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Flares

Companion discs are rubbish

112 posts in this topic

On 03/12/2016 at 2:36 PM, Bong-Man said:

Now that it's been awhile, I still enjoy listening to the "Houses of the Holy" more than the others.  "The Rain Song" & TSRTS are sonically pleasing, and OTHAFA ain't too bad either.  The alternative disc seems to retain the flow of the original album compared to the others, and there's just enough subtle differences in the mixes to make it interesting.   It seems to get the biggest reaction from people who haven't heard the new reissues whenever I pop it on. "Going to California" & "Thank-you" without vocals are favorites too.   

I think the concept is quite simple.

remastered Album plus the same album but viewed from a different perspective.

the artwork says it all. Original album cover and then a sort of inversion of the colours for the second disc but in effect both discs share the same concept at their core. You couldn't have one without the other.

Perhaps we shouldn't consider the tracks individually so much as being a complete album.

imho I think what page has done here has added to and given further  colour and illustration to the core of each of these albums in a very considered and artistic way. I think what's been done is completely unique .  It also shows that he still has the eye and ear for it. 

Who knows he may have even made something this clever out of the very little remaining. Or there may be more concepts to come....

 

 

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Well it is what it is.  I really enjoy the guitar overdub mixes and other unreleased instrumentals.  Sometimes you just want to appreciate the music without any application of lyrics and the interpretation that Plant brought to the songs.  As I expressed on here before, I really enjoyed The Song Remains the Same instrumental as it was a song I never liked too much.  Just hearing the band play, I "hear" the song differently than Plant does and it's now a song I appreciate much more for Pages vision and development. 

It is what it is.  With all of the live stuff, soundboard mixes and multi-cd bootlegs, there is already plenty of material for a hardcore fan if they were looking to hear rare recordings including Zeppelin IV which I heard many years ago (and which many of us have heard I[m sure) when I went to a ZepFest of sorts and guys were basically just handing you tapes for free as they were just happy to see a younger fan base show interest in LZ.  

If memory serves me correctly, Page personally met and spoke to some of the more hardcore fans, collectors and yes, bootleggers in England to ask them if they had heard any of the stuff he had released.  He wanted to be sure it was 100% new and authentic from what was already out there.  He went so far, I am told, as having these people listen to the music after signing a waiver of sorts to allow them to hear the songs before release.

Funny how that all works eh?  Was a time when Peter Grant would send people out into the crowd and destroy bootleggers who were trying to record.  It famously happened in Vancouver, BC and it turned out to be government doing noise testing of the arena.  Oops.  Fast forward to 2000 and beyond and the band probably wished there was alot more stuff, especially quality video.  :lol::lol:

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On ‎05‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 8:43 PM, JAP said:

I think the concept is quite simple.

remastered Album plus the same album but viewed from a different perspective.

the artwork says it all. Original album cover and then a sort of inversion of the colours for the second disc but in effect both discs share the same concept at their core. You couldn't have one without the other.

Perhaps we shouldn't consider the tracks individually so much as being a complete album.

imho I think what page has done here has added to and given further  colour and illustration to the core of each of these albums in a very considered and artistic way. I think what's been done is completely unique .  It also shows that he still has the eye and ear for it. 

Who knows he may have even made something this clever out of the very little remaining. Or there may be more concepts to come....

Yeah I do tend to agree, I think there not really intended to be "interesting rarities" so much as alternate albums which I think does explain why a lot of stuff was held back for the Coda release which was obviously always intended to be more of the former.

I do actually find myself enjoying the Presense bonus disk beyond 10 Ribs/Pod quite a bit dispite it being very similar to the stuff on the original album, the less echoey rougher sound  does I think work well with the material.

Edited by greenman

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22 hours ago, greenman said:

Yeah I do tend to agree, I think there not really intended to be "interesting rarities" so much as alternate albums which I think does explain why a lot of stuff was held back for the Coda release which was obviously always intended to be more of the former.

I do actually find myself enjoying the Presense bonus disk beyond 10 Ribs/Pod quite a bit dispite it being very similar to the stuff on the original album, the less echoey rougher sound  does I think work well with the material.

