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blindwillie127

Trentham Gardens '73 was Multi Tracked

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To me Bonham's drums sound just like they did the night before in Liverpool.  They sound good, but nothing like his drums sound on the 3/7/70 Montreux show we now have.  Now THAT one sounds like a direct mix-down from a multi-track to me. 

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1 hour ago, LedElvis75 said:

To me Bonham's drums sound just like they did the night before in Liverpool.  They sound good, but nothing like his drums sound on the 3/7/70 Montreux show we now have.  Now THAT one sounds like a direct mix-down from a multi-track to me. 

Not sure if Montreux '70 is a rough mixdown or just a soundboard, but I do agree with your sonic assessment/comparison of how it sounds vs Stoke and Liverpool.

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4 hours ago, tmtomh said:

Not sure if Montreux '70 is a rough mixdown or just a soundboard, but I do agree with your sonic assessment/comparison of how it sounds vs Stoke and Liverpool.

Pardon my ignorance but, were soundboard tapes recorded to reels or cassettes? Montreux is on Ampex reels. At least I remember seeing photos of 1/4 inch reels in a Kodak box. 

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6 hours ago, the-ocean87 said:

I wonder why the uploader has excluded Stairway to heaven in every of his uploaded concerts. Sucks.

Because Stairway almost always gets flagged and taken down on YouTube. Too many flags and your account will be suspended. 

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21 hours ago, tmtomh said:

Not sure if Montreux '70 is a rough mixdown or just a soundboard, but I do agree with your sonic assessment/comparison of how it sounds vs Stoke and Liverpool.

Just speculation on my part.  Rarely does Bonham's snare sound this clean and crisp...

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On 12/11/2017 at 3:48 PM, porgie66 said:

Pardon my ignorance but, were soundboard tapes recorded to reels or cassettes? Montreux is on Ampex reels. At least I remember seeing photos of 1/4 inch reels in a Kodak box. 

Anyone ?

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On 12/11/2017 at 4:48 PM, porgie66 said:

Pardon my ignorance but, were soundboard tapes recorded to reels or cassettes? Montreux is on Ampex reels. At least I remember seeing photos of 1/4 inch reels in a Kodak box. 

Not ignorance at all - I don't think anyone knows for sure when it comes to all the shows. My understanding, though, is that most (all?) Zep sbds from 1973 and earlier originated on reels, while most (all?) 1977 'boards were recorded to cassette. For 1975, I'm not sure.

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On December 11, 2017 at 10:31 AM, LedElvis75 said:

To me Bonham's drums sound just like they did the night before in Liverpool.  

Not to me they don't. Liverpool sounds flat compared to Trentham, where I can hear the drums breathing. Do an A/B comparison here and tell me they sound the same. Just play Liverpool at 5:10 and then play Trent at 5:00 and you will see a giant fucking difference

 

Edited by blindwillie127

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1 hour ago, blindwillie127 said:

Not to me they don't. Liverpool sounds flat compared to Trentham, where I can hear the drums breathing. Do an A/B comparison here and tell me they sound the same. Just play Liverpool at 5:10 and then play Trent at 5:00 and you will see a giant fucking difference

 

Yeah, Liverpool is way drier and less ambient sounding than Stoke. 

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I did a careful listen last night and, while it IS a good sounding soundboard, I hear nothing that leads me to believe that it is a "rough mixdown of a multi tracked recording".  In fact, volume fluctuations at the very beginning make me thing of the whole recording being turned up and down.  I tried to listen for individual instruments changing volume, the way they would if someone was having a go at making a "rough mix".  I didn't notice anything like that, however we can still hope...

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One thing is for sure, it's definitely a better sounding performance from the band than the one at Southampton, which is a tad lacklustre (mainly due to Plant's voice).

If it was multi-tracked & Page is working on it, then we're in for a treat.

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1973 for me is what 1977 is to Nutrocker. . Stoke has always been one I go to from the UK and always considered it a soundboard. . just my 2p but a better performance by the band than Southampton which makes it a better sonic experience 

Edited by Bozoso73

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15 hours ago, chef free said:

I did a careful listen last night and, while it IS a good sounding soundboard, I hear nothing that leads me to believe that it is a "rough mixdown of a multi tracked recording".  In fact, volume fluctuations at the very beginning make me thing of the whole recording being turned up and down.  I tried to listen for individual instruments changing volume, the way they would if someone was having a go at making a "rough mix".  I didn't notice anything like that, however we can still hope...

If "individual instruments changing volume" or not is your reason for discounting it as a rough mix then I have a question for you.Since we know that Southampton is basically a "rough mix", do you hear fluctuations in the mix that you do not hear at Trent? Just wondering. Thanks

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Stoke is just another soundboard. Just listen to Jones' bass guitar. It's just as muddy in the mix as on every other January-March 73 board. The band were playing smaller venues, and the bass was the instrument which needed the least help from the PA. Most of what you hear from Jones is the bleed through onto the other mics on the drums.  Sorry to burst the bubble, but the sound quality difference between Stoke versus Oxford, Liverpool, Bradford, or Dundee has more to do with the source (whatever generation each one came from), and the different mixes that were used to fit the venues that the band were playing on those nights. Every board sounds different, and some boards are cleaner sounding than the others from the same tour. Another example would be the March soundboard fragments. Vienna, Berlin, Hamburg, and Essen all have their own sound.

 

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1 hour ago, pluribus said:

Stoke is just another soundboard. Just listen to Jones' bass guitar. It's just as muddy in the mix as on every other January-March 73 board. The band were playing smaller venues, and the bass was the instrument which needed the least help from the PA. Most of what you hear from Jones is the bleed through onto the other mics on the drums.  Sorry to burst the bubble, but the sound quality difference between Stoke versus Oxford, Liverpool, Bradford, or Dundee has more to do with the source (whatever generation each one came from), and the different mixes that were used to fit the venues that the band were playing on those nights. Every board sounds different, and some boards are cleaner sounding than the others from the same tour. Another example would be the March soundboard fragments. Vienna, Berlin, Hamburg, and Essen all have their own sound.

 

I agree with Sensei Pluribus, Jones's low bass signal is a giveaway. Jimmy's Marshall stacks also sound quite subdued. And yes, the oomph of Bonzo's kit on the Stoke SB is stunning, but:fast forward to the U.S 73 soundboards and you'll find amongst the Buffalo's, Ft Worths, