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RoundingRover

Why was JPJ disinvited from Page/Plant?

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Plant didn't want any extra baggage from the past and outside he and JPJ were in Zep together, there is no bond.

Even at 02 reunion, I don't think Plant looked at JPJ once while on stage, but there was lots of smiles and nods with Jimmy and Jason.

Plant and JPJ is what it is—a professional working relationship that ended 37 years ago.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Sometimes instruments that sound new, modern and fresh don't age all that well.  It's like watching a CGI masterpiece from 20 years ago that looks dated and cheesy today.. The Alembic was it in the late 70's.. 

Much like Shaken n Stirred or Scream For Help.  Pretty cool at the time.. dated today. 

Robert has definitely learned from this and now able to combine modern sounds and technology with his roots. John Paul Jones is one of the most versatile major musicians on the planet.... all's well that ends well.. 

Edited by the chase

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On 3/8/2017 at 0:12 AM, Mithril46 said:

Well certainly C. Jones and Michael Lee weren't seen as up to Zep's "real" rhythm section. However, have you ever actually

seen P/P live in 98', or heard/seen audio/videos of their shows ?? Page was a little erratic but still usually good at least 

in 95'. 98', Page came out all guns blazing, quite a few critics and fans will attest he played fantastic, even as good as Zep.

Plant wasn't weak by any standard, either. Not Zep but Lee and C.Jones weren't a farce by any means. Perhaps you've

seen some of those shows or heard them. Many people just automatically assume it couldn't possibly be any good, without actually hearing the shows. Forget WIC... Live the songs were much more potent.

You talking to me ???

 

If so, then my comments about the '95 P&P show that I saw in Dallas not being up to Zeppelin standards, was a jab at P&P and not at Lee & Jones.

Have you been to any Zeppelin concerts??

The P&P show, for me, did not approach the "magik" of any LZ show ('70-'77).

If P&P 'floated your boat', then fine. But I won't be convinced, no matter how proficient you say Page was playing in '98, that these P&P shows were on the same level as any LZ show. But as LZ tribute band, I'd say the P&P shows were sorta good.

I walked out during "Kashmir" in '95. It's power was just so many levels below what I had experienced in '77.... well there was no reason to overly any of the memories of the '77 performance with the '95 one. Yeah, '77's was that ass kicking, in person. Boots don't do the power of the '77 performance justice.

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I honestly don't know if Plant even likes JPJ, and if Plant's dislike of him could've been the final nail in the coffin regarding his participation in the NO Quarter project. In Uncle Joe's Record Guide on Hard Rock Bands, it is mentioned that JPJ was not even scheduled to perform with Plant and Page at the rock and roll hall of fame ceremony, but some last minute, tense negotiations led to his inclusion in the jam. I think there is a rift between them.

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21 hours ago, Strider said:

I was not talking about 'random Google sites'. I was talking about very specific interviews Robert gave about the inception of the Un-Ledded project to real journalists for real media publications...not some keyboard warrior in his underwear in his mother's basement.

Boiled down simply...the Un-Ledded thing first began as on offer from MTV to do an Un-Plugged episode. Somehow by someone, Jimmy Page got mentioned as a possible collaborator. Robert Plant was nervous about working with Jimmy again. How would they mesh personally and professionally after all those years apart. There was also still the pain of past wounds for Plant to deal with. To add John Paul Jones to that mix would have been too much for Plant to deal with at one time. First he wanted to see if Page and him could get on with each other.

As for the "parking cars" remark...that is Plant's humour, you can either take it with a grain of salt or take umbrage. He has always been that way. Personally, I think he meant that answer more for the reporter asking the question than towards Jones. It was Plant's way of short-circuiting any "Zep reunion" questions.

I liked the Un-Ledded sessions...it was thrilling to hear the Egyptian orchestra behind Four Sticks and Kashmir. The 1995 tour was amazing...I haven't heard the LA Forum that loud since the days of Zeppelin. 

But hey, if it still sticks in your craw that Jones was not invited and you think there is some nefarious reason Plant has it in for Jones, then try this on for size. The reason is Plant never forgave Jones for switching to the Alembic basses in 1977 and littering the shows with alien fart noises. 

I know this is asking quite a lot but, do you remember how those Alembic's sounded live? I heard that neither the soundboards nor the aud recording do them justice. After all, if they sounded so shitty, why were so many great players using them in the late 70's? 