I have enjoyed most of the companion discs,  Led Zeppelin seemed to have their songs nailed down before they went near the studio.

Rather than that " I've got  an idea, let's try to bring in drums"  work in progress type of album.

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I'm amazed how many people have actually defended the companion disks here! While I agree that they are not altogether rubbish. There are a bit lacking. I mean some of the songs have almost no difference between them and the ones that made the original albums. But that being said, the bonus concert on the first album is amazing and Coda is packed with goodies. Plus, the packaging is probably the best of any reissues by any artist yet. I am amazed though that the extended version of All My Love didn't make the In Through the Outdoor companion disc. I thought it was a dead cert that it would be on there.

Led Zeppelin aren't the only act to do this with their reissues, though. Whitesnake's reissues from 2007 have some really poor extras and the Rainbow deluxe edition of Down to Earth is laughable. I guess what it boils down to really is what the listener wants from a reissue. For me it has always been the bonus tracks, for others it's better sound quality.

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Some people think they are rubbish, But want to make sure they have them all in their collection. I am missing the In through the outdoor one tbh.

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16 hours ago, poortom88 said:

I'm amazed how many people have actually defended the companion disks here! While I agree that they are not altogether rubbish. There are a bit lacking. I mean some of the songs have almost no difference between them and the ones that made the original albums. But that being said, the bonus concert on the first album is amazing and Coda is packed with goodies. Plus, the packaging is probably the best of any reissues by any artist yet. I am amazed though that the extended version of All My Love didn't make the In Through the Outdoor companion disc. I thought it was a dead cert that it would be on there.

Led Zeppelin aren't the only act to do this with their reissues, though. Whitesnake's reissues from 2007 have some really poor extras and the Rainbow deluxe edition of Down to Earth is laughable. I guess what it boils down to really is what the listener wants from a reissue. For me it has always been the bonus tracks, for others it's better sound quality.

I think that is quite a good situation to end up in though as the majority of the material the less hardcore fan might want to hear is on the LZ 1 and Coda bonuses disks rather than forcing them to buy all the albums for 2-3 tracks on each.

Its hard to know for sure what to think of course before we know Page's long term plans, if this was it for extra Zep then stuff like say an extended NQ from Earls Court really should have been included but if we see an extended release of those concerts then it makes much more sense not to.

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if every track on each companion audio disk was a new "previously unreleased" song, then would it be companion audio to the original,  or would it be a bonus disk or separate album ?

 

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On ‎30‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:53 AM, greenman said:

I think that is quite a good situation to end up in though as the majority of the material the less hardcore fan might want to hear is on the LZ 1 and Coda bonuses disks rather than forcing them to buy all the albums for 2-3 tracks on each.

Its hard to know for sure what to think of course before we know Page's long term plans, if this was it for extra Zep then stuff like say an extended NQ from Earls Court really should have been included but if we see an extended release of those concerts then it makes much more sense not to.

You have a good point. I would like to see the release of a later concert like something from the 1977 North American tour. They were on fire during that tour and I know for a fact that decent audio exists of at least three concerts from that period. Also it would be nice to hear something from the 1980 Europe tour. There's a soundboard recording of a concert in Berlin and it's actually a good gig.

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21 hours ago, poortom88 said:

You have a good point. I would like to see the release of a later concert like something from the 1977 North American tour. They were on fire during that tour and I know for a fact that decent audio exists of at least three concerts from that period. Also it would be nice to hear something from the 1980 Europe tour. There's a soundboard recording of a concert in Berlin and it's actually a good gig.

Besides the odd song where Page actually remembered how to play the guitar, that 1977 tour was not the bands finest hour. I mean how dull was it that someone can make a guitar sound like a cat wailing for what seems like an eternity is beyond me. Of all the tours and shows he could use I bet it wouldn't be one from that tour. 

