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Canadianzepper

Who wrote the solo/break in Kashmir from 3:25-4:15

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On 8/22/2017 at 10:37 AM, sixpense said:

I have seen the citations but can't find the original interviews. If you have a link please post.

Are you high? How can a guy with your post count come here and perpetuate such obvious untruths. Those are real recorders played by Jones.  As said -- you can actually hear him breath and blow. You can isolate them in a DAW and hear that quite plainly. Here's some more info on those parts - I re-scored them for my own recording of Stairway last year using some VST's after spending hours and hours listening to them. http://www.thestairwayproject.com/tracks-recording-recorders-original-stairway-project/

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I must chime in, for Zep at least Page absolutely did not want "fake" recorder sounds or anything comparable, I vaguely

do remember that Page statement. I have dozens of Zep books, this matter is not often discussed, as other extremely

technical studio knowledge. From so many posts about JPJ not getting credits in particular, this is clear as day. After

Zep, Isn't it somewhat amazing that Jimmy hasn't come up with almost anything near Zep quality ?? Bonzo and absolutely

JPJ were as important as Jimmy himself.

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15 hours ago, Mithril46 said:

I must chime in, for Zep at least Page absolutely did not want "fake" recorder sounds or anything comparable, I vaguely

do remember that Page statement. I have dozens of Zep books, this matter is not often discussed, as other extremely

technical studio knowledge. From so many posts about JPJ not getting credits in particular, this is clear as day. After

Zep, Isn't it somewhat amazing that Jimmy hasn't come up with almost anything near Zep quality ?? Bonzo and absolutely

JPJ were as important as Jimmy himself.

A good point, though I would argue that the musical ambition and creative energy is usually reserved for those in their prime.  Few bands match that as time goes on for any number of reasons, mainly I presume, that hunger of being "in the moment, competing for the hearts and minds of relevant listeners and peers" and, sheer desire to produce something remarkable as an artist.  Even age itself kicks a man to the curb and lowers his swagger.

 

I can't imagine how it must have felt being in your 30's and your greatest creations almost impossible to match again.  Even with Bonzo at the helm, I think it was understandable that they probably weren't going to create another Zeppelin IV or PG.  It's just extremely difficult, and noone took the breakup harder than Page I imagine.  So now the band goes their separate ways, and are always identified as that member of Led Zeppelin.  Who could achieve a repeat performance in another band that matched their heights and creativity?  So, you could argue that JPJ never put out anything close to Led Zeppelins work either.  Noone did or has in my opinion, they are in the league of their own, which is why we are on their forum.

I like some of the post Zeppelin stuff, but they are mostly ballads.  Wonderful One with Page and Plant, Take me for a Little While with Coverdale/Page, and a few interesting songs by Page in his solo career.  I didn't really get into JPJs studio production work.  As it were, none of these songs really matched closely their efforts with LZ.    

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Sorry to remain off topic, but I'll contribute to the immediate above posts....

And those kinds of points are what makes it difficult with people dumping on Page for not getting out there. I too would love to see him out there, and yeah, I know, he keeps saying he will be playing live soon  - for years, and still is not. Valid to call him out on it.

But...

Like above, imagine peaking at the heights they did, as young as they did, creating what they were able to collectively put out there - which was pure 4 part collaboration. Taking a single members idea, and with the input of the other three absolute geniuses, working through and evolving that idea to breathtaking heights for pretty much EVERY DAMN TRACK. Even stuff like Achilles, yeah, Page with the guitar army and beautiful structure and power, but I dare say without the other 3, would not be anything like the powerhouse anthem it is.

So imagine how hard the end of Zep hit Page. It is unimaginable. Loses his best mate, and probably the main underpinning inspiration. Bonham on the drums - how much did that feed Jimmy's power to create? He has spoken of how necessary Bonham was to his output.

So what to do? Zep is over, that much is a given and immediately accepted. You don't want to pack it in at a relatively young age, but creativity as you knew it for so long, that was just so damn good - gone and not recoverable. And the battle to get clean.

