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The Rover 75

Did They Paint Themselves Into A Corner?

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Btw i did not mean to sound rude in previous post...i still make the mistake of thinking in conversation as opposed to typing something on the internet.

I think Page and Plant were aware of how unflexible the led zeppelin setlist was by the time they played again in the 90s and how cool was it to hear gallows pole, friends, thank you, four sticks....i think they stretched out on a medley w shake my tree, with the doors song break on through etc ...they had, in the evening, a bit longer like an 80 version except w orchestra and of course the rearranged kashmir, but there was alot of room for more songs without any solo type zep showcase songs. Page even did that on the outrider tour...there was improv on certain things, instrumentals, but it was mostly a scaled back show which left room for custard pie, train kept a rollin, over the hills, tear down the walls on the light side and even a scaled back white summer which was super effective, leaving alot of space for the heavy stuff and instrumentals.

Definitely an interesting topic and one can see how slow the bands decision making was over the years, with freeing up the setlist, with such a great catalogue of material to play.

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The "truth" can be a many sided thing and this thread is a great example. But my first point is that despite the uncertain health 

status of Page and Bonham for the 80' tour, for me the Europe trek simply didn't work. Cut back a bit, yes, but the cuts were

too far and deep. Imagine the Dead trying the 80' approach, HA HA. Yes even in the 70's there could have been mild cuts in

the jams, with more newer/unplayed cuts. But many tracks have too many guitar overdubs and studio trickery to play live.

"Levee" was a perfect example, never heard of anyone let alone Page getting this song properly. Puzzled about 71' live

"Four Sticks". sounded fine to me, why not repeated."Gallows Pole" as well, why dropped. Also 77' on, Page IMO was

getting lazy. Some say Carouselambra was a lock for the proposed 80' US leg 1. Not sure this was ever confirmed

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Those epics are one of the reasons i love this band.

Them sticking to a ''just play the songs'' format would make them just a typical live band.

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Yep, the short songs can be great but the best epics are almost mythological, beyfond legendary. When dinosaurs walked the

earth  is spot on. The behavior of the band as well is epic, as if to say regular human limitations are not observed here, are

in fact sneered at. Hence no hesitation whatsoever worrying about mortal concerns as time and song length.

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The Europe set list didn't work well, I think most agree with that. Trampled in 1980 was still extended, exploratory, and worked very well. Whole lotta love encore (last show) was blistering. Up there with the best ever. But they probably needed to inject somerthing more dynamic - previously not tried out numbers. Custard Pie, For Your Life, Carouselumbra, etc.

It is interesting that the guys view is they were all so shattered in part because they saw 1980 as a new begginning with them having "turned a corner" somewhat. Sounds like they understood they had reached a low point and intended to rise from it. So much more the pity. Such a blow.

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Posted (edited)

I guess you either try and move with the times, or exist in splendid isolationism and say this is what we do, sod the rest.

By 1980, Plant was lobbying for the former.

The band half bought into his philosophy and as a result the Tour over Europe was an uneasy balancing act between the old and the new - a sort of curious death rattle.

They were clearly in transition.

Where they were going is another matter...

 

 

Edited by Boleskinner

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Where they were going is another matter...

 

Slightly off topic, but had the band continued into the 80s, how on earth would the "don't put yourself on tv" thing have worked in the MTV age? So many other bands embraced the video, there would have been huge pressure to change their ways. I'd hate to imagine a compromised Zep eventually caving and doing half arsed naff videos.

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I always thought they could have fit brilliantly into an early "Unplugged" TV arrangement. Something they had NOT done, something new - and new for them. They would have had to have started considering video in 1980 and beyond. It was not a choice, just what to do about it.

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Just now, rm2551 said:

They would have had to have started considering video in 1980 and beyond. It was not a choice, just what to do about it.

CODA, released in November 1982, had no promotional videos to accompany it.

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5 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

CODA, released in November 1982, had no promotional videos to accompany it.

Likely because the band has ceased to exist and Coda was a contractural obligation, nothing more and no reason to even promote. If Atlantic wanted to promote it that would be solely up to them as what remained of Zeppelin had fulfilled their contractural commitments.

Now if Bonzo had not passed away and the band continued, I do believe they would have embraced video and MTV to whatever extent would benefit the band the most. Peter Grant had great concern over TV produced audio in the 60's & 70's...massive cabinet TV's with a tiny, shitty speaker designed for dialogue driven TV shows. By the time of MTV the sound technology of most TV's had greatly improved and people were beginning to buy home theatre systems as well. I believe that would have persuaded Grant & Zeppelin to do what everyone else was doing.

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33 minutes ago, IpMan said:

Likely because the band has ceased to exist and Coda was a contractural obligation, nothing more and no reason to even promote. If Atlantic wanted to promote it that would be solely up to them as what remained of Zeppelin had fulfilled their contractural commitments.

Now if Bonzo had not passed away and the band continued, I do believe they would have embraced video and MTV to whatever extent would benefit the band the most. Peter Grant had great concern over TV produced audio in the 60's & 70's...massive cabinet TV's with a tiny, shitty speaker designed for dialogue driven TV shows. By the time of MTV the sound technology of most TV's had greatly improved and people were beginning to buy home theatre systems as well. I believe that would have persuaded Grant & Zeppelin to do what everyone else was doing.