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, chillumpuffer said:

Besides the odd song where Page actually remembered how to play the guitar, that 1977 tour was not the bands finest hour. I mean how dull was it that someone can make a guitar sound like a cat wailing for what seems like an eternity is beyond me. Of all the tours and shows he could use I bet it wouldn't be one from that tour. 

Very true , most 77 shows would require major fixing. IMO, 77's best feature was the setlist. Every other aspect of the bands performances were inferior to previous tours. Except for the ever stalwart Jones. The more I listen to '77 shows, the less I want to listen again. 

Edited by porgie66

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Posted (edited)

U know there r probably 100 posts from me agreeing that bonus discs r rubbish not now with no hype. Rebuying and relisteningb I do like them and love 3 and coda .  I don't have bootlegs but feel these r interesting alternate looks at the albums I think the first time around I did not get the concept.

Edited by ksgemini

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Posted (edited)

I have to agree with the OP.

Okay, maybe they are not total rubbish in every sense of the word.  For the first timer, buying these re-issues might  be preferable to buying the early CD editions of Led Zeppelin's albums.  

But there is very little that compels me to buy them.  I have half of the albums in this 'deluxe re-issue' format or whatever the heck they call it.  And NONE of those deluxe re-issues have anything that make me want to get all the re-issues.  I simply do not need them.

Edited by irondirigible

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Posted (edited)

Every major artist seems to do this "re-issue" thing.  And the ones that have not yet done it probably will do it one day.  Its just a ploy really.  Another trick, one that I think is even more underhanded, is for bands to release a "Greatest Hits" album and throw on one or two 'previously unreleased' tracks or maybe a live track.  This compels the long-time, hardcore fan to buy it just to get these tracks.  And I find this particularly underhanded because it's preying upon the bands biggest fans.  Its just wrong.

As a big fan of all the major rock n roll bands of the 60s and 70s, I have found that about 90% of the time there is a good reason why tracks were not released in their time. Its because they simply weren't that good.  If they were really good, they would have been on the album.  Yes, once in a while there is a real gem that somehow surfaces, but this is rare.

What I do hope we get in the future from Zeppelin is what Stones fans (of which I am one) have enjoyed in the "from the vaults" series of concert albums.  Surely there's lots of this in the vaults (figuratively speaking - or literally?) for Led Zeppelin.

Edited by irondirigible

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Again, nothing but a money grab and a way to keep Zeppelin, Incorportated alive amnd in the public eye.  Page is no dummy.  He has been promoting Zeppelin in a clever manner over the years.

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re-issuing items from a catalog also resets the copyright on the item(s), persons and entities that own publishing rights and copyrights receive huge benefits from re-releases aside from the momentary spike in sales.  Public Domain is a bad place for a catalog to go.

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Posted (edited)

On 6/4/2017 at 9:44 PM, Box of Jimmy's said:

Again, nothing but a money grab and a way to keep Zeppelin, Incorportated alive amnd in the public eye.  Page is no dummy.  He has been promoting Zeppelin in a clever manner over the years.

I disagree. Yes, the casual fan is not going to be interested in many of the companion tracks. And I agree some tracks are fairly pointless, providing very minor variations (e.g. Rock and Roll, Kashmir). And I agree that the companion-disc versions of Fool in the Rain, All My Love, and I'm Gonna Crawl on ITTOD sound terrible and it's an embarrassment that Page included them.

But having revisited all 67 of the companion tracks (excluding the live Paris show companion to Zep I), my argument is that about half of them - just over 30 - are very worthwhile.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that they could have released the best companion tracks on a single 3-CD set - and if they had, I am confident many naysayers would've changed their tune. But even so, these tracks are available inexpensively on CD - when they came out the Deluxe CDs could be had for as little as $1 or $2 more than the album-only CDs. Not to mention the companion tracks always have been available a la carte for $1.29 or so from the online music download sites. So I don't think how they organized them or priced them is a problem.

At any rate, here are the tracks I think are valuable, and here's a key to my reasons for each one. Would be very interested in others' perspectives.

