Who says the 1973 MSG Shows are bad performances?

[Detigers09]

All I've heard about The Song Remains the Same is that it captures the band at a time when they were just going through the motions because it was the end of the tour. I just listened to all three shows over the past two days, and that is a ridiculous claim. The overall effect is some of greatest music they created over the entire American Tour. Jimmy is on, and JPJ's keyboard playing is amazing, especially on No Quarter. The July 28th Song Remains the Same (I think this is the one they used for the movie) is outstanding...I had no idea it was cut directly from the 28th for the film.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this here; I just thought I had to share my comments on these shows.

[Misty]

I have heard that Jimmy himself was in a sense unhappy with the MSG performances. I think the footage I have seen was fantastic. If Jimmy really was displeased, we can only hope that the chance of another go around at the Garden would be enticing for another reunion performance.

Steve A Jones...? Are you there? Can you comment on what might have been Jimmy's displeasure with the Garden performances...?

[mos6507]

All I've heard about The Song Remains the Same is that it captures the band at a time when they were just going through the motions because it was the end of the tour.

Everything is relative. Remember that by the time it came out, they had already performed Earl's Court which is commonly considered their live peak.

[mos6507]

If Jimmy really was displeased, we can only hope that the chance of another go around at the Garden would be enticing for another reunion performance.

What you see in the film isn't what actually transpired on those shows. Some creative editing and patching was done. So Jimmy is really judging the raw performances more than the finished product.

As far as doing MSG again, I don't think there would be any way for them to top the old shows if they only play a fixed 2-hour set. They are going to have to play a revolving setlist with fewer songs on each night and be able to draw D&C and NQ back out to 20-30 minutes. Then they can piece a 'virtual' long set back together for a DVD.

[Misty]

What you see in the film isn't what actually transpired on those shows. Some creative editing and patching was done. So Jimmy is really judging the raw performances more than the finished product.

As far as doing MSG again, I don't think there would be any way for them to top the old shows if they only play a fixed 2-hour set. They are going to have to play a revolving setlist with fewer songs on each night and be able to draw D&C and NQ back out to 20-30 minutes. Then they can piece a 'virtual' long set back together for a DVD.

an excellent point. guess i am grabbing for anything to believe they will return to the Garden. what is your honest take on further shows happening?

[Honeydripper]

well first off, Jimmy has always been one to downplay a performance........the first time I've ever heard him pat himself on the back is in his liner notes of HTWWW, saying this is the band at their peak. Just like Jimmy tried to pull the wool over our eyes by saying the We're Gonna Groove off Coda was from a soundcheck....again downplaying. If he thought the performances were so bad he would'nt have bothered to remaster TSRTS...........and this time around he actually called it something Zep fans have been yearning for forever.

This 73 MSG run is indeed a great moment in Zep's performance history. The peak in performance level? No, but all 4 cylinders were purring like a fine tuned engine and they seemed to all be collectively on the same page. My standouts are the NQ's from this run. What is also so fun about listening to the complete shows is that they are so close to the official release that we have all heard so many times (for me personally more than I could count!!) and even though each night is different, it still has a deja vu type feeling you get from snippets that wound up on the soundtrack or in the film. It's like the little brother of TSRTS.

The boot from the 28th "Out From The Movie" has been in my top 10 most played shows list for many years! I'll never tire of it.

[Honeydripper]

Everything is relative. Remember that by the time it came out, they had already performed Earl's Court which is commonly considered their live peak.

EC is great, but their peak was 3-4 yrs prior.........and most would agree, including Page.

[SteveAJones]

Steve A Jones...? Are you there? Can you comment on what might have been Jimmy's displeasure with the Garden performances...?

Well, he was disappointed with the filming, not so much the performances themselves. Just imagine how thrilled they must have been to have to put those clothes on more than a year later to reenact at Shepperton Studios what they'd done in New York.

[Misty]

Well, he was disappointed with the filming, not so much the performances themselves. Just imagine how thrilled they must have been to have to put those clothes on more than a year later to reenact at Shepperton Studios what they'd done in New York.

[/quote

I imagine that would suck, actually. Thanks for clarifying...you are a plethora of Zep info.

[solar]

Listen to San Diego or both L.A. shows from June or any of the European shows earlier in '73, and those three at MSG really weren't that great by comparison.

