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Tadpole in a Jar

Dazed 'n' Confused -- Who messed up?

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zepsteve   

I SAID IT BEFORE AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN IT'S ROCK N ROLL ITS NOT MEANT TO BE PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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^ You can comment all you want Aqua....I didn't say mine to mean like...I really meant it.

Sexism...well...men are from mars, women are from venus...we are different SEXES...so yeah...it was sexist. Not in a bad way though....

I mean....I'm a guy, you're a woman. There is a difference. And that can and does transform into varying forms of empathy, emotional reaction and compassion. I have no problem seeing differences even if in today's world that's seen as unPC.....

I'm glad we're different.....:D

Yeah, even I figured out that the sexes are different :D --it's discrimination on the basis of it that sexism implies. And your implication (and now I'm confused about whether you really meant it) was that the women on the board are incapable of constructive intellectual analysis, and resistant to criticism of the band. Which is ludicrous, obviously. (Try praising any given guitarist in the vicinity of the average male Jimmy Page fan!) Happy New Year, anyway.

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madison   

you can see and kinda hear it pretty good on the thread Jimmy Cam 07...wow !!!!!!!!! i know it's not the point but i woudn't care less if there were one of those things that happen at live gigs all the time....just to be there would be amazing . but i can't hear it on this recording...check it out.

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Joelmon   

:whistling:

Well....I know that Venus is closer to the sun and has HOTTER inhabitants ! :lol:

I didn't mean to be so cold, coming from way out on Mars.....:P

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^ I think it's the maternal instinct in you women. Protective. It's to be expected and natural.

I see it throughout the board when criticism comes up and takes off....in come the mama's to cuddle the boys.....:rolleyes:

Oi! I'm always up for cuddling the boys (er, well, not all of them), as it were, but I really enjoy these technical discussions--it's totally compelling to me to hear what working musicians have had to say about this particular moment and doesn't detract from my stellar experience at the O2 in the slightest bit. I agree with Thorzep--more discussion like this would be fab.

Edited by AllisonAdler

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Joelmon   

^ That's what I like to hear !

My post was a prod to get some women to say this exact thing....to get defensive of my 'accusing tone'.....:lol:

Of course I know women can be scrutinizing in the bands performances and such....I just like to hear it...and know there's interest....thanks AllisonAdler.....:D

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Fair enough. Maybe I'm just more interested in what happens when it all comes together--[ALERT! KNITTING METAPHOR COMING UP!] enjoying wearing the finished sweater and feeling cool as shit, rather than unraveling it to see how the stitches were interwoven and whether that twisted one was deliberate or a fuck up. :D

That is interesting, for sure. Some of us like to see things in terms of deliberate stitches or cock ups. It doesn't necessarily mean we like them any less. If so, why bother at all with analysis? I found the D&C section to be a cock up, saw it for what it was, and dug what Page did with it. This band intrigues me, and I love the details of what they do. If someone likes it at the detailed level, then they are detail oriented. If they like it at a surface level, just as good. There's no right or wrong there, its personal aesthetic appeal.

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artur   

Yeah I heard that very small part of the song where the mistake occured, its kinda strange but anyway...so COOL!!!

Love it, even page when he began to sing the lyrics after that little moment is a little bit lost i think, tryin to say to the other guys playin': calm down guys, calm down...^^

After KASHMIR one of my favorite song of the evening

Plant's vocal on that one are nearly perfect, i like very much when he sings

YOUUU HUURT AND ABUUSED TEEELIIN AAAALL OF YOUUR LIES

Just A M A Z I N G!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

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^ That's what I like to hear !

My post was a prod to get some women to say this exact thing....to get defensive of my 'accusing tone'.....:lol:

Of course I know women can be scrutinizing in the bands performances and such....I just like to hear it...and know there's interest....thanks AllisonAdler.....:D

This may be the most patronizing thing I've read today! :lol: (It's close, though.)

And Atlas, I'm agreeing with you about perspective--that's why I said it may be just that I prefer to come at things from that angle. Others are different, it's all cool--it's just more fun from my perpective, seems to me! ;)

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luaP   

I'm actually kinda glad the web wasn't around in the 70s can anyone imagine the posts of every release, concert.. Even my head would explode.

; )

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It was great they played dazed, i wonder if there were any mistakes as they may have been distracteed by 2 girls fighting about 20 rows from the stage! this was during the fast solo towards the end of the song. they were pulling hair etc then one moved forward and then ended up being pulled over to the side gutter, (presumably where she came from), she must have been completely out of head to do such a silly thing. i remember seeing plant april 88 in town & country smaller tighter venue there was nothing like that going on, there rarely is.

on a different note when did they last play good times? i would guess 1969?

did they really play bits of custard pie? (it was in some of the reviews) i dont think i heard any parts i think!

J

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madison   

back "in the old days" we didn't have recording devices to analyze everything....i bet at some of he fillmore or winterland shows we went to back the day there may have been some mistakes but i sure don't remember.....maybe it was all second hand smoke got to me and everything was so perfect!!!!!

and on a whole maybe everyone was more stoned than at today's concerts to give a dang about a mistake (which i still don't recall one LOL :D:D:DB)

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Lee   
It's Zurich, 29-6-80.

Yep, Kashmir went right off the rails that night, and that was with a drummer who had been playing with them for 12 years, and who just happened to be the best drummr in the world.

The stumble during D&C is pretty minor compared with that, I must admit I didn't even notice it on the night, only later when listening to the recording. I can't even begin to imagine the pressure those four guys were under, especially Jason. So they made a couple of slips here and there, big deal!