Key to Reasons for Inclusion on the List:

  1. Previously unreleased (either totally unreleased, or never officially released)
  2. Significantly or totally different version, take, or mix
  3. Better sound than prior masterings
  4. Instrumental version that's interesting and/or benefits from removal of vocal
  5. Similar to album version but with better or interestingly different sonics or mix

Zep II
Ramble On (rough mix with cold ending) (2) (totally different feel from the album version)
La La (1)

Zep III
Since I've Been Loving You (first take) (2) (totally different take)
Bathroom Sound (4)
That's the Way (rough mix with dulcimer) (2) (totally different version, and at original speed/pitch
Jennings Farm Blues (1)
Key to the Highway/Trouble in Mind (1)

Zep IV
The Battle of Evermore (4)
Stairway to Heaven (5)
Going to California (4)

Houses of the Holy
The Song Remains the Same (instrumental with guitar overdubs) (2, 4) (this has been a grail for many hardcore fans for years, and great to have without the sped-up helium vocals)
The Rain Song (rough mix) (5, and also necessary to pair with TSRTS)
Over the Hills and Far Away (4)
No Quarter (4) (great to have without the slowed-down quaalude vocals)

Physical Graffiti
Brandy and Coke (Trampled Under Foot) (2 or 5)
Sick Again (early version) (2) (a revelation)
Houses of the Holy (rough mix) (5)

Presence
10 Ribs & all/Carrot Pod Pod (Pod) (1)
(Could include the alt. vocal version of Royal Orleans too, but it's horrid so I didn't :) )

In Through the Out Door
In the Evening (rough mix) (2)
The Epic (Carouselambra) (5)

Coda
If It Keeps on Raining (When the Levee Breaks) (2)
Bonzo's Montreux (mix in progress) (2, 5) (better than the album version)
Baby Come on Home (3)
Sugar Mama (1) (different mix and better sound than the bootleg version too)
Hey, Hey, What Can I Do (3)
Four Hands (Four Sticks) (Bombay) (1) (grail for many hardcore fans)
Friends (Bombay) (1) (grail for many hardcore fans)
St. Tristan's Sword (1) (epic grail)
Desire (The Wanton Song) (2)
Bring It On Home (rough mix) (2) (totally different than album versions; a revelation)
Walter's Walk (instrumental) (4) (great to have without the 1982 vocals)
Everybody Makes It Through (In the Light) (2)

Edited by tmtomh

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, tmtomh said:

I disagree. Yes, the casual fan is not going to be interested in many of the companion tracks. And I agree some tracks are fairly pointless, providing very minor variations (e.g. Rock and Roll, Kashmir). And I agree that the companion-disc versions of Fool in the Rain, All My Love, and I'm Gonna Crawl on ITTOD sound terrible and it's an embarrassment that Page included them.

But having revisited all 67 of the companion tracks (excluding the live Paris show companion to Zep I), my argument is that about half of them - just over 30 - are very worthwhile.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that they could have released the best companion tracks on a single 3-CD set - and if they had, I am confident many naysayers would've changed their tune. But even so, these tracks are available inexpensively on CD - when they came out the Deluxe CDs could be had for as little as $1 or $2 more than the album-only CDs. Not to mention the companion tracks always have been available a la carte for $1.29 or so from the online music download sites. So I don't think how they organized them or priced them is a problem.

At any rate, here are the tracks I think are valuable, and here's a key to my reasons for each one. Would be very interested in others' perspectives.

Key to Reasons for Inclusion on the List:

  1. Previously unreleased (either totally unreleased, or never officially released)
  2. Significantly or totally different version, take, or mix
  3. Better sound than prior masterings
  4. Instrumental version that's interesting and/or benefits from removal of vocal
  5. Similar to album version but with better or interestingly different sonics or mix

Zep II
Ramble On (rough mix with cold ending) (2) (totally different feel from the album version)
La La (1)

Zep III
Since I've Been Loving You (first take) (2) (totally different take)
Bathroom Sound (4)
That's the Way (rough mix with dulcimer) (2) (totally different version, and at original speed/pitch
Jennings Farm Blues (1)
Key to the Highway/Trouble in Mind (1)

