Which shows do we know were multitracked?

[Strider]

On 8/4/2018 at 8:59 PM, Sticks of Fire said:

It’s not so bad....I’ve seen way worse reviews where you’re like “we’re they actually at that show...”.  Lmfao!

Yeah, like Stephen Davis' entire "1975 Tour" sham of a book.

[IpMan]

2 hours ago, Strider said:

Yeah, like Stephen Davis' entire "1975 Tour" sham of a book.

Well...that show they played in Austin 75' was LEGENDARY! 

[Jukkin]

Lots of excellent audience tapes and soundboards out there that cover 68-80. Since those days remasters and remixes have been done to many tapes resulting in some great concerts being preserved. However, I have never understood why Europe 80 has so few decent recordings - Frankfurt? Zurich? Vienna? Rotterdam? And even they don't sound as good, to me,  as either of the Danish warm up nights nights. Other than those four which are not too bad, the rest are a bit meh even after Winston's worked his magic.  I would have thought that the band's comeback, even in a limited European tour would have got the hearts pumping with it's implications of business as usual before too long. Yet very few quality recordings exist. Always been puzzled by the seeming lack of interest from the fans.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Jukkin

[IpMan]

7 hours ago, Jukkin said:

Lots of excellent audience tapes and soundboards out there that cover 68-80. Since those days remasters and remixes have been done to many tapes resulting in some great concerts being preserved. However, I have never understood why Europe 80 has so few decent recordings - Frankfurt? Zurich? Vienna? Rotterdam? And even they don't sound as good, to me,  as either of the Danish warm up nights nights. Other than those four which are not too bad, the rest are a bit meh even after Winston's worked his magic.  I would have thought that the band's comeback, even in a limited European tour would have got the hearts pumping with it's implications of business as usual before too long. Yet very few quality recordings exist. Always been puzzled by the seeming lack of interest from the fans.

I hate to say this but it is likely because it was a European tour at a time when no one in Europe gave a shit about Zeppelin, the Who, the Stones, or any of the "old guard" bands. The Stones did not embark on a tour of Europe until 82' after punk had all but died over there. But 1980...hell no. The European music scene was completely different from the US scene at the time.

I venture the US leg of the tour would have been covered extensively and possibly a show or two multi-tracked. As it was when tickets were announced for the American dates they either immediately sold out (dates which tickets were sold) or would have due to insane demand. Zep could have easily played the mega-arenas if they wanted to on the US 80-81' tour but in Europe they couldn't even get arrested if they wanted to. The fact is, the majority of the audience at those European dates were American servicemen. I have a friend who attended both the Frankfurt and Munich gigs and he supported this fact. He said the shows were pretty much USO shows in all but name only, that's how much of the audience were US soldiers.

[Jukkin]

14 hours ago, IpMan said:

I hate to say this but it is likely because it was a European tour at a time when no one in Europe gave a shit about Zeppelin, the Who, the Stones, or any of the "old guard" bands. The Stones did not embark on a tour of Europe until 82' after punk had all but died over there. But 1980...hell no. The European music scene was completely different from the US scene at the time.

I venture the US leg of the tour would have been covered extensively and possibly a show or two multi-tracked. As it was when tickets were announced for the American dates they either immediately sold out (dates which tickets were sold) or would have due to insane demand. Zep could have easily played the mega-arenas if they wanted to on the US 80-81' tour but in Europe they couldn't even get arrested if they wanted to. The fact is, the majority of the audience at those European dates were American servicemen. I have a friend who attended both the Frankfurt and Munich gigs and he supported this fact. He said the shows were pretty much USO shows in all but name only, that's how much of the audience were US soldiers.

I never knew there was so much apathy towards them in Europe at that time - I remember how sick I'd get having to listen to New Wave and New Romantic music on (UK) radio and TV so perhaps it's not so surprising after all. I suppose after the European leg of the 1973 tour,  Europe was mostly out of the loop from then on. Yes, fair points lpMan, makes sense.

[dave2007]

15 hours ago, IpMan said:

The fact is, the majority of the audience at those European dates were American servicemen. I have a friend who attended both the Frankfurt and Munich gigs and he supported this fact. He said the shows were pretty much USO shows in all but name only, that's how much of the audience were US soldiers.