[greenman]

There certainly not bad performances but I wouldnt say there among best performances from 73 as the HTWWW shows are for 72. Perhaps it was the lenght of the tour or perhaps the fact they knew they were being recorded but for me they are a little lacking in energy. The soloing is some of the best ever but overall I'd take most of euro 73, the LA, Seattle, Detroit a few other gigs ahead of them from that year.

[Mattmc1973]

Although he says the performances were a bit tired, Luis Rey does state that Dazed & Confused from one of the nights (I forget which, maybe the first night?), was probably the best version ever recorded.

[PJD]

From my limited live collection they had better shows on every tour before and after. The Listen To This Eddy show from 77 is the best No Quarter I've heard. I love that one. The Texas Pop festival in 69 is ferocious. To me the TSRTS shows capture neither the magic or the fury of Zeppelin at their best.

Still better than other bands, not as good as they could be though.

Just my opinion, if you like them, more power to you.

[Honeydripper]

Although he says the performances were a bit tired, Luis Rey does state that Dazed & Confused from one of the nights (I forget which, maybe the first night?), was probably the best version ever recorded.

and I'd go as far as saying the solo from NQ is the best guitar work Page has ever played on stage in his entire career. Many guitarists agree.

[Mattmc1973]

^ Yeah, that's a pretty awesome solo. And getting back to Dazed & Confused, I could listen to the TSRTS version every day, to me it's probably Page's most furious and frenzied playing...just fast and savage.

[greenman]

Although he says the performances were a bit tired, Luis Rey does state that Dazed & Confused from one of the nights (I forget which, maybe the first night?), was probably the best version ever recorded.

The problem for me is that energy is the #1 ingredient in a great Zep show, not technical perfection. DAC might be largely mistake free but it feels lumbering to me compaired to say the insane versions from the european tour.

It was an even bigger problem considering the time period TSRTS was released in IMHO as it seemed to confirm alot of what the punks/media were saying about "rock dinosaurs" like Zep.

[solar]

^ Yeah, that's a pretty awesome solo. And getting back to Dazed & Confused, I could listen to the TSRTS version every day, to me it's probably Page's most furious and frenzied playing...just fast and savage.

No doubt that Dazed and No Quarter from TSRTS are FAMILIAR to us, having had those so readily available for so many years.

But clearly, Luis Rey did not have many of the recently unearthed shows like Paris '69 or the '75 trinity of NYC-St. Louis-Vancouver. I'll take NQ from Vancouver ANY DAY over all three of the MSG '73 shows and the mish-mash on TSRTS. He really needs to write an updated version of his book if he's still with us.

[Detigers09]

Listen to San Diego or both L.A. shows from June or any of the European shows earlier in '73, and those three at MSG really weren't that great by comparison.

I haven't heard the San Diego show, but yes, the Detroit show is better. And the Euro tour was by far better than any of the US tour shows. I was just saying that a lot of people say that the MSG shows capture the band at their worst during the tour...and that is simply not true.

[solar]

I haven't heard the San Diego show, but yes, the Detroit show is better. And the Euro tour was by far better than any of the US tour shows. I was just saying that a lot of people say that the MSG shows capture the band at their worst during the tour...and that is simply not true.

I certainly prefer the performances from the MSG shows to ones a lot of people like (Mobile, New Orleans). But I'd certainly put it toward the lower end of the shows. Hell, the Pittsburgh show just before the New York shows was pretty damn sizzling. And that portion of the Detroit soundboard from 7-13 is ridiculous in terms of sound quality and energy. But for the most part, as tight as the band was by the last leg of that tour, Plant's voice was pretty gravelly and sometimes the real deal breaker for me in terms of listening to it (including that Detroit show I just mentioned). That last show at the end of the first leg (6-3) in LA is still one of my all-time favorite performances. That whole string of dates at the end of that leg had to have been what got Grant thinking about filming that tour.

[Atlas Shrugged]

I love this thread! You guys have mentioned preferences in shows and have me curious...the NQ from Vancouver 75, the June 3rd show of 73.

It seems that the better shows of the 73 American tour were when Jones had the moustache!

