jury the sheet music became crucial in
this case.   And I express the same as you.  How much creatively this would've impacted the
music industry if we had  8 idiots up there.  Anybody aspiring to be a musician would be
worried anything they believe is an original idea  is already taken and  grounds for infringement.  

Only reason I beat the dead horse  is because Malofiy being the dirty tampon
he is,  says the jury only hearing the experts versions of  'Taurus'  is unfair.  Huh?!?   I guess
Francis stepped out of the room when they  played exactly was on the registered sheet music for
both songs eh!

4 hours ago, IpMan said:

I believe these sisters were hoping for emotion to carry their futile case ala OJ, that is using the name of a dead musician and a charity to win favor with the courts and jury.

 

They lost and in return people's money,  time and energy were wasted on this case.  I'll  play
the role of gullible nit wit and give Randy's 2 sister's + Skidmore the benefit of the doubt on why
they spent Randy's $$ on this lawsuit,  but trying to move forward with an appeal I think is damn 
greedy.  They'd rather gamble at losing all of what's left in Randy's trust,  than actually donating the
remaining  to the charity they are "claiming"  this lawsuit was started for.  

       

Edited June 24, 2016 by KellyGirl

[KellyGirl]

2 hours ago, Balthazor said:

Thanks, but now I regret asking for it. That was seven minutes of my life wasted that I'll never get back.

You're not kidding .  The woman with the voice over didn't help it either.  She seemed
confused on who was who and who was with what group.  And I couldn't help but role my
eyes when she said she was waiting to speak with Jimmy and Robert.  As if they were going
to mosey out the front door and speak with a bunch of dumb reporters who can't even get
the names involved in the lawsuit right.  

I do wish Pamela Chelin could have gotten a soundbite from them.  Even though she reported
as neutral.  She definitely had Zep rose colored glasses on.....which I indeed liked  

Edited June 24, 2016 by KellyGirl

[Mercurious]

55 minutes ago, KellyGirl said:

Jimbert lie?!  I don't buy it hehe.  

Of course the jury believes they had access.  *quietly under every biased Zep fan's breath we
believe it too*   That still doesn't  prove copyright infringement.  

I really don't think he's being less than truthful about the music.  However, he is a genius in so many respects and I suspect he knows where every book and record he owns came from, including the Spirit record, which he probably listened to at some point, but maybe not.  "Taurus" just isn't a very interesting piece (it's so incomplete), and there was nothing to learn from "Fresh Garbage", based on what he's playing in those live shows. When he's quoting Jeff Beck in the "Bolero" section of HMMT, he doesn't even play the lick the same way Beck does.  Jimmy can't help but be original, it seems to me, which is one reason he's so fascinating.  And in the end, isn't this was what burns the Wolfe trust?  What Jimmy Page plays throughout the history of Zep just doesn't sound like it owes much of anything to any music that came before.  And cheers to that 

[mack]

31 minutes ago, Mercurious said:

I really don't think he's being less than truthful about the music.  However, he is a genius in so many respects and I suspect he knows where every book and record he owns came from, including the Spirit record, which he probably listened to at some point, but maybe not.  "Taurus" just isn't a very interesting piece (it's so incomplete), and there was nothing to learn from "Fresh Garbage", based on what he's playing in those live shows. When he's quoting Jeff Beck in the "Bolero" section of HMMT, he doesn't even play the lick the same way Beck does.  Jimmy can't help but be original, it seems to me, which is one reason he's so fascinating.  And in the end, isn't this was what burns the Wolfe trust?  What Jimmy Page plays throughout the history of Zep just doesn't sound like it owes much of anything to any music that came before.  And cheers to that 

+1

[IpMan]

6 hours ago, AnotherNewMember said:

They are giving the money away to charity and I you call them greedy??  That's what _I_ would call "some seriously sick and twisted logic"....