Zep IV
The Battle of Evermore (4)
Stairway to Heaven (5)
Going to California (4)

Houses of the Holy
The Song Remains the Same (instrumental with guitar overdubs) (2, 4) (this has been a grail for many hardcore fans for years, and great to have without the sped-up helium vocals)
The Rain Song (rough mix) (5, and also necessary to pair with TSRTS)
Over the Hills and Far Away (4)
No Quarter (4) (great to have without the slowed-down quaalude vocals)

Physical Graffiti
Brandy and Coke (Trampled Under Foot) (2 or 5)
Sick Again (early version) (2) (a revelation)
Houses of the Holy (rough mix) (5)

Presence
10 Ribs & all/Carrot Pod Pod (Pod) (1)
(Could include the alt. vocal version of Royal Orleans too, but it's horrid so I didn't :) )

In Through the Out Door
In the Evening (rough mix) (2)
The Epic (Carouselambra) (5)

Coda
If It Keeps on Raining (When the Levee Breaks) (2)
Bonzo's Montreux (mix in progress) (2, 5) (better than the album version)
Baby Come on Home (3)
Sugar Mama (1) (different mix and better sound than the bootleg version too)
Hey, Hey, What Can I Do (3)
Four Hands (Four Sticks) (Bombay) (1) (grail for many hardcore fans)
Friends (Bombay) (1) (grail for many hardcore fans)
St. Tristan's Sword (1) (epic grail)
Desire (The Wanton Song) (2)
Bring It On Home (rough mix) (2) (totally different than album versions; a revelation)
Walter's Walk (instrumental) (4) (great to have without the 1982 vocals)
Everybody Makes It Through (In the Light) (2)

And the Titanic had a great dessert trolley.

I see where you're coming from, but this argument is like when I periodically re-visit WIC and want to love it, but I can't, and I try to rationalise that it's better than it actually is, because it's Page and Plant.

AS the OP, I stand by my original opinion, that the remasters was a missed opportunity and it could have been so much better.

WIP material in its best possible quality would have shone a light on the creative process far better than a mix with a slightly louder tambourine.

We waited decades for the mother-lode; and got a happy meal instead.

 

 

Edited by Boleskinner

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On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 2:08 PM, tmtomh said:

I disagree. Yes, the casual fan is not going to be interested in many of the companion tracks. And I agree some tracks are fairly pointless, providing very minor variations (e.g. Rock and Roll, Kashmir). And I agree that the companion-disc versions of Fool in the Rain, All My Love, and I'm Gonna Crawl on ITTOD sound terrible and it's an embarrassment that Page included them.

But having revisited all 67 of the companion tracks (excluding the live Paris show companion to Zep I), my argument is that about half of them - just over 30 - are very worthwhile.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that they could have released the best companion tracks on a single 3-CD set - and if they had, I am confident many naysayers would've changed their tune. But even so, these tracks are available inexpensively on CD - when they came out the Deluxe CDs could be had for as little as $1 or $2 more than the album-only CDs. Not to mention the companion tracks always have been available a la carte for $1.29 or so from the online music download sites. So I don't think how they organized them or priced them is a problem.

At any rate, here are the tracks I think are valuable, and here's a key to my reasons for each one. Would be very interested in others' perspectives.

Key to Reasons for Inclusion on the List:

  1. Previously unreleased (either totally unreleased, or never officially released)
  2. Significantly or totally different version, take, or mix
  3. Better sound than prior masterings
  4. Instrumental version that's interesting and/or benefits from removal of vocal
  5. Similar to album version but with better or interestingly different sonics or mix

 

Zep III
Since I've Been Loving You (first take) (2) (totally different take)
Bathroom Sound (4)
That's the Way (rough mix with dulcimer) (2) (totally different version, and at original speed/pitch
Jennings Farm Blues (1)
Key to the Highway/Trouble in Mind (1)

I enjoyed your post although I think the companion disc versions of Immigrant Song & Gallows Pole are two of the most crucial ones for me, both brilliant versions.