[ally]

I think most of the shows in July 73 sounded ....lazy to say the least. And understandably so. They had basically toured for 4 years on the trot and were just running out of steam. Still some great song performances ..... would be great to hear a best of 73 Sorry but TSRTS is not it

[the-ocean87]

The MSG shows are the best shows i heard from 1973. But Bonzos Birthday party 31.05.1973 is good, too. Especially the stairway solo is great. I don't like the 1973 European tour that much, because they didn't play moby dick on it. I think, the best years of LZ have been form 1971 to 1973. After this, Jimmy was on drugs to much. Listen to the boots. Listen to Vancouver 1975. That isn't great. I think, jimmy was one day good, one day bad. Sometimes he plays very shitty ;-) Especially the 1980 Tour was so bad that i couldn't listen to a bootleg. Every evening Jimmy plays very very bad. A guy with a half year guitar lessons plays better than Jimmy 1980. thats my opinion. I haven't even heard Jones and Bonham playing bad. Just jimmy and Robert have been the "problem childs" of LZ. Roberts voice was bad between 1975 and 1979. 1980 it seems to get better. but then.....

[Detigers09]

I love this thread! You guys have mentioned preferences in shows and have me curious...the NQ from Vancouver 75, the June 3rd show of 73.

It seems that the better shows of the 73 American tour were when Jones had the moustache!

If you haven't heard that No Quarter from Vancouver, I highly suggest getting the show. That version of No Quarter just blows my mind every time I hear it.

[solar]

The MSG shows are the best shows i heard from 1973. But Bonzos Birthday party 31.05.1973 is good, too. Especially the stairway solo is great. I don't like the 1973 European tour that much, because they didn't play moby dick on it. I think, the best years of LZ have been form 1971 to 1973. After this, Jimmy was on drugs to much. Listen to the boots. Listen to Vancouver 1975. That isn't great. I think, jimmy was one day good, one day bad. Sometimes he plays very shitty ;-) Especially the 1980 Tour was so bad that i couldn't listen to a bootleg. Every evening Jimmy plays very very bad. A guy with a half year guitar lessons plays better than Jimmy 1980. thats my opinion. I haven't even heard Jones and Bonham playing bad. Just jimmy and Robert have been the "problem childs" of LZ. Roberts voice was bad between 1975 and 1979. 1980 it seems to get better. but then.....

You couldn't be more off-base on all of this IMO.

1. Europe 73 performance-wise is up there with the Japan '71 tour for consistency of performance and quality of sound and eclipses it some, too, because of the material from HOTH which was played

(though neither is anywhere as good as the entire year of '70).

2. Vancouver '75 is mindblowing, and much of the later portion of the '75 tour (from 2-12 on, after Page's hand and Plant's voice healed) is as good as the second leg of the '73 US tour. The jams on there exude the improv qualities of jazz, funk and swing that few shows can rival.

3. The '80 tour certainly had its low points, but if you can't or haven't listen to that Frankfurt show shows then you haven't listened to much of that tour. I'd say it was 40/60 split between good and bad shows. Page's tone was clearly changed in reaction to the punk movement and, up or down performance, it cuts through you.

4. Plant's voice at the second Copenhagen show was strong and that stands as one of the best in the 79-80 era.

[Killing Floor Blues]

The MSG shows are the best shows i heard from 1973. But Bonzos Birthday party 31.05.1973 is good, too. Especially the stairway solo is great. I don't like the 1973 European tour that much, because they didn't play moby dick on it. I think, the best years of LZ have been form 1971 to 1973. After this, Jimmy was on drugs to much. Listen to the boots. Listen to Vancouver 1975. That isn't great. I think, jimmy was one day good, one day bad. Sometimes he plays very shitty ;-) Especially the 1980 Tour was so bad that i couldn't listen to a bootleg. Every evening Jimmy plays very very bad. A guy with a half year guitar lessons plays better than Jimmy 1980. thats my opinion. I haven't even heard Jones and Bonham playing bad. Just jimmy and Robert have been the "problem childs" of LZ. Roberts voice was bad between 1975 and 1979. 1980 it seems to get better. but then.....

I actually think Europe 73 was better than the US tour. The US tour had some great moments, but the band is playing llights out in Europe. Jimmy is just blistering at times. Europe 73 is the peak of Dazed IMO.

In regards to Jimmy's playing post 73, I thought I remember reading something about him having tentonitis problems in his left hand/forearm. Can anyone confirm that? If thats true, I'd say that would effect his playing as much or even more than heroin use.

EDIT: Random 1980 comment. Listening to Jimmy's Stairway solo from 6-26, and (despite its length) its surprisingly intense, and seems to flow nicely.