Then forms new bands and projects. Inevitably everyone compares to Zep or it's "just not the same" - which is true, and must be a challenge for Jimmy. Some stuff is great, but it's not Zep - and that's not even fair to say, but for Jimmy, creatively, how is that reality managed?

The remasters project, a labor of love and back to what was his creative best. And wanting to share the relevant material surrounding the studio releases with bonus stuff. Not to everyone's liking, but a lot of great stuff in there IMHO.

Now, he may still be struggling with the want of getting out there (he genuinely wants to) vs. his insecurities about how he will be received, how new material may be received, his shyness and uncertainty, no more youthfullness and reckless abandon, no more drugs - even lighter stuff, used as a crutch to just get out on stage and go for it. And who to play with? And who to create with?

I still hold out hope Jimmy and JPJ will collaborate on something. JPJ has said JP was the best guitarist to play with in an interview for what he brought to performances, and able to go through so many changes and turns. And JPJ was incredibly versatile and contributed so much to Zep's work, he and Jimmy back together might be able to find a new direction.

At the end of the day, I still hold out hope Jimmy will indeed be seen playing, I know many of you here scoff at that, and fair enough given the facts, but I hope. But if not, then he doesn't. I won't be pissed. How could I be? Do I understand anything about him? What drives his decisions? Even all this is just my own thoughts from my limited pissant little perspective. He owes me nothing. I owe him a great deal of gratitude for what he has given me.

The most important music in my life by far, and somewhere I could get lost in when days were very dark.

....and as I have said, JPJ wrote the solo for Kashmir, got it practically first take and the others were very happy with it.

 

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On 10/2/2017 at 9:28 PM, DogsoverLava said:

Are you high? How can a guy with your post count come here and perpetuate such obvious untruths. Those are real recorders played by Jones.  As said -- you can actually hear him breath and blow. You can isolate them in a DAW and hear that quite plainly. Here's some more info on those parts - I re-scored them for my own recording of Stairway last year using some VST's after spending hours and hours listening to them. http://www.thestairwayproject.com/tracks-recording-recorders-original-stairway-project/

No, not high - and I don't do drugs buddy. 

You DO realize how the mellotron gets those sounds? Where they come from? Hummmm? Someone playing a recorder.

 

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7 minutes ago, sixpense said:

No, not high - and I don't do drugs buddy. 

You DO realize how the mellotron gets those sounds? Where they come from? Hummmm? Someone playing a recorder.

 

Come on man, let it go, its over, the band has gone home. Both JPJ & Jimmy state in numerous interviews that the intro was done by JPJ with actual, real, wooden recorders...not a mellotron, not with Keebler Elves, with four seperate, wooden recorders played by JPJ.

There, done, now lets move on.

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9 hours ago, sixpense said:

No, not high - and I don't do drugs buddy. 

You DO realize how the mellotron gets those sounds? Where they come from? Hummmm? Someone playing a recorder.

 

True.  But the sounds recorded for the mellotron libraries DO NOT include the sound of someone inhaling before blowing into the instrument, which you can clearly hear in the recording.  You press a key, the sound starts - full stop.  If they did have the breath sound at the start it would be a: virtually impossible to play in time and b: be the same bloody breath sound for every single press of a key - something that you can spot a mile off and sounds, frankly, awful.
Can you seriously not hear that they are real recorders???  Apart from the nuance each note has, each recorder very audibly has a different timbre (relating to it's size) - both of which are elements the mellotron is unable to recreate.  In fact even modern samplers struggle to get anywhere near the nuance of tone a human being can get by simply blowing a woodwind instrument.
Plus, as has been stated a number of times, both JP and JPJ are on the record in many interviews stating that they are real recorders.  Why are you even arguing the toss?  Do you think they're lying?
Add that to the fact that Zep didn't even get a mellotron until '72...

