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Rembetis   

I'm glad that the case has reached the stage that it has. Yes there have been issues with blatant 'lifting' in the past and in all those cases not once did the band refuse to reach out of court settlements. Yet in this case they decided to go to a federal court hearing which was to be decided upon by a jury of 8 lay-people who may not have had the technical knowledge of pulling these musical passages apart. In the end, and to their credit, the jury came back with a unanimous decision. No question in their minds. 
Now we have ongoing dialogue from the plaintiff's side with regards to the case. On the video interview he says at 1:44, that they were able to prove that Page & Plane has access to and heard the song, 'live'. My answer to that is absolute rubbish. That never happened. Finally, right at the end at 4:25 he says, we're going to fight to see this through to the end, we're not done! 
So the bun fight will continue, or will it?
On what grounds do we believe that they will appeal this, regardless of what has already been said by the plaintiff's lawyer?

There has been this ongoing complaint that the jury never heard the recorded version, yet as the case was structured, if the case was based copyright then the only thing that the case can use as a cornerstone is the original sheet music that was copyrighted at the time. There was this original notion that the plaintiffs wanted to play all these live recordings of STH etc., The whole thing was a smokescreen to try to confuse the jury. 

I'm not confident that this will go away but if it is to go on, what is the next step? Do they go to the Federal Court of Appeals and I'm sorry that I ask this as I am not from the USA. 
 

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Cool discussion :D 

After reading the pretrial docs. (thanks @LedZepNews) we knew Jimbert were going to
claim they never heard the song  'Taurus'   while writing 'Stairway To Heaven' ,  but with
old interviews where Jimmy is tooting  Spirit's  horn,   I saw a number of posts where
people were thinking  *Oh shit,  this  S O B  Malofiy will have a field day*   and
technically he did.   With both Jimmy and Robert  doing the whole  "I don't recall,  my
memory is fuzzy,  Spirit who,  Taurus whaaaat?  I didn't hear that song until 2014."  

it was a bit mucky on the stand.   The jury didn't  buy it.   Fortunately  that's a lot of  
what-ifs  hear-say and circumstantial  evidence that Malofiy was holding.  

Question:  Do members here believe the verdict could have played out differently if
Jimmy had said he listened to  'Taurus'   when it originally came out,  or if Plant said he
remembers meeting  Spirit  band members at a gig and having a great time?  I say no.  

The jury already believed they had heard and had access to the song.  They based their
decision on the the two pieces of  music not being similar enough to classify it as
infringement.  Not whether Jimmy Page  listened  to the song 'Taurus'  before hand,  and
not if Robert Plant was having a kick ass time with Spirit  band members in a pub.  That
right there should not matter.    

Francis Malofiy and Randy Wolfe's family should stop gambling away the rest of his
trust with all these legal bills.  They finally had a trial after 45+ years.  The jury made its 
decision on the two songs intros NOT.BEING.THE.SAME,  and with the Judge Klausner
telling them nobody owns guitar chords.  They smell so much of greed.

Edited by KellyGirl

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22 minutes ago, price.pittsburgh said:

Hello, I haven't been on ere in a while and I have voiced a lot of my points on a general music forum I'm  part of and should have thought to come here first, my bad for sure.

Here's a copy and paste of my own comment on that forum after finding out the verdict. 

I'm not gonna lie.
This win for Zeppelin was an emotional moment for me and so was this trial.
I'm almost glad now that it went to court, because it vindicates them, and brings forth a lot of facts about each song, as well as musical composition in general, for the Zep opponents to consider.
I don't believe everyone who sided with Spirit are Zep haters and these comments are not aimed at them.
But there are many, who had Zep lost this case, would have then attempted to trash the entire song, and pay no mind to the details of the case that favored Zeppelin.
I'm gonna be 46 in a couple of weeks.
Had Zeppelin lost their official claim to Stairway To Heaven, even just the intro, I would have aged 10 years.
I kept Googling "Stairway To Heaven" on my phone early in the day, knowing that I'm on the East Coast and I would have to consider West Coast time.
At about 130 pm East Coast time, about 1030 am West Coast time, I glanced again at my phone while sitting at the drive thru at the bank.
I saw on Google from a Billboard link "Led Zeppelin Wins 'Stairway To Heaven' Jury Trial"
A huge sense of both joy and relief came over my body and I felt emotion in my face.
No, I didn't cry, lol, but I swear, I probably could have made myself at that point.
I felt like they were attempting to take away a huge part of our youth and a huge part of Rock and Roll history.
I felt they had no right, over something so short and common, to go so hard after a song that means so much to so many, especially this many years later. 
Even though it was only about a short intro, that intro is so iconic, it would have still royally sucked had they lost :)