 

Yes indeed I am calling them greedy since that "charity," and I use that term loosely, appears to be quite fishy. You see, in the US anyone can establish a charity ala non-profit and per law, you only need to allocate 5% of all income to the actual charity while giving the remaining 95% to "administrative & advertising expenses." So be wary in the US when someone says charity, you need to really research them because most are bogus. A good example of this is United Way, I would not give them the sweat off my balls since less than 8% of all income and donations actually go toward the people this charity is supposed to aid. Just go by one of their regional offices sometime, if you see a car parked in the lot which is valued at less than $70,000, the plumber must have shown up.

Edited June 24, 2016 by IpMan

[JTM]

5 hours ago, Strider said:

Thank you. My sentiments exactly.

[DogsoverLava]

7 hours ago, JTM said:

Sorry Guys (and Strider) -- I just had to post this one last one in case you'd never heard of "Wallet Boy" and Chris Eliot's "Get a Life". from back in the day.

Edited June 25, 2016 by DogsoverLava
To say sorry

[AnotherNewMember]

8 hours ago, IpMan said:

Yes indeed I am calling them greedy since that "charity," and I use that term loosely, appears to be quite fishy. You see, in the US anyone can establish a charity ala non-profit and per law, you only need to allocate 5% of all income to the actual charity while giving the remaining 95% to "administrative & advertising expenses." So be wary in the US when someone says charity, you need to really research them because most are bogus. A good example of this is United Way, I would not give them the sweat off my balls since less than 8% of all income and donations actually go toward the people this charity is supposed to aid. Just go by one of their regional offices sometime, if you see a car parked in the lot which is valued at less than $70,000, the plumber must have shown up.

OK, now I understand you a bit better. But you say it (the Randy California trust) "appears to be quite fishy". What evidence do you have?

[lz2112]

I have enjoyed reading this thread both in the lead up and during the trial. Big props to those who kept us up to date.

The aftermath has baffled me like many here. The press is creating a myth that there was a myth that the song was created at Bron-Yr-Aur. I don't know any Zeppelin fan who ever thought that, the genesis of the song when Page brought it to Headley  has been widely known for a long time. The press has been using an obscure quote from JPJ in 72 to create a nonexistent myth. I guess it spices up the story, and journalists never let facts get in the way of a good story.

I really hated hearing Plant and Page emphatically saying they'd never seen Spirit or heard them. It just was not believable (those guys are musical sponges and absorb everything). In 68 and 69 they were listening to everything. I do believe Jonesy however. Even early interviews showed he wasn't really a fan of Rock and Roll, until he played with  Bonzo.   

I am so happy the verdict came out as it did, but I do believe part of the original seed of what would become Stairway first germinated with Taurus, there are just too many coincidences for me to think otherwise. That however does not make Stairway not a totally original work of art, I think it clearly is. What Randy California created was not something original, and if his interpretation of an oft repeated theme helped Jimmy Page create what could be the the Fifth Symphony of the 20th Century, kudos to him. But Jimmy is the one who created the masterpiece.

FWIW, I've listened to Zeppelin IV over and over since the verdict in celebration. I think two days is enough and I'll go back to my normal Zeppelin shuffle.

 

[JTM]

4 hours ago, DogsoverLava said:

Sorry Guys (and Strider) -- I just had to post this one last one in case you'd never heard of "Wallet Boy" and Chris Eliot's "Get a Life". from back in the day.

Thanks but life is too short to waste 22+ mins to see what shite you posted...

[Walter]

1 hour ago, JTM said:

Thanks but life is too short to waste 22+ mins to see what shite you posted...

 

You almost made me spit out my coffee when I read your comment.  Thanks for that! 

[Ddladner]

4 hours ago, lz2112 said:

I am so happy the verdict came out as it did, but I do believe part of the original seed of what would become Stairway first germinated with Taurus, there are just too many coincidences for me to think otherwise. That however does not make Stairway not a totally original work of art, I think it clearly is. What Randy California created was not something original, and if his interpretation of an oft repeated theme helped Jimmy Page create what could be the the Fifth Symphony of the 20th Century, kudos to him. But Jimmy is the one who created the masterpiece.

