So is Jimmy Page a 'sloppy' player?

[Mr_K]

I would personally say the nuances you hear Jimmy Page play were picked up by his learning to play early on from recordings of other musicians. They form part of the feel of the pieces and are typical of blues and folk. I can give you many examples where the written music for Led Zeppelin sounds slightly lacking when played as written, but working with a recording it becomes possible to hear just that slightest pull-off from a note, say when changing position that isn't significant enough to be written down, but the piece sounds not quite right without it. It really isn't carelessness, it can take time to add that form of nuance to a piece and I'm sure many are totally deliberate to create colour or facilitate playing in one way or another. They tend to flow quite easily when the right and left hands are relaxed and the fingerings used by the original artist are replicated. They form the signatures or particular styles of course too.

It's always worth taking the time just to put on a recording and replicate what you hear now and then, there is much to be learnt from it and incorporation of nuances becomes second nature very quickly.

I'll just add also that replication of the nuances often gives an indication that one is playing the piece in the same way, some say you shouldn't bother but it really depends what one is attempting to achieve or learn at the time.

As a final edition to this post, It's all about how the music sounds, if a particular nuance works it was meant to be there!

Nice post! And I agree. It's all about the nuances. From Charlie Christian to Joe Pass, and Duane Allman (a guitarist who listened to jazz greats), the best made the most of coloring. I'm listening to them over because of their phrasing, their ability to get the most expression from often simple lines. Jimmy Page was a master of improvisation, often using similar patterns in new, exciting ways.

Thanks.

[Mr_K]

I have always considered Jimmy Page's guitar playing to be an art form.

Given that this thread is a discussion of his 'sloppiness' as a guitarist, the following quotes by famous Victorian Art critique John Ruskin, came to mind:

"All great art is the work of the whole living creature, body and soul and chiefly of the soul" -- The Stones of Venice I (1851)

"The picture which has the nobler and more numerous ideas, however awkwardly expressed, is a greater and better picture than that which has the less noble and less numerous ideas, however beautifully expressed" -- Modern Painters I (1843)

"Men were not intended to work with the accuracy of tools, to be precise and perfect in all their actions" -- The Stones of Venice II (1853)

Ruskin and rock. Nice!

I would add that the "whole living creature" includes Bonham, Jones, and Plant. The synergy between them made Page's solos a spotlight.

Artists need an outside, unique stimulus. Maybe Rembrandt was "sloppy" too, but his brush and palettes and models worked together to make him a classic.

I think Page's uneven excellence needs to be taken in context with the "steadiness" of his fellow musicians. His band put him on the rock pedestal.

Thanks.

[Mithril46]

The analogies with the art stuff are right on and really help distinguish Page from the hordes of other rock players. Even EVH said in

plainer terms that Page doesn't always execute things properly, but he is still a genius. That's also why it's sometimes frustrating

to try to explain that Page's musical vision is so vast that he is looking at the earth from the perspective of someone being on the moon.

As opposed to someone earthbound imagining how the earth looks from the moon. Well, whatever.

[kirchzep27]

All i know is that sugar mama riff is stuck in my head for 2 weeks now...

Zep were babies of 50s rock and distant granbabies of the blues. The virtuoso soloists came mostly after that initial main wave of guitar music in the 70s i guess and that music was what it was. These days music is so diverse, that theres much much more to think about, compare and evaluate what is what. Most artists these days seem to stay in a specific genre. Its cool that the variety happened without corporate radio and mtv too, much more grass roots, although its more of an issue for artists to make money these days.

Page ofcourse had his ups and downs back in the day. He bounced back with the firm though. That was a great band for him too, for my 2cents. If he went with that xyz band, he would have been held to that popular virtuoso level back then and that might not have been such a good category or whatever, for jimmy.

[Mithril46]

Well if Page had to solo over Steve Howe era-Yes there may have been trouble, but Midnight Moonlight with the Firm is pretty complex.

Both Chris Squire and Alan White later commented that the stuff that was done with Page inXYZ was considered a real project, not

just jamming. Page was very dismayed that Plant didn't come along, who said the music was too complicated.

[IpMan]

Well if Page had to solo over Steve Howe era-Yes there may have been trouble, but Midnight Moonlight with the Firm is pretty complex.

