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Tadpole in a Jar

Dazed 'n' Confused -- Who messed up?

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Cactus   
So I think Page and Jones should have waited for the fill. But hey, these things happen and the important thing is: Jason can play that fill!

But this leads to a situation of

JPJ: but I was waiting for you to do your fill, Jason

JB: Well John Paul, I was waiting for you and Jimmy to play your E-D-A part

RP: I am a golden god......

In a situation like this no-one is to blame....it was just something that happened.

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^

This is a good account of what happened. I have a 'but' however. Zeppelin live played tight but loose. There was room for improvs, but there are also these signature music bits that function as a guide or cue to segue into the next part of a song or solo. There a tons of examples of that like in the STH solo, D&C etc. Now even if Jason miscounted, Page and Jones should have known the overhead fill comes first and then they segue into the next part. This overhead fill is a biggie in the Bonham book. So I think Page and Jones should have waited for the fill. But hey, these things happen and the important thing is: Jason can play that fill!

Exactly that is what I wanted to add to that analysis he made. Thanx.

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I've only caught it on youtube a couple of times, and heard jason being off on the drum part...but didnt realize it was page throwing him off. Have only seen sections of -dazed on youtube too, some are just of the bow section.

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Upon further review, I'm going to blame this whole thing on Ev.

He could have prevented this.

HE COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS.

:angry:

I regret that this in fact the truth. I shall fall on my sword surely.

But first, a beer. :beer:

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Thats because people are confusing improvisation with fuckups.

Jamming is improvisation. 4 guys playing 4 different things is a fuckup.

Yea I know this is a zepboard and their shit smells like freshly baked cupcakes and such, but wtf, a fuckup is a fuckup.

fuck.... :yay:

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drummer   

Considering that the band had never played a full set with Jason Bonham, plus the added pressure for Jason to fill his late father's shoes, plus all the hoopla surrounding the fact that Mssrs. Page, Plant, and Jones were playing together on the same stage .... I believe that we can cut some slack for Jason and Mssrs. Page, Plant, and Jones. This show was pressure and they are human!

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Considering that the band had never played a full set with Jason Bonham, plus the added pressure for Jason to fill his late father's shoes, plus all the hoopla surrounding the fact that Mssrs. Page, Plant, and Jones were playing together on the same stage .... I believe that we can cut some slack for Jason and Mssrs. Page, Plant, and Jones. This show was pressure and they are human!

What I got from the gig was how hard they were all pushing for each other, they really worked hard, you could see it, the pressure was on big time, Jimmy had a big dribble coming out of his lower lip in the middle(towards the end of the gig),you could see robert looking at it (wanting to wipe it away)jimmy just finished his solo and eventually wiped it away,nothing was going to interupt him, that was

the intensity with which he played all night. Sweat dribble and rock n Roll B)

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kdh   

I guess I'm waiting for someone to say that there was a magic riff from the misty mountian that caused this!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Trashbag   
What I got from the gig was how hard they were all pushing for each other, they really worked hard, you could see it, the pressure was on big time, Jimmy had a big dribble coming out of his lower lip in the middle(towards the end of the gig),you could see robert looking at it (wanting to wipe it away)jimmy just finished his solo and eventually wiped it away,nothing was going to interupt him, that was

the intensity with which he played all night. Sweat dribble and rock n Roll B)

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I listened to that yesterday, the ringing chord Page does is nice to cover up. As for this being anal, isn't a forum? A forum invites analysis of these things. Otherwise it turns into 'we love you Zeppelin, oh yes we do...' The fact that someone signs into this forum suggests a like for the band. Going past variations on fanboy and fangirlism (I believe those terms belong to Klu) is what makes a forum interesting. And BTW, critiscism of the band does not mean a dislike for them. It's analysis of a concert. If we can't do that on a forum, then why don't we just have one thread - 'Zep can do no wrong'.

As Bonham once said, - 'Bore 'em in the forum'.

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I listened to that yesterday, the ringing chord Page does is nice to cover up. As for this being anal, isn't a forum? A forum invites analysis of these things. Otherwise it turns into 'we love you Zeppelin, oh yes we do...' The fact that someone signs into this forum suggests a like for the band. Going past variations on fanboy and fangirlism (I believe those terms belong to Klu) is what makes a forum interesting. And BTW, critiscism of the band does not mean a dislike for them. It's analysis of a concert. If we can't do that on a forum, then why don't we just have one thread - 'Zep can do no wrong'.

