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osoz

So is Jimmy Page a 'sloppy' player?

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I have said this before that my pet hate is his sloppy solo on Hot Dog,but I would rather have his solo than have someone like Yngwie Malmsteen or John Petrucci murder it.Don't get me wrong I am impressed by the precision and speed of their ilk but when I hear Page fluff a note or two I know he is only human and adds that bit of charm to his playing.Still I hope there is a different take of Hot Dog on the upcoming companion disc.

P.S.Hendrix ar Isle of Wight,worst case of sloppy playing but he was in a bad space.

Totally agree. From a guitarists point of view 'Hot Dog' is a complete car crash. Apart from the solo, he fumbles the riff at the beginning so badly you'd think he'd only been playing guitar for a few months.

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I think of JImmy's playing as just plain rude, I was running through the runs down to E5 and A5 from Nobody's Fault But Mine earlier. After I posted I tried it as written in most tabs/notation, no balls, played it as I know it is on the studio recording, plain rude, all because of one tiny little pull-off from a barred power chord to the open A on the way down never shown in the notation, but it totally transforms it and fills a mediocre empty space in the riff. Now I'm not saying it was analysed (got the spelling right that time), but I know playing it that way sounds so much better and so did Jimmy. That's what it is to me, that something extra that makes the ordinary become very very special. One could say it was a 'mistake' the note shouldn't be sounded but it sounds boring and lifeless without it.

It's been mentioned above about Jimmy's timing too, how many instructional videos on Youtube show the riff from Whole Lotta Love to beginners? How many of the 'instructors' play it right, not seen one yet, the chord is clearly pushed and the palm muted beats arrive in a little packet distinctly grouped together it's not evenly timed (1ena 2ena or what have you) as it is shown in all the music notation I've ever seen. It's that timing and the bend in the riff that just fills it with tension and makes it totally memorable and awesome.

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I really don't like the term "Sloppy" it has a negative vibe to it. He plays alternative sounds, tunings and so on. There really are not many "flash" guitar players I like.

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I'm not a guitarist so I can't comment on Jimmy's technical or non-technical approach to the guitar.

However I do have a good ear for music and I would categorize Jimmy's playing as "controlled chaos".

Not "Clapton-like" note perfect but not so out of control that the music is unrecognizable.

Sometimes he is (was) in a zone and just god-like incredible and other times he makes you grimace with embarrassment.

Fist raising power or head shaking yikes.

I honestly think his most "recent" genius was seen in the movie "It Might Get Loud". He was so in control and powerful

that even the Edge and Jack White were in awe.

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Perhaps Jimmy is to guitar playing what Ayrton Senna was to formula one: an unpredictable, unorthodox genius, always pushing and constantly on the edge, moments from victory or seconds away from complete failure, not technically amazing but with amazing feel, risk takers - and sometimes it came off and sometimes it didn't...but it didn't stop them from trying. Not sure why that comparison came into my my mind...but there you go. But yes, Jimmy is definitely a "sloppy player" - of that there is no dispute.

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Most guitar technicians = Boris Vallejo

Tight, precise and soulless......

boris_vallejo_89thorandkrungnir.jpg

Page = Frazetta

Loose, emotional and brimming with fury....

frank_frazetta_thedestroyer_mc.jpg

nice analogy!

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Perhaps Jimmy is to guitar playing what Ayrton Senna was to formula one: an unpredictable, unorthodox genius, always pushing and constantly on the edge, moments from victory or seconds away from complete failure, not technically amazing but with amazing feel, risk takers - and sometimes it came off and sometimes it didn't...but it didn't stop them from trying. Not sure why that comparison came into my my mind...but there you go. But yes, Jimmy is definitely a "sloppy player" - of that there is no dispute.

That is EXACTLY how I think of it!!!! Bode Miller is my fav skier to watch, there are plenty of skiers who are more technical but none are as great as Bode to watch because he just goes for it every time no matter how he is feeling or how the conditions are on the mountain. Sometimes he looks for his own line down the mountain and it goes down in the history books, and other times his guess of what might work misses out but who gives a fuck? It's exciting to watch. Ayrton Senna was my fav driver in F1 because like Bode Miller and Jimmy Page he did his own thing. I will take Jimmy Page over Steve Vai or Joe Satriannie every single time because Jimmy plays with his soul.

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Page's tragedy as a musician is that he could not escape the persona he created for himself in the mid-70s - the problem was, who would want to? But then the band ended, and he could not find a vehicle in which to place that persona. Jimmy Page was the person who never left Led Zep. Jones and Plant did not allow their musician impulse and creativity to be so restricted by a persona, hence the diversity of their solo careers. Page has always been reluctant to do anything musically which might be perceived as 'not very Jimmy Page' as defined by that persona. Hence the archivist role, and the attempts to play Zep songs again in various formats and bands.