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I wonder how Plant's personality takes criticism? I ask this because as Jones was the only classically trained musician within Zeppelin, it was likely Jones who would nix a musical idea which he knew would not work on a musical theory level. Having no formal musical training himself Plant may have taken some of Jones criticism personally. In other words, Plant may have looked upon Jones as an insufferable know it all. The whole Black Country good old boy rubbing against the stuffy London professional. Plus, Jones went his own way and was not known to partake in much of the Zep shenanigans compared to the other three. Plant may have thought Jones a bit of a snob. 

I figure Plant and Jones got on well during ITTOD as they had more in common with each other at that particular moment in time, but once Zep ended, they drifted apart.

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1 hour ago, IpMan said:

I wonder how Plant's personality takes criticism? I ask this because as Jones was the only classically trained musician within Zeppelin, it was likely Jones who would nix a musical idea which he knew would not work on a musical theory level. Having no formal musical training himself Plant may have taken some of Jones criticism personally. In other words, Plant may have looked upon Jones as an insufferable know it all. The whole Black Country good old boy rubbing against the stuffy London professional. Plus, Jones went his own way and was not known to partake in much of the Zep shenanigans compared to the other three. Plant may have thought Jones a bit of a snob. 

I figure Plant and Jones got on well during ITTOD as they had more in common with each other at that particular moment in time, but once Zep ended, they drifted apart.

This sums up the personality and culture clash pretty well.

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"I figure Plant and Jones got on well during ITTOD as they had more in common with each other at that particular moment in time,  but once Zep ended they drifted apart"  

I thought so too before I started reading things over the years.  I never thought Jones and
Plant had an overly close relationship outside of the studio though.  Page and Plant that's a
different story.  But it didn't matter who hung out with who since they all came together on
the stage and that's where it counted most.  

As far as them working closely for I T T O D.  I wanna say the drug circle of hell that Page and
Bonham were trapped inside of,   probably helped push Robert and Jones together.  You
never hear either say anything fondly about working together at that time.  Depending on the
interview whenever Jones speaks about I T T O D  he never praises it.  He doesn't bash it
to death either,  but several times you can tell by some of his words it doesn't come across
like it was a high point in his Zep timeline.  It's hard to tell if he means the album itself,  the
fact Page and Bonham were in bad shape or all above.  Maybe that's when he came to
realize he and Robert clashed too much. Not as noticeable when all 4 were working  regularly
together.

I wish I could remember where I saw it.  An interview where he takes his words back a
couple of times and made it sound like the album would have turned out differently if
circumstances had been different. I think he could tell the interviewer was about to take his
initial words and ask  "Was I T T O D  a disappointment for you or the band?  Because he very
quickly added in the record happened the way it did because of his new toy and both Robert
and he had already had several tracks laid out.
 Then usual babble we get with how I T T O D
came to be.  
:lol: 

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9 hours ago, IpMan said:

I know this is asking quite a lot but, do you remember how those Alembic's sounded live? I heard that neither the soundboards nor the aud recording do them justice. After all, if they sounded so shitty, why were so many great players using them in the late 70's? 

I've talked about this several times in the live section of the forum. It definitely sounded better in the hall than what you hear on the board tapes. It even sounds better on the audience tapes than the soundboard.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, IpMan said:

I wonder how Plant's personality takes criticism? I ask this because as Jones was the only classically trained musician within Zeppelin, it was likely Jones who would nix a musical idea which he knew would not work on a musical theory level. Having no formal musical training himself Plant may have taken some of Jones criticism personally. In other words, Plant may have looked upon Jones as an insufferable know it all. The whole Black Country good old boy rubbing against the stuffy London professional. Plus, Jones went his own way and was not known to partake in much of the Zep shenanigans compared to the other three. Plant may have thought Jones a bit of a snob. 

I figure Plant and Jones got on well during ITTOD as they had more in common with each other at that particular moment in time, but once Zep ended, they drifted apart.

The only song JPJ received a writing credit for on Presence was Royal Orleans. No doubt for the amazing main riff... yes that's a Bass lick.

What did Robert do with it? He embarrassed the shit out of his bandmate by writing a tale about a friend who wakes up kissing whiskers in a hotel fire.

Was this good natured ribbing, ball busting or a nasty jab? Not sure, possibly all.  But with the shit all 4 of them must have had on each other, it's a little weird that that incident was made into a song.

Edited by the chase

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3 hours ago, the chase said:

The only song JPJ received a writing credit for on Presence was Royal Orleans. No doubt for the amazing main riff... yes that's a Bass lick.

What did Robert do with it? He embarrassed the shit out of his bandmate by writing a tale about a friend who wakes up kissing whiskers in a hotel fire.