Sorry, have to disagree with this. It's not a "fact" at all.  There were a notable contingent of US service personnel at Frankfurt and maybe Munich  but even on those nights they were not the " majority" of the audience.   As for the other 10 or so dates it was definitely not the case  

[IpMan]

6 hours ago, dave2007 said:

Sorry, have to disagree with this. It's not a "fact" at all.  There were a notable contingent of US service personnel at Frankfurt and maybe Munich  but even on those nights they were not the " majority" of the audience.   As for the other 10 or so dates it was definitely not the case  

So, my friend who was at both shows is somehow wrong but you are correct? Did you attend either the Frankfurt or Munich shows? Did you attend any of the shows?

[dave2007]

4 hours ago, IpMan said:

So, my friend who was at both shows is somehow wrong but you are correct? Did you attend either the Frankfurt or Munich shows? Did you attend any of the shows?

Yes, your friend is wrong. The "majority" of the attendance at Frankfurt and Munich were not American service personnel. 

You are wrong saying it was a "fact" saying the whole tour was in the "majority" attended by American service personnel. 

I was at Rotterdam...attendance was between 10 and 15,000.....if the majority of that was US army personnel it would have been a whole different atmosphere and gig. If you think over half of that attendance was American service personnel then that is quite a troop movement from the base in Germany and the Russians would have gone to Defcon 1.  Joking aside, it only takes a few hundred "hollerin and yee haw" americans to vastly impove the atmosphere at a low key euro gig.

Dave Lewis is the best source for this. Have known him personally for over 35 years..he was on the tour with the band. The American personnel thing is acknowledged at Frankfurt  and maybe Munich  but not the whole tour. 

 

 

 

.  

[IpMan]

1 hour ago, dave2007 said:

Yes, your friend is wrong. The "majority" of the attendance at Frankfurt and Munich were not American service personnel. 

You are wrong saying it was a "fact" saying the whole tour was in the "majority" attended by American service personnel. 

I was at Rotterdam...attendance was between 10 and 15,000.....if the majority of that was US army personnel it would have been a whole different atmosphere and gig. If you think over half of that attendance was American service personnel then that is quite a troop movement from the base in Germany and the Russians would have gone to Defcon 1.  Joking aside, it only takes a few hundred "hollerin and yee haw" americans to vastly impove the atmosphere at a low key euro gig.

Dave Lewis is the best source for this. Have known him personally for over 35 years..he was on the tour with the band. The American personnel thing is acknowledged at Frankfurt  and maybe Munich  but not the whole tour. 

 

 

 

.  

You do realize Rotterdam is not in Germany, nor is it near any US bases. As only four dates of the European tour were outside of Germany (Brussels, Rotterdam, Zurich, & Vienna) it would make sense those dates would have a greater native population.

You know, I have no idea why you are getting so worked up over this, I was simply stating what a very reliable friend had told me. Plus, I have known other US servicemen who also attended some of the German gigs and they pretty much said the same thing. But hey, if it calms you down then fine, they are all completely wrong, delusional even and you who admittedly attended only the Rotterdam date are the ultimate source of factual information for tour dates you never attended. You mentioned Dave Lewis, so, how about you post a quote from him regarding the make up of the German audiences as I am sure he would know. Or, have him post here to confirm either way since you are such good friends. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong and will gladly do so. In the time being though, in an effort not to bruise your delicate ego, I defer to your expert opinion on this matter...having attended a single show and all.

[SymphonyX]

That's a bunch of total nonsense.  Servicemen/women did not make up 70% of the Zeppelin gigs.

Pictures or it never happened.

The site here showing picture of outside and none of them look like servicepeople

 

http://www.ledzeppelin.com/sites/g/files/g2000006376/f/201705/frankfurt80g_0.jpg

[SymphonyX]

According to this article.  Frankfurt is the worst area for service people from 1972-1985

Also insulting to compare a Zeppelin concert to a USO show.  At least Alcohol would have been served and Americans are crazy when they drink

 

U.S. soldiers and airmen stationed in Germany were repeatedly terrorist targets in the 1970s through the mid-1980s. Scores were wounded

https://www.stripes.com/news/baader-meinhof-gang-attacked-u-s-troops-bases-in-1970s-1980s-1.36617

[dave2007]

6 hours ago, IpMan said:

You do realize Rotterdam is not in Germany, nor is it near any US bases. As only four dates of the European tour were outside of Germany (Brussels, Rotterdam, Zurich, & Vienna) it would make sense those dates would have a greater native population.

