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30 minutes ago, Realperson said:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-unoriginal-originality-of-led-zeppelin

There's definitely been some bad rulings due to the broad, vague and confusing nature of the copyright laws as they pertain to music....LZ I think has a better case than Blurred Lines, for example...

This was a very good article written around the time of the first jury....

 

Yeah, I enjoy Alex Ross' contributions in the New Yorker and remember reading this piece. A good one to cut+paste for your friends who complain about Led Zeppelin being thieves.

I wonder if all these lawsuits are another bugaboo in the possibility of Robert and Jimmy and Jones playing together? I think it irks Robert Plant to the point that he doesn't want to talk about it. And a major way to make sure he doesn't have to talk about it is to not play with Jimmy and Jonesy.

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1 hour ago, Realperson said:

 

This Beato guy is great. Love his videos. Put him on the Zep defense team!

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30 minutes ago, Strider said:

This Beato guy is great. Love his videos. Put him on the Zep defense team!

Agree. Then, hopefully everyone can get on with more important things.

R😎👍

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Randy California is spinning in his grave. He knew the score...that's why he didn't bother with a lawsuit. These bozos besmirching Randy's name today will just keep appealing and appealing until they find a dopey jury that buys their bullshit.

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6 hours ago, Strider said:

Randy California is spinning in his grave. He knew the score...that's why he didn't bother with a lawsuit. These bozos besmirching Randy's name today will just keep appealing and appealing until they find a dopey jury that buys their bullshit.

It's well known that Randy California didn't pursue the lawsuit because of the legal cost. He wasn't sitting on a pile of money like Zeppelin and company.  Randy California stated in a number of interviews that he was well aware that the song was borrowed from Taurus. That's the reason that he's spinning in his grave over this.

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Posted (edited)
On 9/29/2018 at 5:18 AM, Strider said:

Such a bogus decision...and just in time to cast a pall over the 50th anniversary.  Most media outlets will take the lazy angle that Led Zeppelin stole all of their songs, reinforced by all the bullshit on the internet by people with an axe to grind.

Now everyone has to be dragged back to court and time and money wasted. The first jury was able to render the correct verdict. Given the decline in intelligence and musical intelligence in particular in the jury pool, the odds of getting a good jury two times in a row are slim.

The fact that Led Zeppelin's music has to be judged by a bunch of peons is about as ridiculous as the Senate sitting in judgement over Kavanaugh's sex life. We all know Senate and House Pages are some of the most sexually harrassed people on the planet.

You sound like someone with an axe to grind. So let us hear it...what is your take on the subject?

Being a fan of the band's music doesn't mean that I have to feel some sense of blind devotion towards the band. And that's about as much as I'm going to say about the situation.

Edited by mysticman560

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14 hours ago, mysticman560 said:

It's well known that Randy California didn't pursue the lawsuit because of the legal cost. He wasn't sitting on a pile of money like Zeppelin and company.  Randy California stated in a number of interviews that he was well aware that the song was borrowed from Taurus. That's the reason that he's spinning in his grave over this.

Any lawyer who felt the lawsuit had merit would have gladly taken the case pro bono just for the free publicity and higher profile the lawyer would receive...which would in turn boost his practice. I'm not buying the poor-house excuse.

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14 hours ago, mysticman560 said:

Being a fan of the band's music doesn't mean that I have to feel some sense of blind devotion towards the band. And that's about as much as I'm going to say about the situation.

I don't have blind devotion. I have mentioned the times I felt the band should have credited others. But just because they were neglectful on a few doesn't taint all of their songs. 

If you had read Alex Ross' article or watched Beato's video, you would understand the slippery-slope to doom that a judgement against Led Zeppelin in this case would create. Creativity is never clear-cut black-and-white. Picasso, Shakespeare, Bach. If we were to apply today's litigious standards to the past, no one would be able to escape being labelled a plagiarist...not even God.

So if you've got something of musical or legal value to say in defense of Spirit receiving credit for "Stairway to Heaven", by all means enlighten us. Don't hide behind some "fanboy" excuse.

Otherwise I will have to assume that you have nothing of real substance to say. You're just one of those "Led Zeppelin are thieves" people with no ability to parse the real from the fake.

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I personally think Jimmy Page should sue the hundreds of band that have ripped off his riffs. What goes around, comes around. This lawsuit is bullshit. I could name (at the very least) two hundred songs off the top of my head that have been nicked by various groups over the last 40 years, and if you ask me to, I will.

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17 hours ago, Strider said:

I don't have blind devotion. I have mentioned the times I felt the band should have credited others. But just because they were neglectful on a few doesn't taint all of their songs. 

If you had read Alex Ross' article or watched Beato's video, you would understand the slippery-slope to doom that a judgement against Led Zeppelin in this case would create. Creativity is never clear-cut black-and-white. Picasso, Shakespeare, Bach. If we were to apply today's litigious standards to the past, no one would be able to escape being labelled a plagiarist...not even God.