:console:  Aww  you're not alone.  price.pittsburgh.  I breathed a sigh of relief
when I read they had won too!!   I was so overjoyed for the band - especially
Jimmy as he was the one that seem to be facing the most ridiculing. The jury
got it right.  And yes
:lol: you should have ventured on here.  Many members
were linking up to date Tweets  from reporters who were right inside the court
room,  but hey it's over now!  Led Zeppelin won!!! :D 

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Yeah there should be nothing but celebrating. I broke some eggshells saying some Page/Plant testimony seemed

a bit odd. Odd, not nefarious lying or so on. I mean Jimmy said a few times that he hadn't heard Eddie Van Halen's

playing until 82'. Sounds ridiculous, but not when you consider the massive substance onslaught. Just like Plant's

funny  remark about his memory.

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Just my two cents on the whole access thing and whether or not Jimmy was fibbing on the stand. While there's no way of knowing one way or the other, I can totally believe Page's assertion. I'll use myself as an example. I have every Megadeth CD. Some I've listened to a thousand times and have virtually memorized every note on the album. Others I've listened to once or twice, and I have really no clue what songs are evrn on them. I've seen them play I think four times, but have no recollection of exactly what songs they played. Now, if I sat down and wrote a song that happened to sound exactly like a song on one of those CDs or that they played at one of those concerts, people could look at the situation and say hey, he's got all their albums, he's seen them play live, he's a big fan, so he's clearly ripped off the song. But that wouldn't be the case at all.

In light of that, I can totally buy what Page is saying. Especially given that he's got like 100 times as many albums as I do. It seems totally feasible that he could be a big fan of Spirit and own the album with Taurus on it, but have no recollection of the song whatsoever. Because someone could play me a song off some Megadeh CD like Supercollider or Thirteen, both of which are sitting on my shelf, and I'd say nope, never heard that song in my life. And it's not as if Taurus is the most gripping and memorable song in the first place.

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12 hours ago, DogsoverLava said:
  • That it is further established that Spirit did not play "Taurus" live until after STH was written - at least a decade after.

 

That is wrong, if one reads the docs posted at scribd it's clear that they included Taurus in their sets often in 1967, and probably (much) less frequently in 1968 and later.
What is interesting of course is if they played Taurus when they played the same venue  as Zeppelin, I don't think they managed to prove that.

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2 hours ago, Balthazor said:

Just my two cents on the whole access thing and whether or not Jimmy was fibbing on the stand. While there's no way of knowing one way or the other, I can totally believe Page's assertion. I'll use myself as an example. I have every Megadeth CD. Some I've listened to a thousand times and have virtually memorized every note on the album. Others I've listened to once or twice, and I have really no clue what songs are evrn on them. I've seen them play I think four times, but have no recollection of exactly what songs they played. Now, if I sat down and wrote a song that happened to sound exactly like a song on one of those CDs or that they played at one of those concerts, people could look at the situation and say hey, he's got all their albums, he's seen them play live, he's a big fan, so he's clearly ripped off the song. But that wouldn't be the case at all.

In light of that, I can totally buy what Page is saying. Especially given that he's got like 100 times as many albums as I do. It seems totally feasible that he could be a big fan of Spirit and own the album with Taurus on it, but have no recollection of the song whatsoever. Because someone could play me a song off some Megadeh CD like Supercollider or Thirteen, both of which are sitting on my shelf, and I'd say nope, never heard that song in my life. And it's not as if Taurus is the most gripping and memorable song in the first place.