You know, I have no idea why you are getting so worked up over this, I was simply stating what a very reliable friend had told me. Plus, I have known other US servicemen who also attended some of the German gigs and they pretty much said the same thing. But hey, if it calms you down then fine, they are all completely wrong, delusional even and you who admittedly attended only the Rotterdam date are the ultimate source of factual information for tour dates you never attended. You mentioned Dave Lewis, so, how about you post a quote from him regarding the make up of the German audiences as I am sure he would know. Or, have him post here to confirm either way since you are such good friends. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong and will gladly do so. In the time being though, in an effort not to bruise your delicate ego, I defer to your expert opinion on this matter...having attended a single show and all.

Am well aware of where Rotterdam is but are you ?  It is closer to some of the German cities and the US Army bases than they are to each other. 

eg. .Cologne to Rotterdam is 160 miles. Munich to Bremen is 465 miles.

As for the US base in Frankfurt...it is 285 miles from Rotterdam. It's also 246 miles from Munich...not that much difference. 

Look, I just disagreed that it was stated as "fact"  that the "majority" of the attendees on the Euro dates were US Service personnel. You are the one that got worked up about it and have the ;delicate ego'. 

 

[SymphonyX]

I don't deny there was a good chunk of military or their kids, but can't see more than 25-30%

Frankfurt was technically the West Capital, the 6th largest City and has #1 major international airport. 

[IpMan]

6 hours ago, dave2007 said:

Am well aware of where Rotterdam is but are you ?  It is closer to some of the German cities and the US Army bases than they are to each other. 

eg. .Cologne to Rotterdam is 160 miles. Munich to Bremen is 465 miles.

As for the US base in Frankfurt...it is 285 miles from Rotterdam. It's also 246 miles from Munich...not that much difference. 

Look, I just disagreed that it was stated as "fact"  that the "majority" of the attendees on the Euro dates were US Service personnel. You are the one that got worked up about it and have the ;delicate ego'. 

 

Thanks for the geography lesson, BTW, how far is it from London to Bruges? I hear that Bruges is a very calm place.

[IpMan]

8 hours ago, SymphonyX said:

That's a bunch of total nonsense.  Servicemen/women did not make up 70% of the Zeppelin gigs.

Pictures or it never happened.

The site here showing picture of outside and none of them look like servicepeople

 

http://www.ledzeppelin.com/sites/g/files/g2000006376/f/201705/frankfurt80g_0.jpg

By god man you are correct! I looked at that picture and not a single punter is in uniform, proof positive of your statement. Wow, I sure feel like a fool now. 

My friend was stationed in Germany at Boeblingen outside Stuttgart 79' - 82' (which is the same base I would be at six years later). He was quite the traveller and went all over Europe whenever he had leave. The late 70's and well into the 80's were a tough time for terrorism in West Germany, the Red Army Faction and Rz were particularly nasty. By the time I got there in 88' things had calmed down to a degree compared to the early 80's but the groups were still active, just not as much.

I really loved my time in Germany and Europe in general.

[Sticks of Fire]

The guy I got the Mannheim 1980 negatives from was a serviceman but I have to think the crowds weren’t all US soldiers.   Possibly a good chunk but I’d imagine tons of Europeans too 

[Strider]

This has been completely blown out of proportion. All you have to do is listen to the tapes of the 1980 tour. That is the sound and behaviour of a European crowd. At most the American military contingent might be 30-35%....maybe as much as 40% or more at Nürnberg, München, or Berlin.

The whole punk thing is being overstated, too. Germans, especially, have always loved their heavy metal. Whether it was Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple in the first wave or Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Scorpions, Accept, AC/DC in the NWOHM, any of those bands could tour the hockey/bicycle racing arenas of Germany and make a killing while even the most popular punk bands of the time would be lucky to fill a 500-seat club.

If the 1980 European tour doesn't seem as grand as what Americans were used to from a Led Zeppelin tour, that was the band's and Swan Song's fault. With proper marketing and promotion, they could have done a tour just as big as the Who and the Rolling Stones or even Iron Maiden's World Slavery Tour of 1984-85.

But clearly Led Zeppelin had no taste for that kind of tour at that time. By 1980 Led Zeppelin had not done a proper European tour since 1973. It wasn't that Europeans had moved on to punk...it was more that Europeans felt abandoned by Led Zeppelin as the perception was they only wanted to play in America.

That, coupled with Swan Song's anemic promotion, led to the public image of the 1980 European tour as being underwhelming...as being a mere warm-up for the 1980 American tour.