By persona are you referring to his image or to his style of guitar playing?

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I'm not a guitarist so I can't comment on Jimmy's technical or non-technical approach to the guitar.

However I do have a good ear for music and I would categorize Jimmy's playing as "controlled chaos".

Not "Clapton-like" note perfect but not so out of control that the music is unrecognizable.

Sometimes he is (was) in a zone and just god-like incredible and other times he makes you grimace with embarrassment.

Fist raising power or head shaking yikes.

I honestly think his most "recent" genius was seen in the movie "It Might Get Loud". He was so in control and powerful

that even the Edge and Jack White were in awe.

That was a great moment in the movie.White with his loud and for me too 'in your face'take on the blues and The Edge with his three tons of effects, Page just armed with the vintage Les Paul and amp just stands up and just casually strums WLL.This is how its done kids!

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Most guitar technicians = Boris Vallejo

Tight, precise and soulless......boris_vallejo_89thorandkrungnir.jpg

Page = Frazetta

Loose, emotional and brimming with fury....frank_frazetta_thedestroyer_mc.jpg

Boris' women were'nt so bad on the eye......but totally unrealistic!

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Pretty amazingly I should think. Frank Zappa wouldn't have employed him unless he was an outstanding musician, and that encompasses far more than the widdly lead work that he's known for.

Well keep in mind Zappa first hired Vai as a transcriber, then realized, "Hey, this kid can really fuckin' play!" (Not that FZ was a slouch on the guitar himself!) I remember the one album where Vai is credited with something like "Impossible Guitar Solos"...I didn't think they were that impossible :lol: To give Steve Vai his due, he is probably the most "song oriented" of those kinds of players; I quite enjoyed his work on David Lee Roth's first couple of solo albums.

Totally agree. From a guitarists point of view 'Hot Dog' is a complete car crash. Apart from the solo, he fumbles the riff at the beginning so badly you'd think he'd only been playing guitar for a few months.

The guitar on "Hot Dog" is probably exhibit A for how Page's drug use not only impaired his playing but his judgment as a producer. I'd reckon that if just about anybody else was in the producer's chair on those sessions they'd be saying, "Hey, Jimmy, you fuckin' blew it, man- maybe you ought to try that one again." I've always wondered what Jones, Plant and Bonham were thinking when they heard the finished "Hot Dog" played back for the first time...it probably wasn't good...

Edited by Nutrocker

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That was a great moment in the movie.White with his loud and for me too 'in your face'take on the blues and The Edge with his three tons of effects, Page just armed with the vintage Les Paul and amp just stands up and just casually strums WLL.This is how its done kids!

That's such a moment in 'It might get loud', it's Jack White's expression that gets me, his face has that 'I've dreamed of this moment all my life' kind of look to it.

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Hot Dog was a song written about Texas and some girl named "Sally" Plant sings , "and I ain't never going to Texas anymore.

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Really great how some of you describe the emotion in his playing and it's there always and sometimes the sloppiness adds emotion and sometimes the emotion is so strong, it just makes it sound different, unique!

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I consider myself to be fairly observant, but I don't get all the hate for Hot Dog. I love the song and I don't hear the "issues" that keep getting referred to. Maybe I need to have a close listen again, but nothing will ever change how I feel about that masterful little ditty. It is amazing in its own right.

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I consider myself to be fairly observant, but I don't get all the hate for Hot Dog. I love the song and I don't hear the "issues" that keep getting referred to. Maybe I need to have a close listen again, but nothing will ever change how I feel about that masterful little ditty. It is amazing in its own right.

In my experience taking a step back and listening to something you know better than the back of your hand in a critical way is incredibly difficult. Considering how enamored you are with ITTOD as a whole I doubt that you'll be able to make that step and give it an honest and unbiased appraisal.

I'm not being dismissive of your love of it (each to their own), but I'm coming from the point of view of a guitarist. The riff at the beginning of Hot Dog is actually a bit of a dog to play, but Jimmy muffles and mis-picks badly at least twice and you can almost hear him thinking 'ohshitohshitohshitohshit' as he's playing it. It's one of only three Zep songs I'll actively skip if it plays, mostly because it makes me cringe with embarrassment for Page.

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I consider myself to be fairly observant, but I don't get all the hate for Hot Dog. I love the song and I don't hear the "issues" that keep getting referred to. Maybe I need to have a close listen again, but nothing will ever change how I feel about that masterful little ditty. It is amazing in its own right.

:goodpost:

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In my experience taking a step back and listening to something you know better than the back of your hand in a critical way is incredibly difficult. Considering how enamored you are with ITTOD as a whole I doubt that you'll be able to make that step and give it an honest and unbiased appraisal.