I agree that Jimmy and Robert are musical sponges, and in light of that, I don't understand why significance is placed on Taurus vs. the multitude of other songs that use the same chord progression and that Jimmy and Robert were most likely familiar with (being the musical sponges that they are). To me, it would't matter if Spirit had been one of their favorite bands and if Taurus had been one of Jimmy or Robert's favorite songs.  Those points would seem irrelevant once you know that this is a common chord progression (used for centuries) that nobody owns.  I realize that the rest of your post goes on to say that this seed does not mean that STH is not original, but I don't understand why Taurus stands out as a primary influence over all of the other songs.  

I sure hope this is the end of the litigation over STH, although I must say the trial was a bit entertaining, and I thank all of the forum members that kept this thread informative (and entertaining as well!).

[sixpense]

The attorney for the plaintiff was just on a CNN program called Smerconish (he is a lawyer) . He says that he had to fight the case with both hands behind his back and that the trial wasn't about money but credit, He insinuated that he would appeal the case on reversible error. The error being that they could not use the actual  Taurus recording to compare to Stairway To Heaven.

The host of the show thought that the songs sounded alike. I think that he needs to clean the wax out of his ears.

As you can see that an attorney is never going to turn down the chance for more billable hours. He is going to milk this for as long as he can. I find it interesting that he stated (outside the courthouse) that one of the reasons that Randy California didn't sue was because of the cost. Apparently there is an abundance of money available now?  

Edited June 25, 2016 by sixpense
spelling

[blindwillie127]

14 minutes ago, sixpense said:

The attorney for the plaintiff was just on a CNN program called Smerconish (he is a lawyer) . He says that he had to fight the case with both hands behind his back and that the trial wasn't about money but credit, He insinuated that he would appeal the case on reversible error. The error being that they could not use the actual  Taurus recording to compare to Stairway To Heaven.

The host of the show thought that the songs sounded alike. I thing that he needs to clean the wax out of his ears.

As you can see that an attorney is never going to turn down the chance for more billable hours. He is going to milk this for as long as he can. I find it interesting that he stated (outside the courthouse) that one of the reasons that Randy California didn't sue was because of the cost. Apparently there is an abundance of money available now?  

Anybody out there have a ball park figure on how much money might have spent by the plaintiff's to lose this case? Just wondering.

[IpMan]

9 hours ago, AnotherNewMember said:

OK, now I understand you a bit better. But you say it (the Randy California trust) "appears to be quite fishy". What evidence do you have?

They never specified exactly where the money would be going. You see a charity  does nothing in and of itself, it also needs to set up a foundation which does all the work and helps the community (feed the poor, youth at risk, Katrina victims, etc.) its charter references. The Randy California Trust never did that. Until they do that, they would be the equivalent of me setting up a charity / non-profit through the corporation commission, getting a coffee can, and knocking on doors asking for donations and telling people, "this charity is to help the disadvantaged in this very community," leaving out the small detail that it is me I am referencing as disadvantaged. Believe it or not, that is 100% legal in the US. After all, the US was founded on the principal of Caveat Emptor and is even more so today.

[IpMan]

If anything, Jimmy was influenced by Davey Graham's Cry Me A River since he was a big fan of Graham's and has cited him as influence numerous times. I assume he was very familiar with Cry Me A River and likely played it while doing session work. Being around classically trained musicians they probably told him that Graham did not really write that, referenced the classic works, and explained the lament bass and how prevalent it is in just about all forms of modern, western music.

That would be my guess and yes, I serious doubt any of the members of Zeppelin ever heard Taurus prior to STH. The song was an obscure track on an album no one within the band appears to have owned (Robert had a compilation album). According to Spirit's lead singer, the band never played Taurus live. So, in light of this info, the fact that the music industry was very singles driven at the time, and no one outside of hardcore Spirit fans, and the band, even heard this song it is absolutely no stretch to believe the Zep boys ever heard Taurus.

Edited June 25, 2016 by IpMan