Both Chris Squire and Alan White later commented that the stuff that was done with Page inXYZ was considered a real project, not

just jamming. Page was very dismayed that Plant didn't come along, who said the music was too complicated.

Funny you should bring that up because I always felt Page & Howe, though very different players, could be very similar in a live setting. If you hear Howe's solos on Yessongs, compared to the 80's shredders, Howe makes quite a few mistakes. He too is an exiting player who is not afraid to go off in new directions (though no where near the improvisationist Page was) to add emotion and colour to his playing, even to the detriment of accuracy. At the height of his ability Page, Howe, and Blackmore were pretty equal in regard to technique though I would have to give the edge (in technique) to Blackmore, but the again Page & Howe were much more exciting players than Blackmore was.

Give & take I guess but if Page stuck with the XYZ project and they got a new singer, I think he would have pulled it off quite well by 85' if he was sober. TBH, Squire being quite the strong personality would have most likely given Page a forceful ultimatum in regard to substance abuse had the project developed.

[SteveAJones]

Some of the musical concepts explored with XYZ were later recorded and released by The Firm.

[Mithril46]

Well I thought Chris Squire would have been a better fit than Tony Franklin. The XYZ "Fortune Hunter" IMO kicks more ass than

Franklin's part, because despite all the prog-rock baggage, Squire can really crank when needed. And although Steve Howe can

definetly do the Page tight but loose thing, I have have never heard live stuff or seen him play anything but above-average.

Howe has never played remotely close to the steep decline that Page had from 77' on.

I agree that had the XYZ band gone on Squire may have confronted Page about drugs, but the article I read Squire said they both

we're partying heavily. Actually Page's playing on the tracks, solos included IMO wasn't half bad.

[kirchzep27]

Well if Page had to solo over Steve Howe era-Yes there may have been trouble, but Midnight Moonlight with the Firm is pretty complex.

Both Chris Squire and Alan White later commented that the stuff that was done with Page inXYZ was considered a real project, not

just jamming. Page was very dismayed that Plant didn't come along, who said the music was too complicated.

I could see john paul jones playing with yes, in some format, but not jimmy page, especially at that particular time. Page has too many styles and if anything i could see him in a country/bluegrass band before a prog band. Zep were best when just touching prog elements, to my ears, never diving too deep with prog, no quarter, carouselambra, tsrts...and adding things on top of that.

On robert plant not joining that band, at that time...it was the right desision i would say. Why even try to compete with what zep was? Plus with the firm and paul rodgers, it was so much more grounded sounding, while being a damn good rock band.

[Disco Duck]

I could see john paul jones playing with yes, in some format, but not jimmy page, especially at that particular time. Page has too many styles and if anything i could see him in a country/bluegrass band before a prog band. Zep were best when just touching prog elements, to my ears, never diving too deep with prog, no quarter, carouselambra, tsrts...and adding things on top of that.

On robert plant not joining that band, at that time...it was the right desision i would say. Why even try to compete with what zep was? Plus with the firm and paul rodgers, it was so much more grounded sounding, while being a damn good rock band.

OTOH, venturing into prog rock may have been a good move for Page at that time. Working in a new genre; particularly one that requires a high level of musical skill may have kept Page on his toes.

[Mithril46]

Well the thing with much prog-rock is that there is usually some very tight interplay between instruments, and though Zep certainly had

a few numbers requiring strict tightness(BD,Carouselambra, some of IMTOD,etc.)much of their timing had much more to do with R&B

and Soul. Zep was mainly about stretching the time, not playing exactly on the beat. Page could definetly play prog, but play

stuff like Close To The Edge or the really bizarre Relayer Yes stuff ??? This stuff is not just about technique, the timings are insane.

[SummerOfMySmiles]

Steve may be clean, but he is boring. After only a few listens he gets old real fast. Jimmy Page is 20 years older than Vai and is STILL far more widely known. I hope that gets my point through.

I see we agree

[kirchzep27]

OTOH, venturing into prog rock may have been a good move for Page at that time. Working in a new genre; particularly one that requires a high level of musical skill may have kept Page on his toes.

Maybe...and a good thought. He did dive into a high level of musicianship with dw2. Although i prefer what page could do with a seemingly simple riff like make or break and build a song like that...like w zep too. Idk if i were jimmy and decided to play just prog rock, i think i would be off the wagon after a few prog songs with yes. Page is much more about groove, ideas and adding complexities when needed, w song construction. Its much different than prog rock in that way, to me.