Was this good natured ribbing, ball busting or a nasty jab? Not sure, possibly all.  But with the shit all 4 of them must have had on each other, it's a little weird that that incident was made into a song.

Wasn't Living Loving Maid about an old (over 16...ha, ha) groupie that Robert balled all night long yet the night ended in frustration because he could not get her off? I read that somewhere, do not remember where. Of course the song does not mention those embarrassing details as I am sure it damaged old Robert's pride. So, we have Robert embarrassing Jonsey in RO and Robert pissing on Jimmy in Carouselambra. It appears he left Bonzo alone, most likely out of fear of a nasty ass kicking as I doubt Bonzo would have been down with being the brunt of a perpetual joke or jab.

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Never were Plant and Jonesy buddies. During the ITTOD sessions, they were drinking pints of Pimm's, a normal musician

activity but unlikely done among "mild" aquaintances. During Zep, Jones called on Page twice (documented) that certain

sections of Kashmir and ALS wouldn't mesh with Page's various guitar parts(actually they worked). But correcting Plant,

find me an example. Then in 86' with the short lived Zep rehearsal reunion, after the sessions Plant invited everyone

to some tavern to drink, but Page(perhaps he was attempting to get soberr) never showed. I don't think Plant totally

dislikes Jonesy, but certainly there is some strange energy there. It doesn't help that Plant himself sometimes says some

rather contradictory things in the same interview.

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On 3/9/2017 at 9:20 PM, Mithril46 said:

Ha Ha. Many have complained about that powerful but somewhat shrill and obtrusive Alembic bass. File that in with that

?($5000) Yamaha keyboard which sounded like a Toy's R Us kid keyboard. Sorry about these double entries, I have tried

everything to eliminate them. Perhaps there are saboteurs afoot, or I really am a computer moron.

Ha!  And the Ovation guitars, the acoustic first cousins to the slappity bap yap Alembic bass.  Hell, they'll even pay you to play those thing!!! Yuck

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Jonesy got the best deal out of Zeppelin: he got rich, left with his sanity and family intact, and not many people in the street will recognise and bother him.

Plant had no obligation to ask Jonsey to join P/P and looking back, Jonsey's reaction seems a bit precious know.

I mean 14 years had passed since the band split up.

 

 

 

 

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It's not so much that he wasn't asked.. to find out about it on MTV news was the insult. A call or an email would have done wonders.. 

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1 hour ago, the chase said:

It's not so much that he wasn't asked.. to find out about it on MTV news was the insult. A call or an email would have done wonders.. 

...and that they called it 'no quarter'.  I think that was what pissed him off the most.

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Posted (edited)

Why was JPJ disinvited from Page/Plant? Because Plant was calling the shots at this point in time and he didn't want him there, thats why. Thats a no brainer. Page certainly would have relished having JPJ on board, but Plant was having none of that. Plant wanted 'his' drummer and 'his' bass player (who i believe was married to Plants daughter at the time) and that was that. I think Plants response to the question: "where's JPJ?" said it all, "he's parking the car". That was truly disrespectful as well as unforgivable IMO, and it speaks volumes about the relationship between Plant & JPJ. I  think its interesting to note that shortly after the 2007 reunion JPJ was asked what were the future possibilities for more and  JPJ responded with a simple: "I don't know, I just know I want to play with Jimmy again". Notice how he didn't mention wanting to play with Plant?

There is no love lost between those two....

Edited by blindwillie127

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8 hours ago, Boleskinner said:

Plant had no obligation to ask Jonsey to join P/P and looking back, Jonsey's reaction seems a bit precious know.

I mean 14 years had passed since the band split up.

I believe they were obliged to INFORM him (Jones) out of professional courtesy. Though it had been 14 years since the band split up, the Page/Plant collaboration leaned almost exclusively on the music the three had spent more than 12 years together making. It was also less than four years since the band's last significant studio release (Led Zeppelin The Definitive Collection). All emotion aside, this was to some extent a significant business decision they (Page/Plant) made that could impact JPJ's bottom line as a touring solo musician and something he would inevitably encounter with the press.   

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5 hours ago, blindwillie127 said:

I  think its interesting to note that shortly after the 2007 reunion JPJ was asked what were the future possibilities for more and  JPJ responded with a simple: "I don't know, I just know I want to play with Jimmy again". Notice how he didn't mention wanting to play with Plant?