Great point. I have CDs, DVDs, recordings on my DVR, and Books that I intend to listen to, watch or read someday.. Haven't done so yet.  Jimmy is a collecter .. He may never intend to do this .. He might. Having it in no way proves he heard it.

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zeplz71   

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mstork   
16 hours ago, DogsoverLava said:

Well -- I'll say again -- what fibbery? And how do you draw that conclusion?  In what way do you allow yourself to conclude that Zeppelin lied about anything here? What do you base that on? Are you disagreeing with what are now established facts?  You can't just make a statement about lies without compelling evidence thereof.  You shouldn't allow yourself the belief that there were lies without something compelling to support that belief.  This isn't religion where you just get to believe whatever you want because of "feels"... Doing so is akin to being one of the long standing guys who have repeated ad nauseum over the years that Zeppelin watched Spirit perform "Taurus" live night after night  --- turns out that was complete fiction - not only did they not really tour together, nor did Zeppelin ever really watch anyone who opened for them from the side of the stage, nor did Spirit ever play Taurus live ------- so give us something that we can either accept or argue against that has led you to believe there were lies from the Zeppelin camp.

Had a family dinner last night and my 27 year old nephew told me that Zep opened for Spirit for the first 5 years of their career (as if Zep opened for anyone for more than a few weeks)!  I told him this is the problem with the internet, and Malofiy and company took full advantage of this climate to give Spirit's case a credibility it didn't deserve based largely on "generally accepted falsehoods."

My question is this; does the legal notion of "access" mean that Page/Plant did access Taurus and were familiar with it, or does it mean the had the means to access it and could have done so?  I'll concede the latter but certainly not the former.

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What I think it means, is that even if they did hear it prior to writing STH, it still did not matter. The reason I say this is due to what the jury unanimously came to the verdict on: "The extrinsic values of STH are not substantially similar enough to Taurus to warrant copyright infringement". When I look up the meaning of "extrinsic" it pretty much sums it up: "The definition of extrinsic refers to a non-essential part, or to something that is not really  relevant to the heart of the matter". This jury has really impressed me! God bless em'.

Edited by blindwillie127

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2 hours ago, mstork said:

Had a family dinner last night and my 27 year old nephew told me that Zep opened for Spirit for the first 5 years of their career (as if Zep opened for anyone for more than a few weeks)!  I told him this is the problem with the internet, and Malofiy and company took full advantage of this climate to give Spirit's case a credibility it didn't deserve based largely on "generally accepted falsehoods."

My question is this; does the legal notion of "access" mean that Page/Plant did access Taurus and were familiar with it, or does it mean the had the means to access it and could have done so?  I'll concede the latter but certainly not the former.

I've seen (and corrected) lots of comments to the numerous stories posted online about the trial which say the same thing, that Zeppelin toured with Spirit. It'd be like saying that because Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin and The Who all played Woodstock that they toured together. It's as silly as all these stories that seem to be saying Aha! That whole Stairway was composed at Bron-Yr-Aur thing is a big fat lie! I chalk it up to the fact that there is so much mythology which surrounds this band that the average person can't really separate the myth from the reality.

As to the question of "access", I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure it means the latter, that it was possible within reason that they'd heard Taurus before writing Stairway. There's no way to prove whether or not they actually did. So for example, if Page owned no Spirit records, if Taurus was never known to be played on British radio, and if Zeppelin and Spirit had never crossed paths in any way, then one could say that Page didn't have access to Taurus. But the fact that Page did own Spirit records, did share a stage with them at a few shows, etc. does pretty much lead a reasonable person to conclude that he did have access. Still doesn't prove that he'd ever heard the song prior to writing Stairway, but he definitely could have.

I think the fact that the jury did find that they had access to the song but still sided with them is good as far as any possible appeal goes. Again, not a lawyer here, but if this jury decided Page & Co. didn't have access to Taurus, an appeals judge could look at that verdict compared to the facts of the case and think gee, this jury was nuts, which I think could make it more likely the judge would allow the appeal to move forward. But the fact that the jury did find that Page & Co. had access to the song but still sided with Zeppelin on the basis of a lack of substantial familiarity, it looks like the jury did their jobs correctly in that respect. and I think closes the door to certain avenues of appeal.