So if you've got something of musical or legal value to say in defense of Spirit receiving credit for "Stairway to Heaven", by all means enlighten us. Don't hide behind some "fanboy" excuse.

Otherwise I will have to assume that you have nothing of real substance to say. You're just one of those "Led Zeppelin are thieves" people with no ability to parse the real from the fake.

Spot on.

I've always felt Spirit's case was weak, but I confess I've had some ambivalence - I've sort of felt 75-25 in favor of Zeppelin. But after watching Beato's video, my ambivalence is gone. Others did somewhat similar videos when the case first went to trial, but Beato's is by far the most concise, the clearest, and has the most evidence packed into it. In fact, Zep should just call him as an expert witness and be done with it.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

Spot on.

I've always felt Spirit's case was weak, but I confess I've had some ambivalence - I've sort of felt 75-25 in favor of Zeppelin. But after watching Beato's video, my ambivalence is gone. Others did somewhat similar videos when the case first went to trial, but Beato's is by far the most concise, the clearest, and has the most evidence packed into it. In fact, Zep should just call him as an expert witness and be done with it.

Beatbo doesn't even get to the disputed section of Taurus, he stops the track as it get's to the acoustic guitar part.

Another thing there is NOT ONE genuine vesion of Taurus on YouTube, they are all fake, they have all been edited to remove the acoustic guitar section that is disputed and some other unrelated guitar part edited in I can't find one that matches the version I have.. I am going to repeat myself, I first heard Taurus over forty years ago and I have always thought that  Taurus and STH shared some SIMILARITES, they are NOT the SAME . 

Edited by JTM

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Posted (edited)

Just to look at things from a different angle (and to stay away from the deceased equine), what if someone played Taurus but added the ascending treble notes (ala Stairway)? Would Zep be able to sue them or could they say "The riff goes back for ages!"?

 

Edited by gibsonfan159

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1 hour ago, tmtomh said:

Spot on.

I've always felt Spirit's case was weak, but I confess I've had some ambivalence - I've sort of felt 75-25 in favor of Zeppelin. But after watching Beato's video, my ambivalence is gone. Others did somewhat similar videos when the case first went to trial, but Beato's is by far the most concise, the clearest, and has the most evidence packed into it. In fact, Zep should just call him as an expert witness and be done with it.

 I saw Rick Emmitt's video before Beato's and I have to say (don't know which vid was created first) but I felt he said the same exact thing, played the same exact songs only better. :blahblah:

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8 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Just to look at things from a different angle (and to stay away from the deceased equine), what if someone played Taurus but added the ascending treble notes (ala Stairway)? Would Zep be able to sue them or could they say "The riff goes back for ages!"?

 

*Crickets*

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, JTM said:

Beatbo doesn't even get to the disputed section of Taurus, he stops the track as it get's to the acoustic guitar part.

Another thing there is NOT ONE genuine vesion of Taurus on YouTube, they are all fake, they have all been edited to remove the acoustic guitar section that is disputed and some other unrelated guitar part edited in I can't find one that matches the version I have.. I am going to repeat myself, I first heard Taurus over forty years ago and I have always thought that  Taurus and STH shared some SIMILARITES, they are NOT the SAME . 

Maybe they are blocked in your country for I had no problem finding several authentic "Taurus" videos.

 

 

 

Edited by Strider

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7 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

*Crickets*

The answer is an extremely obvious yes, that is, Zeppelin would not have sued. My basis for this conclusion is that Dolly Parton wrote a song in 1974 (released in 75') called We Used To which reached #9 on the Country charts. The first 10 seconds are a virtual match to the beginning of STH and the arrangement of the song, including the pacing of the lyrics, is the same. Did Zeppelin sue Parton for this obvious lift. Nope. It was actually a pretty huge deal in 75' when Parton released the song and both Page & Plant were asked what they thought, Plant's response, " We love Dolly Parton, it's a great song."

Next

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13 minutes ago, IpMan said:

The answer is an extremely obvious yes, that is, Zeppelin would not have sued. My basis for this conclusion is that Dolly Parton wrote a song in 1974 (released in 75') called We Used To which reached #9 on the Country charts. The first 10 seconds are a virtual match to the beginning of STH and the arrangement of the song, including the pacing of the lyrics, is the same. Did Zeppelin sue Parton for this obvious lift. Nope. It was actually a pretty huge deal in 75' when Parton released the song and both Page & Plant were asked what they thought, Plant's response, " We love Dolly Parton, it's a great song."

Next

Wow, I never heard this tune before...the intro is basically the same arpeggio walk down. Much more literal than the Stairway/ Taurus comparison. 

Maybe the Spirit legal team will go after Dolly too! 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Strider said:

Maybe they are blocked in your country for I had no problem finding several authentic "Taurus" videos.