[intunenation]

Yep, a little bit sloppy at times. I remember when the first album came out and one of my friends in High School made that comment. BUT, in Totality of what we try to communicate to an audience, the rest of what Jimmy was in his prime more than makes up for it. Part of it in the early days was that I think his mind was moving faster than his technical or physical limitations would allow. I saw Zep in concert in Detroit everytime they were even in Detroit over the years. He only got better. After the death of Bonzo, that killed him I think. I mean, they were like family, He was Uncle Jimmy to Jason. He knew how much Bonzo missed being home when he was touring. In a way I think he felt responsible. I know about the booze and drugs but that unit, "Zep" was his life. And when he lost that, the wheels fell off. So a lot or most of the performances after Bonzo's death are really something less. Jimmy, in Total, was better sloppy than most guitarists I've ever heard. The riffs, the freakin' dynamics my God, the composition, the arrangement, the production and recording techniques. NO ONE comes close. I wish I could more sloppy that way. As a parting comment, there's a interview with Jimmy when he was about 19 years old. He had been playing for only 4.5 years and was already a session guitarist for 1.5 years. How many guitarists can say that. In session work, NO mistakes are allowed, or you wouldn't be seen again.

[juxtiphi]

Yep, a little bit sloppy at times. I remember when the first album came out and one of my friends in High School made that comment. BUT, in Totality of what we try to communicate to an audience, the rest of what Jimmy was in his prime more than makes up for it. Part of it in the early days was that I think his mind was moving faster than his technical or physical limitations would allow. I saw Zep in concert in Detroit everytime they were even in Detroit over the years. He only got better. After the death of Bonzo, that killed him I think. I mean, they were like family, He was Uncle Jimmy to Jason. He knew how much Bonzo missed being home when he was touring. In a way I think he felt responsible. I know about the booze and drugs but that unit, "Zep" was his life. And when he lost that, the wheels fell off. So a lot or most of the performances after Bonzo's death are really something less. Jimmy, in Total, was better sloppy than most guitarists I've ever heard. The riffs, the freakin' dynamics my God, the composition, the arrangement, the production and recording techniques. NO ONE comes close. I wish I could more sloppy that way. As a parting comment, there's a interview with Jimmy when he was about 19 years old. He had been playing for only 4.5 years and was already a session guitarist for 1.5 years. How many guitarists can say that. In session work, NO mistakes are allowed, or you wouldn't be seen again.

[Strider]

Funny you should bring that up because I always felt Page & Howe, though very different players, could be very similar in a live setting. If you hear Howe's solos on Yessongs, compared to the 80's shredders, Howe makes quite a few mistakes. He too is an exiting player who is not afraid to go off in new directions (though no where near the improvisationist Page was) to add emotion and colour to his playing, even to the detriment of accuracy. At the height of his ability Page, Howe, and Blackmore were pretty equal in regard to technique though I would have to give the edge (in technique) to Blackmore, but the again Page & Howe were much more exciting players than Blackmore was.

Give & take I guess but if Page stuck with the XYZ project and they got a new singer, I think he would have pulled it off quite well by 85' if he was sober. TBH, Squire being quite the strong personality would have most likely given Page a forceful ultimatum in regard to substance abuse had the project developed.

Thank you. I am so tired of the myth propagated by Guitar Player and its acolytes that Jimmy Page was too sloppy to be considered in Steve Howe's class. Yes children, Steve Howe did make mistakes and could flub a note or two in concert. In fact, when it comes to the musicians in Yes (and I am referring to the classic lineup of Anderson, Bruford, Howe, Squire, & Wakeman) Steve Howe was far down the list of what made Yes click. For me, it was first and foremost Chris Squire's bass and Wakeman's keyboards and mellotrons and Bruford's drumming. Then, it was Anderson's soaring choirboy vocals. Steve Howe's guitar came last. Yes, he was good...but there were any number of guitarists who could have played in Yes just as well.