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5 hours ago, zeplz71 said:

 

LOL. But seriously, helping a few hundred children learn and appreciate music is a worthy cause. But then again, there's always this:

http://www.abctrust.org.uk/

Quote

Whilst working at Grãos de Luz, Jimena met Jimmy Page. They spoke about the problems facing the children of Brazil, and discussed doing a project 'some day'.
When they returned to settle in the UK, Jimena set up ABC Trust, with Jimmy as the founding patron.
ABC has since supported 22 projects and reached out to over 18,000 children and their families.

Seems to me if you care about the children, then a lot more real good would be done by keeping money in Jimmy's hands than transferring it to the Randy California Project. Just sayin'.

Edited by Balthazor

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There are excellent points being made here. For some perspective(correct me if wrong) I believe up until about 5-10 yrs

ago Zep gigs from 68'-70', many of the early ones in particular, there wasn't even certainty that the gigs even were

played. Even now there is some murkiness. So a lot of the stuff in the trial was murky, but even straight people

being asked minute details about a particularly non-spectacular band  like Spirit after 40 + yrs, the trial eventually

became ridiculous(as it already was). My comments about Jimmy are certainly prejudiced because some.of the stuff

he has said elsewhere. On the stand  I thought some answers were or could be challenged, but the 40+ yrs thing,

that shuts everything down.That's why it would  be totally unfair to conclude Page outright lying or trying to mislead.

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10 hours ago, AnotherNewMember said:

That is wrong, if one reads the docs posted at scribd it's clear that they included Taurus in their sets often in 1967, and probably (much) less frequently in 1968 and later.
What is interesting of course is if they played Taurus when they played the same venue  as Zeppelin, I don't think they managed to prove that.

How about this as a corrected point then:

  • It is NOT ALLEGED that Spirit played Taurus Live at any event or venue that Zeppelin attended.
  • That it seems to be a matter of record that at the events (just a few) that both bands presences can be verified, Spirit did not play "Taurus".

What's important here (as was later posted) is that it was suggested previously through the oral history or popular myth that Zeppelin watched Spirit perform "Taurus" night after night and that this was the circumstances that preceded this monumental theft.

I still think that there is no evidence of misrepresentation or deception on the part of Zeppelin in their testimony.

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2 hours ago, Balthazor said:

LOL. But seriously, helping a few hundred children learn and appreciate music is a worthy cause. But then again, there's always this:

http://www.abctrust.org.uk/

Seems to me if you care about the children, then a lot more real good would be done by keeping money in Jimmy's hands than transferring it to the Randy California Project. Just sayin'.

Jimmy is known as "Led Wallet"... very tight fisted with his money. I once read (and it may be bullshit) that Jimmy actually asked the band to pitch in some money for drinks/snacks at their first jam.  Not sure if that is myth or known truth but the fact that he's very very tight with his money is pretty well known.

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98% true "Led Wallet". However I have read that Jimmy has been somewhat lavish with girlfriends and wives. No Bentley's

or Rolls Royce's, but definetly high-end clothes/fashion spending sprees, vacations. He also tries to gather all his wives/

former wives flown out to England for Christmas, all kids, presents all around, all expenses paid. Still cheap, but I believe

anybody Jimmy has seriously loved, He doesn't forget.

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1 hour ago, DogsoverLava said:

How about this as a corrected point then:

  • It is NOT ALLEGED that Spirit played Taurus Live at any event or venue that Zeppelin attended.
  • That it seems to be a matter of record that at the events (just a few) that both bands presences can be verified, Spirit did not play "Taurus".

 

That's OK, maybe it should be "No one can remember if Spirit played Taurus Live at any event or venue that Zeppelin attended."
I haven't studied the docs at Scribd enough to be completely sure.

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1 hour ago, AnotherNewMember said:

That's OK, maybe it should be "No one can remember if Spirit played Taurus Live at any event or venue that Zeppelin attended."
I haven't studied the docs at Scribd enough to be completely sure.