The European appetite for Led Zeppelin was always there. But, in a more cluttered media world and with the changes that the New Wave of bands (both punk and metal), it required a different approach from Swan Song than their usual nonchalance. This wasn't America in 1973, when the band could just announce a tour and it would sell out on word-of-mouth alone, with little to no advertising needed. European audiences in 1980, after a seven year absence, had to be enticed and coddled and prodded. Radio would have to be courted...singles released for the right market.

Swan Song just wasn't up to the task back then.

[Mook]

I was at the Munich gig in 1980 & conducted a survey of every attendee there & can confirm that 7,500 fans were US servicemen & 7,500 fans were Europeans so you're all wrong, it was 50/50.

[IpMan]

10 hours ago, Mook said:

I was at the Munich gig in 1980 & conducted a survey of every attendee there & can confirm that 7,500 fans were US servicemen & 7,500 fans were Europeans so you're all wrong, it was 50/50.

[jsj]

in 1980 I was 15 and an avid reader of all the UK music press; Sounds, Record Mirror, NME (was Melody Maker still going then?). there was no reporting of the tour, or if there was it was very sparse. I still have some press clippings from that time when I was a teenage geek, but have noting  from that tour. Maybe the band wanted it that way so they could use the tour as an opportunity to get road ready for the US again away from prying eyes, or maybe there just wasn't any interest from the press at the time

I remember buying Tight But Loose to find out what had happened and even as an impressionable youngster it looked to me as though it was pretty much over, in that the magic had gone and that they  were no longer the force they had been

[Xolo1974]

On 7/19/2018 at 12:52 PM, duckman said:

Those weren't recorded by the Zep road crew, but by Bill Graham or KSAN radio. Those are two track recordings by the way

I was listening to this on my bike with headphones on....so I assume that this is why we have the drums in the left channel? So it’s definitely not a multitrack? 

I’ve got the Dadgad remaster for this. He’s done a good job but it’s still a bit tinny. Any views on the definitive for this? 

I reckon it’s this that will get released...but I can’t see Page releasing As Long As I Have You. 

Wasn’t the performance recorded by the BBC in 71 two track? 

[duckman]

2 hours ago, Xolo1974 said:

I was listening to this on my bike with headphones on....so I assume that this is why we have the drums in the left channel? So it’s definitely not a multitrack? 

I’ve got the Dadgad remaster for this. He’s done a good job but it’s still a bit tinny. Any views on the definitive for this? 

I reckon it’s this that will get released...but I can’t see Page releasing As Long As I Have You. 

Wasn’t the performance recorded by the BBC in 71 two track? 

By 1971 the ol' Beeb employed slightly more sophisticated recoding units. I would wager four track 1/2"... taken into consideration the higher fidelity of the Paris Theatre recordings (especially the nineties re broadcast from Japan, featuring the less extreme stereo separation ).

If one of the legendary April Fillmore 69 shows is considered for the 5Oth anniversary release, than 'As Long As I Have You' should be included since it's one of the cornerstones of their Spring setlist (IMHO)

[Strider]

On 8/24/2018 at 11:38 PM, duckman said:

By 1971 the ol' Beeb employed slightly more sophisticated recoding units. I would wager four track 1/2"... taken into consideration the higher fidelity of the Paris Theatre recordings (especially the nineties re broadcast from Japan, featuring the less extreme stereo separation ).

If one of the legendary April Fillmore 69 shows is considered for the 5Oth anniversary release, than 'As Long As I Have You' should be included since it's one of the cornerstones of their Spring setlist (IMHO)

If Jimmy releases anything from early 1969 and doesn't include "As Long As I Have You" there will be riots.

[mysticman560]

2 hours ago, Strider said:

If Jimmy releases anything from early 1969 and doesn't include "As Long As I Have You" there will be riots.

We'll certainly take to the streets and protest if such sacrilege occurs! 😉

[hummingbird69]

7 hours ago, Strider said:

If Jimmy releases anything from early 1969 and doesn't include "As Long As I Have You" there will be riots.

I was motivatin'
Back in town
I saw a Cadillac sign
Sayin' "No Money Down"
So I eased my brakes
And I pulled in my ford
I gotta have that car
and go ridin down the road
Let me say it again ahha yeah 
let me tell you yeah yeah
When I was a little boy
I memba five years old
My mama told me son you gotta lotta 
lovin in the fold cause you 
gonna be a man you gonna be a man 
you gonna be a you gonna be you gonna  
b b b b b b b b b b b b
a Man