I'm not saying this shouldn't be discussed, of course it should...but it's just a minor flaw considering these were two of the best hours of my life!

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zep41   
It was great they played dazed, i wonder if there were any mistakes as they may have been distracteed by 2 girls fighting about 20 rows from the stage! this was during the fast solo towards the end of the song. they were pulling hair etc then one moved forward and then ended up being pulled over to the side gutter, (presumably where she came from), she must have been completely out of head to do such a silly thing. i remember seeing plant april 88 in town & country smaller tighter venue there was nothing like that going on, there rarely is.

on a different note when did they last play good times? i would guess 1969?

did they really play bits of custard pie? (it was in some of the reviews) i dont think i heard any parts i think!

J

I dont think GTBT was ever performed in its entirety (just parts of the song) but I could be mistaken.

Custard Pie was not played at the O2. I dont know who made up that rumor.

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Lee   
Custard Pie was not played at the O2. I dont know who made up that rumor.

The song wasn't played, but I think they wove the riff into another song at some point?

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I believe it was Jason that screwed up. The whole passage is 4 bars. The first two are with Page, Jones and Bonham and the last 2 bars are with the drum fill and then it goes into the main riff. Listen again to it and you will see that Page was right and Jason was wrong. He played 4 bars and tried to play the drum fill after to make 6 bars which is what screwed them up.

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snapper   

Bonham got lost, very lost. You can tell just by the way Page turns around and looks at Bonham and is waiting for him to get back on track, but it really takes him a long time to get it together.

Page doesn't even bother playing the descending riff during the final verse after that,

he was rattled, no doubt.

Trainwrecking that song at that crucial turnaround must have been frightening for the band. It scares the hell out of 'me' when I watch it.

Edited by snapper

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no doubt it was jason...I was listening to that part on song remains the same in my head, and jason came in a whole measure too late... you can hear page and jones going into the riff and then jimmy looks at jason with that "what the hell are you doing" look.

Jason just couldn't get out of it, so jimmy and robert pulled it out with a weird final verse section...

jason must have been feeling the weight of the world at that moment.

it's true they made those mistakes all the time with bonzo...but he was extraordinary about getting out of them...and sounding good...

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Cactus   
Bonham got lost, very lost. You can tell just by the way Page turns around and looks at Bonham and is waiting for him to get back on track, but it really takes him a long time to get it together.

Page doesn't even bother playing the descending riff during the final verse after that,

he was rattled, no doubt.

Trainwrecking that song at that crucial turnaround must have been frightening for the band. It scares the hell out of 'me' when I watch it.

I think you're being over-dramatic here....It didn't take him a long time to get it together and I see no reason why they would get frightened.....they are all very experienced musicians.

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zep41   
Bonham got lost, very lost. You can tell just by the way Page turns around and looks at Bonham and is waiting for him to get back on track, but it really takes him a long time to get it together.

Page doesn't even bother playing the descending riff during the final verse after that,

he was rattled, no doubt.

Trainwrecking that song at that crucial turnaround must have been frightening for the band. It scares the hell out of 'me' when I watch it.

When it happened at the o2 my heart sank to my stomach and I was just thinking "come on come on pull it back together........"

JPJ instantly got back on track. I think it wouldnt have been AS noticeable if Page had just stopped and let the bass and drums do their thing, but instead he let the E string (it wasnt an E note due to de tuning but we'll call it that) ring and then he added some stabs in between.

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No debate here. Jason messed it up. He went into the big fill too early. Being a drummer, I waited for it while watching it and Jason came in too early. You can tell by Jimmy's reaction. Jason didn't recover very well either. He tried to but all hell had broken loose by then. I've been there though and it's hard to cover a flub especially when going into a fill that doesn't really have a "count". That fill is more of a "feel" fill and you have to either nail it or not bother. We sometimes call it biting off more than you can chew. I'm sure it was just nerves or adrenaline. Jason had a lot of pressure on him to live up to the reputation and skills of the greatest drummer of all time so we should give him a break.

I've heard people say that Jimmy messed it up and also read that Jason told someone that it was Jimmy but I'd have to say Jimmy may be a tad more familiar with the tune having played it 3,000 times more than Jason did.

At lease they had a laugh about it onstage and didn't take it too seriously. That's the beauty of live performances.

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deluxe   

Bonham intially fucks up then by missing the turnaround but then Page fucks up and instead of keep playing on, he compensates for Bonham then it really fucks up. And then Plant didn't come in where he could have forcing them to interlude for a few more bars before Plant does. They all fucked. Any facials of Jones? He was probably the only one who was right.

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zep41   

we can argue who messed up all day long and they are all valid arguements. However, I just believe that since JPJ and Jimmy were on the same page together, Jason should have been too. So one can conclude that it was his mess up, regardless of where the counting was etc.

The fact is, it happened and at least the song didnt fall completely apart (although I think after it happened they were ALL flustered and just wanted the song to be over).

I think the more important question now is: how will they rectify this if the show is released on DVD/CD? Will they omit Dazed completely? Will they overdub? Will they use the Dazed from the night before?

Edited by zep41

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The Nobs   

i don't think any of the mistakes (and there were others...check out page's riff-playing in black dog; another one just off the top of my head - for whatever reason page wasn't playing when bonham came in with the initial drums during IMTOD) were so terribly mucked up that they should be fixed at all. if there's a dvd release, they should release the entire thing without any editing.

i doubt that would happen though because page is a perfectionist and of course plant might think that anything less than perfect might adversely affect sales of his plant/krause concert tix.

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