I think, from what I've read, that the general consensus is that Taurus was not played live at any of the specific Zeppelin related dates - and that it is not officially alleged otherwise.

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Mithril46, I swear I read in S A J's  mystery thread  that Jimmy had  purchased a car for
Charlotte as a birthday gift at one time.  I don't remember the make and model,  but I'm
pretty sure the poster wasn't talking about Jimmy buying a beat up station wagon with the
wood paneling  or a Chevy Astro van.  I want to say it was a Rolls-Royce
:unsure: I could be soo
wrong  though.  

And yes I love how Jimmy says he brings in all his past lady loves, and they all get along for the
holiday season.  Very cool indeed!  Santa Jimmy. 
:santa:

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IpMan   
33 minutes ago, KellyGirl said:

Mithril46, I swear I read in S A J's  mystery thread  that Jimmy had  purchased a car for
Charlotte as a birthday gift at one time.  I don't remember the make and model,  but I'm
pretty sure the poster wasn't talking about Jimmy buying a beat up station wagon with the
wood paneling  or a Chevy Astro van.  I want to say it was a Rolls-Royce
:unsure: I could be soo
wrong  though.  

And yes I love how Jimmy says he brings in all his past lady loves, and they all get along for the
holiday season.  Very cool indeed!  Santa Jimmy. 
:santa:

So, does that mean Lori Maddox, Miss Pamela, and Bebe Buell are hanging out under Jimmy's mistletoe as well? Funky

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Strider   
1 hour ago, IpMan said:

So, does that mean Lori Maddox, Miss Pamela, and Bebe Buell are hanging out under Jimmy's mistletoe as well? Funky

Don't know about Bebe but Lori and Pamela hang out.

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Ha! :lol: Nah,  Pamela, Lori and Bebe would be trying to get a book deal out of it,  if they were
apart of it.  

"It all started when we found ourselves underneath Jimmy's mistletoe" - I'm With The Band...
A Christmas Version..

I'm sure once upon a time with those 3  in the mix  anything would have been possible,  but
'today'  I assume he means all the women he has kiddos with and probably his current
girlfriend Scarlett.   Well that's what I got from his interview   
^_^

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IpMan   
2 hours ago, KellyGirl said:

Ha! :lol: Nah,  Pamela, Lori and Bebe would be trying to get a book deal out of it,  if they were
apart of it.  

"It all started when we found ourselves underneath Jimmy's mistletoe" - I'm With The Band...
A Christmas Version..

I'm sure once upon a time with those 3  in the mix  anything would have been possible,  but
'today'  I assume he means all the women he has kiddos with and probably his current
girlfriend Scarlett.   Well that's what I got from his interview   
^_^

yes, I was just being a wee bit cheeky. I figure if Bebe Buell ever came within 100 ft of Lori Maddox the claws would come out. Not a pretty sight, Ouch.

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22 hours ago, DogsoverLava said:

Jimmy is known as "Led Wallet"... very tight fisted with his money. I once read (and it may be bullshit) that Jimmy actually asked the band to pitch in some money for drinks/snacks at their first jam.  Not sure if that is myth or known truth but the fact that he's very very tight with his money is pretty well known.

That may be, but I was talking more about the charities than Pages personal finances. Wolfe's sisters are out there crying as if losing this lawsuit is going to deny their great and wonderful charity all this money with which to help so many children. It came off to me like they were saying "these evil greedy rich rock stars are hurting the children!" I was just pointing out that Page has been involved with a children's charity which kinda makes the Randy California Project pale by comparison. Or, in short, that Randy's gorgon sisters can go stuff it. :)

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Daniel   
On 6/25/2016 at 9:24 PM, rm2551 said:

Short of an appeal and more bullshit, Spirit, and Taurus will slide back to obscurity with maybe the very occasional footnote about how once there was a case with one of their seldom heard songs sounding something like the start to Stairway.

Thing is, when you listen to them, they are just not the same. Generally, a million things are similar to bits of songs. Not much is the same.

Yep I agree.

 

AMC Spirit.jpg

Ford Taurus.jpg

Edited by Daniel

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