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blindwillie127

Trentham Gardens '73 was Multi Tracked

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I am convinced  that Southampton was not the only show multi tracked by Eddie Kramer during their '73 UK run. Not only is Trentham a superior performance  but it is recorded better than Southampton. Sounds like an unbalanced rough mix from a multi track to me. No way in hell this is a soundboard. Nope.B)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by blindwillie127

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15 minutes ago, chef free said:

I hope you're right!

I seriously have no doubt about it. The level of clarity and detail on the drums screams multi track to my ears. And, this could be the D&C Page recently spoke about listening to from '73, as opposed to Southampton as well.

Edited by blindwillie127

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This sounds great and is awesome news if true. I really, REALLY love this person of D&C. What an awesome show and I dig the echo on Plant's voice. Sounds extra gloomy.

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2 minutes ago, IpMan said:

This sounds great and is awesome news if true. I really, REALLY love this person of D&C. What an awesome show and I dig the echo on Plant's voice. Sounds extra gloomy.

Dude! I fucking dare you to play Dancing Day's from this show and crank it the fuck up. I dare ya........you'll see

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14 minutes ago, blindwillie127 said:

Dude! I fucking dare you to play Dancing Day's from this show and crank it the fuck up. I dare ya........you'll see

On my way... DO you by chance know where it is in the setlist? Time marker?

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13 minutes ago, blindwillie127 said:

Its at 30 minutes in

Wow, that was truly great. What a show!!!

Thanks buddy

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Even if it wasn't multi tracked, the Winston Remaster of this show is so good that Page could honestly release it officially without any complaints (minus Plant's voice of course). The drums have a very thunderous bottom end which makes Bonham sound absolutely massive. If Page is planning an archival chronological live release, I wouldn't complain at all if a few tracks from this show were used. Dancing Days, as you mentioned, is amazing and should definitely be one of them. B)

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2 hours ago, blindwillie127 said:

I seriously have no doubt about it. The level of clarity and detail on the drums screams multi track to my ears. And, this could be the D&C Page recently spoke about listening to from '73, as opposed to Southampton as well.

From your mouth to God's ear...

Thanks for starting this thread! :)

 

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There's no evidence that this show was multitracked, and there's no sonic evidence that the circulating soundboard source actually is a rough professional multitrack mixdown.

The clarity of the drums/bottom end, and the relative clarity of the top end, is because Winston is very good at remastering this stuff. A quick listen to the original, unremastered source will, I think, convince most folks that this is indeed just a soundboard tape. This source was in no way "recorded better" than Southampton, and it does not have any sonic benefits that aren't audible on other decent soundboard sources from the early 1973 UK/EU tour.

Of course I would love it if this were a multitrack - or, more to the point, if a multitrack existed for this show even if the circulating source is not that. But I think the chances are slim to none.

It is a great performance, though. My favorite moment is when Page plays a little bit of Voodoo Child (Slight Return) during Whole Lotta Love.

Edited by tmtomh

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10 hours ago, tmtomh said:

There's no evidence that this show was multitracked, and there's no sonic evidence that the circulating soundboard source actually is a rough professional multitrack mixdown.

The clarity of the drums/bottom end, and the relative clarity of the top end, is because Winston is very good at remastering this stuff. A quick listen to the original, unremastered source will, I think, convince most folks that this is indeed just a soundboard tape. This source was in no way "recorded better" than Southampton, and it does not have any sonic benefits that aren't audible on other decent soundboard sources from the early 1973 UK/EU tour.

Of course I would love it if this were a multitrack - or, more to the point, if a multitrack existed for this show even if the circulating source is not that. But I think the chances are slim to none.

It is a great performance, though. My favorite moment is when Page plays a little bit of Voodoo Child (Slight Return) during Whole Lotta Love.

I agree with this. While there is a lot of clarity and detail in the drums, it's mostly high freqs and there isn't very much bottom end or depth or sense of space with this recording. It sounds rather thin and flat like most sound boards from this era. Also, I highly doubt Plant would sign off on much being released from this tour as his voice was pretty rough most of the time. The band however are cracking on this show, especially Bonzo. 