 

 

 

My mistake, all those videos are real, lesson to oneself, don't rely on crappy laptop speakers, think I'll get me coat......

Edited by JTM

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Posted (edited)

They'll be going after Mary Poppins next,,,, didnt JPJ mention that this was closer than Spirit....

 

Edited by Victor

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On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:14 AM, porgie66 said:

Wow, I never heard this tune before...the intro is basically the same arpeggio walk down. Much more literal than the Stairway/ Taurus comparison. 

Maybe the Spirit legal team will go after Dolly too! 

Are they claiming Dolly Parton wrote her song after hearing Taurus?  If not, these comparisons are irrelevant.

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2 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Are they claiming Dolly Parton wrote her song after hearing Taurus?  If not, these comparisons are irrelevant.

It was in response to my question, on whether or not Zep could sue for someone copying the Stairway riff verbatim.

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7 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

It was in response to my question, on whether or not Zep could sue for someone copying the Stairway riff verbatim. 

It's a question of how far you can go, isn't it. I'm fine with Stairway, and think the Taurus suit is nonsense. But then Jimmy didn't write the Stairway riff either, and nor did this guy!

 

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LED ZEPPELIN Urges Appeals Court To Reconsider Ruling In 'Stairway To Heaven' Copyright Case

November 1, 2018

 

According to Law360, LED ZEPPELIN's attorneys have asked the Ninth Circuit appeals court to reconsider its recent ruling in the "Stairway To Heaven" copyright lawsuit.

In late September, a federal appeals court decided unanimously to overturn a jury's decision that LED ZEPPELIN's 1971 classic was not a rip-off of the 1968 instrumental song "Taurus".

Michael Skidmore, the trustee of "Taurus" songwriter Randy "California" Wolfe's estate, had brought the claims more than four decades after "Stairway To Heaven" appeared on LED ZEPPELIN's untitled album, better known as "Led Zeppelin IV".

In the latest brief, filed on Friday (October 26), the group's representatives argue that by overturning the original judgement, the appeals court could "cause jurors to find infringement just because the same unprotected elements are present, upsetting the 'delicate balance'" between copyright protection and the freedom of music creators to employ common techniques and musical elements when composing music. The filing goes on to state that "if uncorrected," the Ninth Circuit's recent conclusion will "allow a jury to find infringement based on very different uses of public domain material" which, it then argues, "will cause widespread confusion in copyright cases in this circuit."

In June 2016, a Los Angeles jury deliberated for about five hours before deciding unanimously in favor of LED ZEPPELIN.

The verdict in the LED ZEPPELIN case came down within 15 minutes of the jury's request to re-listen to both SPIRIT's "Taurus" and "Stairway To Heaven". They wanted to hear a section of each song twice, alternating from one to the other. They decided that what they heard wasn't substantially similar enough to call it copyright infringement.

Skidmore appealed, and in September, a three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decided a new trial was needed because the judge who presided over a 2016 trial had given erroneous and prejudicial instructions to the jury.

The court said the judge erred by telling the jury that common musical elements, such as "descending chromatic scales, arpeggios or short sequences of three notes," were not protected by copyright. The court also said the jury should have been permitted to hear the album recording of "Taurus".

"Without a selection and arrangement instruction, the jury instructions severely undermined Skidmore's argument for extrinsic similarity, which is exactly what the jury found lacking,” wrote Circuit Judge Richard A. Paez, for the court.

Immediately following the June 2016 verdict, LED ZEPPELIN's Jimmy Page and Robert Plant released a statement saying that they were glad to see the issue resolved.

"We are grateful for the jury's conscientious service and pleased that it has ruled in our favor, putting to rest questions about the origins of 'Stairway To Heaven' and confirming what we have known for 45 years," they said. "We appreciate our fans' support, and look forward to putting this legal matter behind us."

Plaintiff's attorney Francis Malofiy later claimed he lost his case on a technicality, insisting that it was unfair the jury was unable to listen to the sound recording of "Taurus" and instead was limited to hearing an expert performance of the registered sheet music.

Malofiy received over a hundred sustained objections and "multiple admonishments" during the ZEPPELIN trial, with the band's publishing company Warner/Chappell Music filing documents asking the judge to order the plaintiffs to pay over $613,000 in costs for defending against the lawsuit.

 

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/led-zeppelin-urges-appeals-court-to-reconsider-ruling-in-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case/

 

 

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On 10/5/2018 at 4:31 AM, Crimson Avenger said:

It's a question of how far you can go, isn't it. I'm fine with Stairway, and think the Taurus suit is nonsense. But then Jimmy didn't write the Stairway riff either, and nor did this guy!

 

This sounds much more like Stairway then Taurus does. It's just for a second, but it starts to not just sound like but feel like Stairway. I bet Jimmy loves this song.

Edited by hummingbird69

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