Solo Robert certainly did.. Jimmy as well with The Firm. 

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I just don't think the music would have translated well to a video environment. Bands that did well with videos in the 80s were either bands that could camp it up and look silly &  it didn't spoil their image (Duran Duran, Queen) or bands like the hair metallers that never had any dignity to lose in the first place. I just cannot imagine Zeppelin making a video for a track in the same way I can't imagine Pink floyd doing it. Although I am not a fan of Floyd, they at least had dignity.

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1 hour ago, 76229 said:

I just don't think the music would have translated well to a video environment. Bands that did well with videos in the 80s were either bands that could camp it up and look silly &  it didn't spoil their image (Duran Duran, Queen) or bands like the hair metallers that never had any dignity to lose in the first place. I just cannot imagine Zeppelin making a video for a track in the same way I can't imagine Pink floyd doing it. Although I am not a fan of Floyd, they at least had dignity.

Floyd did make videos though and they were pretty good. I imagine Zep videos would have been either mostly live footage or that funky, artsy stuff Robert did with Big Log & Little By Little.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, IpMan said:

Floyd did make videos though and they were pretty good. I imagine Zep videos would have been either mostly live footage or that funky, artsy stuff Robert did with Big Log & Little By Little.

Pink Floyd made a major motion picture based on The Wall.. which was pretty much a 2 hour video.

Edited by the chase

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14 hours ago, IpMan said:

Likely because the band has ceased to exist and Coda was a contractural obligation, nothing more and no reason to even promote. If Atlantic wanted to promote it that would be solely up to them as what remained of Zeppelin had fulfilled their contractural commitments.

Now if Bonzo had not passed away and the band continued, I do believe they would have embraced video and MTV to whatever extent would benefit the band the most. Peter Grant had great concern over TV produced audio in the 60's & 70's...massive cabinet TV's with a tiny, shitty speaker designed for dialogue driven TV shows. By the time of MTV the sound technology of most TV's had greatly improved and people were beginning to buy home theatre systems as well. I believe that would have persuaded Grant & Zeppelin to do what everyone else was doing.

Exactly this. :goodpost::thanku:

I do not believe it would have been possible to ignore TV without being very detrimental to the band. Peter was not stupid. He would have exploited this change in music culture to the bands advantage.

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^ I don't know about that. That would be a complete 180 degree turn from the way they became wildly successful. One of the greatest things about LZ was how uncommercial they were and restrained access to the band, so when access was given, it was special. If Bonham hadn't died and LZ wound up doing videos for MTV to remain relevant I think it would have quickly destroyed the essence of the band. I'm sure Grant, Page & Bonham would 'not' have "embraced" MTV.  Jumping on the bandwagon was just not Zeppelins modus operandi. They sold out concerts with no promotion, now they gotta play the game? I don't think so.

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19 hours ago, blindwillie127 said:

^ I don't know about that. That would be a complete 180 degree turn from the way they became wildly successful. One of the greatest things about LZ was how uncommercial they were and restrained access to the band, so when access was given, it was special. If Bonham hadn't died and LZ wound up doing videos for MTV to remain relevant I think it would have quickly destroyed the essence of the band. I'm sure Grant, Page & Bonham would 'not' have "embraced" MTV.  Jumping on the bandwagon was just not Zeppelins modus operandi. They sold out concerts with no promotion, now they gotta play the game? I don't think so.

Good points. But I still think given the rise of video (Video killed the radio star - remember.) And the bands new found "rebound" from their perceived "low" They could well have incorporated a change that included an engagement with their fans in an expanded format (video of some type - unplugged, or added musicians for complex numbers, orchestra, some kind of experimentation/breaking out) in the early 80's environment. They were the masters of change, and of doing what suited THEM - not what suited anyone else. If they objectively looked at the new decade, and were daring enough to push on into it, who knows, they could well have embraced that change. They did evolve through their studio releases to a massive degree, so why not? It was certainly possible. Of course, under the weight of "excess" - good decisions and smart risk taking strategies were not likely - but possible - but not likely.

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Had Zep continued they may have made some videos, but just like their music they would be attempting something unusual

and spectacular. First of all no members as actors, Page even smacked out, nothing doing. I don't know how many fans saw

the early 95' Page-Plant live reworked No Quarter, but the video screen showed from the eyes of a bird the bird flying over

landscapes in the far east, and ends up in the middie of a jungle showing a apparent large stone religious figure, still

hidden a bit with overgrown vines. This could be done, it blew me away, not sure I've ever seen such gripping "no actors"

video.

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On 24/05/2017 at 9:37 PM, ZepHead315 said:

 

 

Kiss were still doing drum solos with Peter Criss as late as 1998, as this video shows. To put it mildly, Criss is no Bonham.

 

Heh, the comments section has been disabled due to people being rude about Peter Criss.

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I always looked back to 75 and 77 and how they added the new "epic" songs...so couldnt really complain retrospectively too much, except that they needed a couple more lighter songs sometimes. I am thinking of the effectiveness of black country woman 77, hot dog 80, custard pie, outrider 88 and page plants hey hey what can i do 98. Then again, it would have been great if they opened up the setlist just a bit more on each tour...

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