[Little Robert Anthony II]

He really wasn't sloppy at all back in the 60s and first half of the 70s compared to his peers (at the time, it was much more about "feel" than technique, as opposed to the post-Van Halen era guitar slingers). However, as he got deeper into his drug addiction in the latter years of the band, his live play was often sloppy. I'd also say his guitar skills have devolved to a large extent over the years due to falling out of practice, getting older, etc. But there was definitely a time when he was one of the best rock guitarists amongst his peers, mainly the late 60s/early 70s. And from a writing perspective, his ability to create signature riffs, and his overall "feel", really he's unmatched. That's why he's my favorite guitarist even if he's not technically the best.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Little Robert Anthony II

[wrong-note-rod]

I'd love to be as sloppy as something like his performance at Offenberg.

As the 70s wore on, his playing did seem to degrade somewhat, but, on a good night, he was still a master.

"mistakes" are often more musical sounding that clinical accuracy.

[Badgeholder Still]

I'd love to be as sloppy as something like his performance at Offenberg.

As the 70s wore on, his playing did seem to degrade somewhat, but, on a good night, he was still a master.

"mistakes" are often more musical sounding that clinical accuracy.

Europe 73 is JP's career high point as a live guitarist. He was focused, creative, and with the band set the standard by which themselves and all rock bands are judged performance-wise. Once the band landed in America for the 73 tour and went Hollywood the performances were never the same. Entertaining the press, working on a movie, escalating drug use, and becoming celebrities all distracted the band and changed the on stage dynamic. LZ went on to other great things and have special moments but never again played like they did in Europe 1973.

You want to play like JP in Offenbach? It's a simple formula: skills + focus + inspiration + living in the moment. When he wasn't at the top of his game and considered sloppy, one or more of these cylinders wasn't firing due to some distraction. As it turns out, a distracted JP is still more interesting than many guitarists firing on all cylinders.

[juxtiphi]

Europe 73 is JP's career high point as a live guitarist. He was focused, creative, and with the band set the standard by which themselves and all rock bands are judged performance-wise. Once the band landed in America for the 73 tour and went Hollywood the performances were never the same. Entertaining the press, working on a movie, escalating drug use, and becoming celebrities all distracted the band and changed the on stage dynamic. LZ went on to other great things and have special moments but never again played like they did in Europe 1973.

You want to play like JP in Offenbach? It's a simple formula: skills + focus + inspiration + living in the moment. When he wasn't at the top of his game and considered sloppy, one or more of these cylinders wasn't firing due to some distraction. As it turns out, a distracted JP is still more interesting than many guitarists firing on all cylinders.

What he said!!

[Mithril46]

Europe 73' is my benchmark as well for total Page brilliance. Actually concerning the Howe connection, Page's playing on this segment of

the tour is at times just as complex as Howe's . And Offenbach has this furious energy particularly between Page and Bonham where

they would be trading fills with each other. Howe should still be noted as a legendary guitarist but Page at his best had no peer for

evoking monolithic power and delicate or raw emotion.

[ZepRon]

For me, I either have an emotional response to someone's music or I don't.

Jimmy's playing says something to me.

Steve Vai's doesn't.

Vai's technical ability and musicianship is utterly irrelevant to me, cos what he's playing just leaves me cold.

No big deal - that's just me.

Other guy's have the same emotional response to what Vai plays as I do to Jimmy.

Again, no big deal - that's them.

It's not a contest .

Is Jimmy sloppy?

Who cares.

Do you like it?

There you go, then.

Yeah, man, artistic differences ! And nobody really flaming anybody here, pretty incredible considering the topic. Either Steve is a good moderator and/or LZ fans are a very mature lot ;-)

Listen to what Gary Moore says right at the beginning of this duet with Albert King (then stick around for some incredible guitar playing).

[Sathington Willoughby]

Yeah, man, artistic differences ! And nobody really flaming anybody here, pretty incredible considering the topic. Either Steve is a good moderator and/or LZ fans are a very mature lot ;-)

Listen to what Gary Moore says right at the beginning of this duet with Albert King (then stick around for some incredible guitar playing).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh1xtCXHOrg

Steve is not a moderator, thank God.

[rain in the fool]

was going to try and say something deeper than what i will, but i guess its all been said by one of the first replys. you cant exactly play a song like whole lotta love with a 'lotta' accuracy and make it sound good. its one of those songs. and i guess that goes for a lot of led zep stuff. youve just gotta throw your pick around the strings.

[Stairway is NOT stolen]

There are only 2 songs zeppelin ever did that jimmy sounds Sloppy (to me, at least).

The solo to Hot Dog from ITTOD, and 'We're gonna groove' from CODA.