I'm not being dismissive of your love of it (each to their own), but I'm coming from the point of view of a guitarist. The riff at the beginning of Hot Dog is actually a bit of a dog to play, but Jimmy muffles and mis-picks badly at least twice and you can almost hear him thinking 'ohshitohshitohshitohshit' as he's playing it. It's one of only three Zep songs I'll actively skip if it plays, mostly because it makes me cringe with embarrassment for Page.

Mmmm, I have been playing for more than 30 years, some of those years professionally and I have played Hot Dog live and I tell you this...good luck. It is a tough song to play, the beginning and exiting riff is a bitch to nail, and if you don't do the pull off's just right forget it. In the studio version I hear one minor mistake in the intro riff and none in the outtro. In the live versions I have heard (both Copenhagen, 1st Kneb, and Vienna 80') he does a good job with it. The solo changes but except for a couple of minor flubs with the Knebworth version nails it. Now when I say nails it I am being subjective because the studio solo is a brilliant mess, just amazing and I remember an interview in 79' with Jimmy about the newly released ITTOD talking about Hot Dog. He specifically says the way the song is played and the solo in particular was done on purpose to give it a "frenzied, rockabilly feel." Maybe he was covering for his mistakes, maybe not but I have indeed disected this song and I feel it was executed perfectly and brilliantly. If I were in the studio as co-engineer I would have said, "fucking brilliant Jimmy, that sounded just like a train ready to fall off the tracks, two wheels in the air, two on the track and the car at a 45 degree angle on a curve yet barely sticking...brilliant!"

To each his own I guess.

Edited by IpMan

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Mmmm, I have been playing for more than 30 years, some of those years professionally and I have played Hot Dog live and I tell you this...good luck. It is a tough song to play, the beginning and exiting riff is a bitch to nail, and if you don't do the pull off's just right forget it. In the studio version I hear one minor mistake in the intro riff and none in the outtro. In the live versions I have heard (both Copenhagen, 1st Kneb, and Vienna 80') he does a good job with it. The solo changes but except for a couple of minor flubs with the Knebworth version nails it. Now when I say nails it I am being subjective because the studio solo is a brilliant mess, just amazing and I remember an interview in 79' with Jimmy about the newly released ITTOD talking about Hot Dog. He specifically says the way the song is played and the solo in particular was done on purpose to give it a "frenzied, rockabilly feel." Maybe he was covering for his mistakes, maybe not but I have indeed disected this song and I feel it was executed perfectly and brilliantly. If I were in the studio as co-engineer I would have said, "fucking brilliant Jimmy, that sounded just like a train ready to fall off the tracks, two wheels in the air, two on the track and the car at a 45 degree angle on a curve yet barely sticking...brilliant!"

To each his own I guess.

I said the intro was a dog (horrible) to play.... I've also been playing for more than 30 years.

On the studio version intro I hear a flub on the E that then slides down to C both times he plays it (little finger not fretting properly), open strings ringing that shouldn't be and there's a general sense of 'argh, this is difficult to play!'. If he was going for the train wreck sound he certainly achieved it...

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In my experience taking a step back and listening to something you know better than the back of your hand in a critical way is incredibly difficult. Considering how enamored you are with ITTOD as a whole I doubt that you'll be able to make that step and give it an honest and unbiased appraisal.

I'm not being dismissive of your love of it (each to their own), but I'm coming from the point of view of a guitarist. The riff at the beginning of Hot Dog is actually a bit of a dog to play, but Jimmy muffles and mis-picks badly at least twice and you can almost hear him thinking 'ohshitohshitohshitohshit' as he's playing it. It's one of only three Zep songs I'll actively skip if it plays, mostly because it makes me cringe with embarrassment for Page.

Maybe your right. I tend to be a bigger fan of Zeppelin's music than most, but that's how I roll. You know me well: I struggle with objectivity, being a smitten fanboy and all. I guess I'll just skip that re-listen and defer to your assessment of my abilities. Ignorance is bliss, and all that. Edited by The Dark Lord

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I said the intro was a dog (horrible) to play.... I've also been playing for more than 30 years.

On the studio version intro I hear a flub on the E that then slides down to C both times he plays it (little finger not fretting properly), open strings ringing that shouldn't be and there's a general sense of 'argh, this is difficult to play!'. If he was going for the train wreck sound he certainly achieved it...

Did you ever think maybe Jimmy wanted it that way? When I hear the song I get a barroom vibe of a slightly pissed off narrator essentially taking the story of Hey, Hey, What Can I Do and saying, 10 years later, how he got shit on again due to his own stupidity. The vibe the guitar gives the narrative is VERY important to the picture I believe they were trying to paint. One of the traits "later" Jimmy had / has that "early" Jimmy did not is feel for the song as a whole. Jimmy was one of the first hot lead guitarists to leave a solo out of a song because the song did not need it (Kashmir). In 1974 everyone else out there would have put a solo in there somewhere. Jimmy's ability to paint a picture with his arrangements is truly what makes him unique and I believe he was willing to do unorthodox structures in an effort to paint that picture. Jimmy schooled to be an artist, instead he became a sonic artist.