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On 10/7/2017 at 8:22 PM, IpMan said:

Come on man, let it go, its over, the band has gone home. Both JPJ & Jimmy state in numerous interviews that the intro was done by JPJ with actual, real, wooden recorders...not a mellotron, not with Keebler Elves, with four seperate, wooden recorders played by JPJ.

There, done, now lets move on.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That is what this forum is for.

But when someone starts their message "are you high?"  That says more of them then me. 

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1 hour ago, sixpense said:

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That is what this forum is for.

But when someone starts their message "are you high?"  That says more of them then me. 

Here's a particularly pithy quote from professor Brian Cox:

"The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. 

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!"

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38 minutes ago, woz70 said:

Here's a particularly pithy quote from professor Brian Cox:

"The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. 

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!"

;)  Have a similar situation going on over on the Bonham drum kit auction thread. 

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4 hours ago, sixpense said:

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That is what this forum is for.

But when someone starts their message "are you high?"  That says more of them then me. 

However, when your opinion has zero merit, has been proven 100% wrong, it then becomes delusion or fantasy.

Kinda like in my opinion I have the biggest cock in history which has given unspeakable pleasure to countless women who to this day pine for my embrace. Unfortunately the truth is more akin to average guy, average schlong, most women don't remember and don't care. Good thing is I am married so...WINNING!!!

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3 hours ago, IpMan said:

However, when your opinion has zero merit, has been proven 100% wrong, it then becomes delusion or fantasy.

Kinda like in my opinion I have the biggest cock in history which has given unspeakable pleasure to countless women who to this day pine for my embrace. Unfortunately the truth is more akin to average guy, average schlong, most women don't remember and don't care. Good thing is I am married so...WINNING!!!

I like this analogy! Also, this thread was about Kashmir wasn't it? 🐒

Edited by porgie66

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9 hours ago, porgie66 said:

I like this analogy! Also, this thread was about Kashmir wasn't it? 🐒

A wee bit close to the bone (pun intended) indeed. Kashmir? Oh yes, Kashmir, the topic...I remember now :3stooges:

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I think Jones wrote the mellotron part in the middle of Kashmir, it certainly sounds like mellotron and just because there is a real orchestra in there why would you think someone else wrote the mellotron part this time and Jones can even write string parts and improvised them live

and I thought it was common knowledge he wrote both the string parts and the mellotron parts. Even if Jimmy did it's great and if someone else did, the band still wrote so much great music, although the part really is so good it's kind of good to know it's band written and it almost goes beyond an arrangement, but it's only a short part so no credits for Jones is alright.

 

As far as Stairway, it's obviously recorders and band members said so! Why would they lie? I see no reason! Maybe to brag about it? About such simple parts played on such a simple instrument? That's a good one! The arrangement is great though!

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I am fairly certain it is not strings but JPJ on the mellotron. He grew up playing organ in the church and the particular stretch your talking about is reminiscent in style to "Your Time is Gonna Come" but obviously with the exotic twist. Also, the tone of that is just too similar to the other mellotron recordings of JPJ for me to think that it is anything else.

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On 10/26/2017 at 12:27 PM, BAMF33 said:

I am fairly certain it is not strings but JPJ on the mellotron. He grew up playing organ in the church and the particular stretch your talking about is reminiscent in style to "Your Time is Gonna Come" but obviously with the exotic twist. Also, the tone of that is just too similar to the other mellotron recordings of JPJ for me to think that it is anything else.

I don't think anyone was contending the part in Kashmir we are discussing might be strings. The contention was between recorders and mellotron on Stairway intro. 

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On 10/25/2017 at 3:31 PM, sixpense said:

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That is what this forum is for.

But when someone starts their message "are you high?"  That says more of them then me. 

OK -- so you are just a troll then contributing to the noise that erodes the discourse in forums like this.  It's just disappointing to see a guy with your obvious love for the band (based on your post count) spreading such miss-truth in the face of overwhelming evidence.  Not cool at all -- asking if you were high was a polite way to handle it because you could have said "Ya man - totally high - my bad"....

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