I wonder if Sean could chime in and offer his 2 cents on this subject. He has a pretty good sounding unknown gen cassette copy of this tape , not sure if that's what Winston used for his source. ??

Edited by porgie66

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8 hours ago, porgie66 said:

I agree with this. While there is a lot of clarity and detail in the drums, it's mostly high freqs and there isn't very much bottom end or depth or sense of space with this recording. It sounds rather thin and flat like most sound boards from this era. Also, I highly doubt Plant would sign off on much being released from this tour as his voice was pretty rough most of the time. The band however are cracking on this show, especially Bonzo. 

I wonder if Sean could chime in and offer his 2 cents on this subject. He has a pretty good sounding unknown gen cassette copy of this tape , not sure if that's what Winston used for his source. ??

Sean can say for sure, but I believe Winston used a different source, as he did his remaster before Sean's source started circulating.

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17 hours ago, tmtomh said:

There's no evidence that this show was multitracked, and there's no sonic evidence that the circulating soundboard source actually is a rough professional multitrack mixdown.

The clarity of the drums/bottom end, and the relative clarity of the top end, is because Winston is very good at remastering this stuff. A quick listen to the original, unremastered source will, I think, convince most folks that this is indeed just a soundboard tape. This source was in no way "recorded better" than Southampton, and it does not have any sonic benefits that aren't audible on other decent soundboard sources from the early 1973 UK/EU tour.

Of course I would love it if this were a multitrack - or, more to the point, if a multitrack existed for this show even if the circulating source is not that. But I think the chances are slim to none.

It is a great performance, though. My favorite moment is when Page plays a little bit of Voodoo Child (Slight Return) during Whole Lotta Love.

I agree with some of this, but not all. I personally hear "sonic benefits" that separate this recording from other sbds during U.K./tour. And, I think you're giving way too much credit to Winston for their remastering prowess. They're good, but there's only so much you can do with remastering anything. You can make it worse, or you can make it better, but you can't make it amazing. There's some amazing shit here from what ever source this is from.

Also, I think the chances that this was multi tracked is much better than "slim to none" is because I was always baffled why they had Kramer recording them at Southampton to begin with it. I've always found that odd. Having Kramer record a couple shows though thru this local run makes much more sense to me.

This is pure speculation, but imagine this: Both Hampton & Trentham were multi tracked by Kramer. Hampton was released as a rough mix because the performance wasn't worthy of being officially released. But, Trentham was held back for a future release down the road because it was too fucking good to give it up just yet. 

 

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6 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

Sean can say for sure, but I believe Winston used a different source, as he did his remaster before Sean's source started circulating.

Good point. Winstons source was listed as a 1st gen cassette>dat. 

Edited by porgie66

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Somebody please go to 1:09:20 and crank it the fuck up for a while! Then, come back and tell me that this doesn't sound like a multi track. I'm sticking to my theory that Eddie Kramer recorded this show before Southampton.

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I think the "Voodoo Child" phrase is the best clue that Mr. Page was having a laugh with Mr. Kramer, who was probably working in the truck, basement, foh or somewhere close by. Just a guess.

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6 hours ago, tmtomh said:

Sean can say for sure, but I believe Winston used a different source, as he did his remaster before Sean's source started circulating.

Sean who? Strider? 

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1 minute ago, porgie66 said:

No, Sean The Bootlegger

Jesus. “Sean the Bootlegger”. Haha. 

Thanks George. 

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Did Eddie Kramer record Southampton? Do we know that for sure?

My understanding is there was no plan to record 22nd January, but the equipment happened to be there so they made the most of it. I’d be delighted if Stoke or anything else from 73 was multitracked, but there’s no evidence for it, sadly.

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On December 9, 2017 at 6:10 PM, soundmeister said:

I think the "Voodoo Child" phrase is the best clue that Mr. Page was having a laugh with Mr. Kramer, who was probably working in the truck, basement, foh or somewhere close by. Just a guess.

Very good connection there, glad you caught that. Its also a very good first post. Welcome to the Forum. 

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If anybody wants to gets their mind blown, I suggest putting on some headphones and listen to TSRTS from this show. B)

Edited by blindwillie127

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