I sense he's simply expressing he's open-minded and interested in a collaboration to explore NEW musical ideas. Page, Plant & Jones doing anything post-2007 other than playing hockey arenas as Led Zeppelin would seem highly unlikely and as such not even in the periphery of his thoughts. 

 

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6 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

I believe they were obliged to INFORM him (Jones) out of professional courtesy. Though it had been 14 years since the band split up, the Page/Plant collaboration leaned almost exclusively on the music the three had spent more than 12 years together making. It was also less than four years since the band's last significant studio release (Led Zeppelin The Definitive Collection). All emotion aside, this was to some extent a significant business decision they (Page/Plant) made that could impact JPJ's bottom line as a touring solo musician and something he would inevitably encounter with the press.   

True, a phone call should have been made.

Maybe Jones got his revenge by not telling Page he had joined Them Crooked Vultures after the Wembley guest encores.

Page was peeved at that.

Ah, life's too short....

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2 hours ago, Boleskinner said:

True, a phone call should have been made.

Maybe Jones got his revenge by not telling Page he had joined Them Crooked Vultures after the Wembley guest encores.

Page was peeved at that.

Ah, life's too short....

All Page had to do was pick up the phone and say to Grohl 'about that project you mentioned? I'm interested....', like Jones did.

Jones - proactive, collaborates constantly. I don't think he's into revenge, but I'll bet he appreciates a bit of karma. 

Page - gives off the hermit vibe, waits around for calls and gets disappointed and snarky when no-one does. 

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37 minutes ago, woz70 said:

All Page had to do was pick up the phone and say to Grohl 'about that project you mentioned? I'm interested....', like Jones did.

Jones - proactive, collaborates constantly. I don't think he's into revenge, but I'll bet he appreciates a bit of karma. 

Page - gives off the hermit vibe, waits around for calls and gets disappointed and snarky when no-one does. 

Interested to know where you read that Jones pro-actively called Grohl after the Wembley appearance? 

Never read that anywhere before.

What's the source?

 

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Posted (edited)

'Where's John Paul Jones?' - 'He's parking the car!' Disrespectful? Sure, but all pisstakes are disrespectful. How do you make a wise ass quip at someone else's expense in a 'respectful' way? Unforgiveable? Nah, it was just a smart-arse one-liner, not a deathly serious, fully-considered value judgement on JPJ's worth or contribution to Led Zeppelin. Look, when Paul Cook and Steve Jones from the Sex Pistols were interviewed on American radio in 1978, the interviewer asked 'Where's Sid?' and Jones replied 'He's wanking off!' Spot the parallel? See it for the simple off-the-cuff, smart-arse quip it was? 'He's parking the car' was no different to that. Ripping the piss out of your mates - it's a national pastime!

Edited by Brigante

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1 hour ago, Brigante said:

'Where's John Paul Jones?' - 'He's parking the car!' Disrespectful? Sure, but all pisstakes are disrespectful. How do you make a wise ass quip at someone else's expense in a 'respectful' way? Unforgiveable? Nah, it was just a smart-arse one-liner, not a deathly serious, fully-considered value judgement on JPJ's worth or contribution to Led Zeppelin. Look, when Paul Cook and Steve Jones from the Sex Pistols were interviewed on American radio in 1978, the interviewer asked 'Where's Sid?' and Jones replied 'He's wanking off!' Spot the parallel? See it for the simple off-the-cuff, smart-arse quip it was? 'He's parking the car' was no different to that. Ripping the piss out of your mates - it's a national pastime!

I understand what you're saying but I would guess (just my opinion of course) that first off, it's his sense of humor which doesn't always come across as such but also, he'd probably been asked a ton of questions about why no John Paul and Zep and maybe he was trying to find a way to put a stop to it and it just didn't come out that way. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Boleskinner said:

Interested to know where you read that Jones pro-actively called Grohl after the Wembley appearance? 

Never read that anywhere before.

What's the source?

The Wembley Stadium jam was June 7, 2008. In Nov/Dec 2008, JPJ was in the states playing various gigs, after which he attended Grohl's 40th birthday party at Medieval Times in Los Angeles in January 2009. Dave purposefully sat JPJ beside Josh Homme. JPJ, Grohl and Homme got together a couple days after the birthday party at Homme's home studio, Baby Duck Studios. Their first jam lasted about thirty minutes. They jammed a second time the following day, and agreed they should form a band. JPJ then returned to England. JPJ returned to Baby Duck Studios in February 2009, and the three began working two weeks on and two weeks off for about eight weeks from noon to 3 am. The rest is history. 

 

 

Edited by SteveAJones

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