As Bonham once said, - 'Bore 'em in the forum'.

Analysis is great. I guess what pisses me off is that we had a wonderful concert, in which the whole band was really cooking and the crowd was delirious, and what everybody seems to be interested in talking about is the sort of minor moment when something didn't go quite the way the listener thinks it was probably intended--and in any case when a band isn't playing strictly by rote, it's that kind of moment that is responsible not just for mistakes but for the soaring moment when something unexpected causes the whole thing to take off into the stratosphere.

Then we come here to learn Jimmy was in the wrong key or Jason was half a beat too late. Who cares--it ROCKED! That's not to say they can do no wrong, but this emphasis on the down side of a very "up" occasion just makes me wonder what sort of impossible or undesirable perfection people are looking for. Dig out some of the boots of the 70s shows, there's Zep doing plenty of wrong.

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Joelmon   

^ It's just this one thread isn't it Aqua ? And you say 'everyone'....a good thread or debate has many to chime in..and if you read this entire thing..you'll see many who recognize the 'fuck up'...but don't denounce it...

There's critical analysis that goes WAY beyond my knowledge of music theory or whatever..but I can learn....and just be entertained.....

And for those who just say...it's rocknroll...it's NOT supposed to be perfect. Well, personally, I'd rather any band play as flawlessly as they can....out of tune, sloppy play..if it's overbearing.....isn't good for rock n roll....as much as some want to give it a pass...

That said...I'll reitterate...the mistakes in this show don't grate on me or bum me out....I was very pleased with it....but if there's stuff that can be pointed out...postive or negative, I'm interested to 'hear' what it is. I may not have caught it initially and it's like critique of any art, we all see/hear it differently and to be exposed to a different way of hear/seeing it....is good. Then you can make your own judgements.

I hope we never get to a point where people are afraid to critique the band or the members or anything else...

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Cactus   
That's Jimmy for ya. :D

Still, that's....... kinda disgusting....

People are obsessed with Jimmy's dribble (see Denton interview/performance with Page/Plant) however it's a sign of 100% concentration, Jimmy is relaxed and in the zone. This is a good sign, he's not worrying about anything else, just concentrating on playing the guitar.

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JRich   
Analysis is great. I guess what pisses me off is that we had a wonderful concert, in which the whole band was really cooking and the crowd was delirious, and what everybody seems to be interested in talking about is the sort of minor moment when something didn't go quite the way the listener thinks it was probably intended--and in any case when a band isn't playing strictly by rote, it's that kind of moment that is responsible not just for mistakes but for the soaring moment when something unexpected causes the whole thing to take off into the stratosphere.

Then we come here to learn Jimmy was in the wrong key or Jason was half a beat too late. Who cares--it ROCKED! That's not to say they can do no wrong, but this emphasis on the down side of a very "up" occasion just makes me wonder what sort of impossible or undesirable perfection people are looking for. Dig out some of the boots of the 70s shows, there's Zep doing plenty of wrong.

I would be a very biased individual.......they can "miss a lick" or whatever and I could care less. I was THERE and it makes my nipples hard when I think about the whole show. They burned the croud down.....the crowd was on fire......it was a perfect experience for me......I'm enjoying the Youtube stuff till the DVD comes out.....what else is there in life anyway.

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Analysis is great. I guess what pisses me off is that we had a wonderful concert, in which the whole band was really cooking and the crowd was delirious, and what everybody seems to be interested in talking about is the sort of minor moment when something didn't go quite the way the listener thinks it was probably intended--and in any case when a band isn't playing strictly by rote, it's that kind of moment that is responsible not just for mistakes but for the soaring moment when something unexpected causes the whole thing to take off into the stratosphere.

I see what you mean, I found that moment to result in a cool unexpected turn, namely, that ringing chord. I find it interesting because you can see the experience Page has there, a prime example of his turning a mistake into a groove.