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1 hour ago, Mook said:

I enjoyed your post although I think the companion disc versions of Immigrant Song & Gallows Pole are two of the most crucial ones for me, both brilliant versions.

Good point about IS and GP - agree, especially about GP.

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Posted (edited)

On 6/10/2017 at 4:56 AM, Boleskinner said:

And the Titanic had a great dessert trolley.

I see where you're coming from, but this argument is like when I periodically re-visit WIC and want to love it, but I can't, and I try to rationalise that it's better than it actually is, because it's Page and Plant.

AS the OP, I stand by my original opinion, that the remasters was a missed opportunity and it could have been so much better.

WIP material in its best possible quality would have shone a light on the creative process far better than a mix with a slightly louder tambourine.

We waited decades for the mother-lode; and got a happy meal instead.

 

 

 

Unless you have two accounts here or the admins deleted the original first post in this thread, you're not the OP; Flares has the first post here. Your Titanic and happy meal jokes don't make any sense in this context. Your "tamborine slightly louder in the mix" comment is silly, and doesn't acknowledge that right at the outset of my comment I agreed that many of the tracks are indeed of little value. And so your claim, via the WIC analogy, that I actually know the companion material is lame but am trying to rationalize that it's better, is both inaccurate and condescending.

I get that it's easier to argue against the view you would prefer others have, than to argue against what they actually write. You are welcome to your opinion, but you are not welcome to mine.

Edited by tmtomh

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, tmtomh said:

Your "tamborine slightly louder in the mix" comment is silly, and doesn't acknowledge that right at the outset of my comment I agreed that many of the tracks are indeed of little value

You also say, "But having revisited all 67 of the companion tracks (excluding the live Paris show companion to Zep I), my argument is that about half of them - just over 30 - are very worthwhile."

So we're scraping a 50 per cent return rate on tracks.

That's a crap return in any walk of life.

You can produce all the graphs, pie charts and "analysis" you like, but people listen with their ears, and music is judged with emotion and gut feeling, not with contrived arguments used to rationalise an underwhelming release.

 

 

Edited by Boleskinner

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Posted (edited)

But only 50% of the companion disc material was worthwhile, IMO, for two reasons. 1. Many tracks were hard to tell from originals to an average ear, even though SIBLY, Levee outtakes, and especially Immigrant Song were my favorites. Most sound extremely similar to the album version... most my friends wouldn't be able to tell them apart, who like Zeppelin. Which leads to #2, which 99% of people I know would prefer 2. Live material that sounded better than the disc 1 companion disc mixed in

I think absence of live material (No Quarter from original TSRTS soundtrack for example) was the mistake, live material mixed in would have been a much better choice for noobs and the rest of us all. Even if it was stuff from RAH, Earls Court, Knebworth, etc.

They had Texas Pop '69 and Fillmore to pull from, idk why they didn't.

Edited by Dirty Work

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Posted (edited)

On 6/12/2017 at 8:00 PM, Boleskinner said:

You also say, "But having revisited all 67 of the companion tracks (excluding the live Paris show companion to Zep I), my argument is that about half of them - just over 30 - are very worthwhile."

So we're scraping a 50 per cent return rate on tracks.

That's a crap return in any walk of life.

You can produce all the graphs, pie charts and "analysis" you like, but people listen with their ears, and music is judged with emotion and gut feeling, not with contrived arguments used to rationalise an underwhelming release.

 

 

Again, you are arguing against a straw man. There's no graphs or pie charts here - and you know it. A 50% return is not "a crap return in any walk of life." If you think my argument is contrived, then provide some evidence for that claim. Mindless arrogance won't win you any arguments.

Also, it helps if you display at least a minimum of accountability for what you say. So at least acknowledge that you're not the OP of this thread.

Edited by tmtomh

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On 14/06/2017 at 10:32 AM, tmtomh said:

Mindless arrogance won't win you any arguments.

I've put forward my logical argument, if you want to resort to personal insult, because you don't have a counter argument, then that's up to you.

But I'm not resorting to mud slinging.

We'll need to agree to disagree. 

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