Prince once said i an interview, "Jimmy Page played in color, everyone else in black and white." Prince "gets" it.

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Mmmm, I have been playing for more than 30 years, some of those years professionally and I have played Hot Dog live and I tell you this...good luck. It is a tough song to play, the beginning and exiting riff is a bitch to nail, and if you don't do the pull off's just right forget it. In the studio version I hear one minor mistake in the intro riff and none in the outtro. In the live versions I have heard (both Copenhagen, 1st Kneb, and Vienna 80') he does a good job with it. The solo changes but except for a couple of minor flubs with the Knebworth version nails it. Now when I say nails it I am being subjective because the studio solo is a brilliant mess, just amazing and I remember an interview in 79' with Jimmy about the newly released ITTOD talking about Hot Dog. He specifically says the way the song is played and the solo in particular was done on purpose to give it a "frenzied, rockabilly feel." Maybe he was covering for his mistakes, maybe not but I have indeed disected this song and I feel it was executed perfectly and brilliantly. If I were in the studio as co-engineer I would have said, "fucking brilliant Jimmy, that sounded just like a train ready to fall off the tracks, two wheels in the air, two on the track and the car at a 45 degree angle on a curve yet barely sticking...brilliant!"

To each his own I guess.

Amen, but you clearly suffer from the same lack of objectivity as me.

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Maybe your right. I tend to be a bigger fan of Zeppelin's music than most, but that's how I roll. You know me well: I struggle with objectivity, being a smitten fanboy and all. I guess I'll just skip that re-listen and defer to your assessment of my abilities. Ignorance is bliss, and all that.

There's no need to be snide. I'm not calling you a smitten fanboy - If I was going to be that rude, I'd just come out and say it. Nor am I commenting on your listening abilities. I'm simply saying that when you know something so well it's incredibly hard to be objective about it, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone else.

I'm just saying what I hear - if you can't hear the same things as me then that's just one aspect of the wonderful subjectiveness of music that allows different people to get different things from what they hear.

Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't mean they're trying to be a dick, or that they think you're a dick.

Did you ever think maybe Jimmy wanted it that way? When I hear the song I get a barroom vibe of a slightly pissed off narrator essentially taking the story of Hey, Hey, What Can I Do and saying, 10 years later, how he got shit on again due to his own stupidity. The vibe the guitar gives the narrative is VERY important to the picture I believe they were trying to paint. One of the traits "later" Jimmy had / has that "early" Jimmy did not is feel for the song as a whole. Jimmy was one of the first hot lead guitarists to leave a solo out of a song because the song did not need it (Kashmir). In 1974 everyone else out there would have put a solo in there somewhere. Jimmy's ability to paint a picture with his arrangements is truly what makes him unique and I believe he was willing to do unorthodox structures in an effort to paint that picture. Jimmy schooled to be an artist, instead he became a sonic artist.

Prince once said i an interview, "Jimmy Page played in color, everyone else in black and white." Prince "gets" it.

I could agree with you if the rest of the arrangement was as scrappy, but JPJ & JB are metronomic and for me the vibe Jimmy brings clashes with what the rest of the band is doing. My opinion is that he's under-rehearsed.

The rest of what you say about him as a player I totally agree with.

Also totally agree with the Prince statement.

Edited by woz70

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There's no need to be snide. I'm not calling you a smitten fanboy - If I was going to be that rude, I'd just come out and say it. Nor am I commenting on your listening abilities. I'm simply saying that when you know something so well it's incredibly hard to be objective about it, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone else.

I'm just saying what I hear - if you can't hear the same things as me then that's just one aspect of the wonderful subjectiveness of music that allows different people to get different things from what they hear.

Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't mean they're trying to be dick, or that they think you're a dick.

Great, I'm glad to hear that you weren't trying to be condescending. I haven't played guitar for 35 years, but I have played Monopoly for that long......,at least. Anyway, I'm off to the "Jimmy has Pretty Hair" thread to learn some more stuff.

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Great, I'm glad to hear that you weren't trying to be condescending. I haven't played guitar for 35 years, but I have played Monopoly for that long......,at least. Anyway, I'm off to the "Jimmy has Pretty Hair" thread to learn some more stuff.

One thing you can be sure of with me is that there is nothing to read between the lines. I can't be doing with bitchiness or people being snide. There are plenty of people on here for whom English is a second language, so making myself as clear, readable and comprehensible as possible is very important, in my opinion.

I'm trying to give my insights and share my knowledge as somebody who's been involved in playing, writing, analysing and performing music in some form or other for about 38 years. If you want to throw a sulk about what I have to say because you don't agree with it then that's really up to you.

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