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Thorzep   
Analysis is great. I guess what pisses me off is that we had a wonderful concert, in which the whole band was really cooking and the crowd was delirious, and what everybody seems to be interested in talking about is the sort of minor moment when something didn't go quite the way the listener thinks it was probably intended
Isn't this exactly the right place to talk about this kind of thing? o2 Forum? Specific thread?

Especially for those of us who weren't lucky enough to be there to witness all the magic? I don't think anybody's saying the screwups ruined the show. But if they did, this would be the place to say it wouldn't it?

As a musician, I find it interesting to analyze it and pick it all apart. That's kind of what we do when we learn to play this stuff.

Personally, I'd like to see alot more critical Zep talk on this board. I don't mean any kind of bashing or petty arguments, I'm talking an interesting exchange of ideas. :)

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JRich   

It's funny with me how that instance made me appreciate it even more......to see Page grin and roll with it.........

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Isn't this exactly the right place to talk about this kind of thing? o2 Forum? Specific thread?

Especially for those of us who weren't lucky enough to be there to witness all the magic? I don't think anybody's saying the screwups ruined the show. But if they did, this would be the place to say it wouldn't it?

As a musician, I find it interesting to analyze it and pick it all apart. That's kind of what we do when we learn to play this stuff.

Personally, I'd like to see alot more critical Zep talk on this board. I don't mean any kind of bashing or petty arguments, I'm talking an interesting exchange of ideas. :)

Fair enough. Maybe I'm just more interested in what happens when it all comes together--[ALERT! KNITTING METAPHOR COMING UP!] enjoying wearing the finished sweater and feeling cool as shit, rather than unraveling it to see how the stitches were interwoven and whether that twisted one was deliberate or a fuck up. :D

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I think what was happening with all this post show analysis is it started to feel not like people having a discussion but more like every little bit of their performance was being picked apart and with that I guess there's some negative implications that somehow the show wasn't good or whatnot. No band is perfect and often those mistakes add to the whole experience if that makes sense.

I don't knit so Aqua I'm with you - wearing the finished sweater is much more appealing :D

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Joelmon   

^ I think it's the maternal instinct in you women. Protective. It's to be expected and natural.

I see it throughout the board when criticism comes up and takes off....in come the mama's to cuddle the boys.....:rolleyes:

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People are obsessed with Jimmy's dribble (see Denton interview/performance with Page/Plant) however it's a sign of 100% concentration, Jimmy is relaxed and in the zone. This is a good sign, he's not worrying about anything else, just concentrating on playing the guitar.

well I'm not obsessed by jimmy's dribble,(it was but a mere observation) however a friend of mine says he has a picture of the exact same dribble from back in the 70's, so Your right (Concentration) wins the day.

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Thorzep   
Fair enough. Maybe I'm just more interested in what happens when it all comes together
Fair enough as well. :D

This is the kind of topic I find interesting and I'd like to see more of it. Not less.

Like isn't cool how Jimmy writes so many different guitar parts for the studio versions. Then when it comes to playing live, he mixes and matches them seemlessly. Then comes up with completely new stuff as well! I mean, lots of musicians improvise, but he does a mash-up of intricately written parts!

Who else does that? Pure genius.

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JRich   

Thorzep.....you're a man of words......perfect analogy. I'll wear that sweater anytime and who cares and who's looking for that misstitch.

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Fair enough as well. :D

This is the kind of topic I find interesting and I'd like to see more of it. Not less.

Like isn't cool how Jimmy writes so many different guitar parts for the studio versions. Then when it comes to playing live, he mixes and matches them seemlessly. Then comes up with completely new stuff as well! I mean, lots of musicians improvise, but he does a mash-up of intricately written parts!

Who else does that? Pure genius.

There ya go--constructive analysis!

(I don't think your comment merits a response, however, Joel, though I might say something about sexism if it wasn't New Year's Eve and not a time for bickering.)

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Joelmon   

^ You can comment all you want Aqua....I didn't say mine to mean like...I really meant it.

Sexism...well...men are from mars, women are from venus...we are different SEXES...so yeah...it was sexist. Not in a bad way though....

I mean....I'm a guy, you're a woman. There is a difference. And that can and does transform into varying forms of empathy, emotional reaction and compassion. I have no problem seeing differences even if in today's world that's seen as unPC.....

I'm glad we're different.....:D

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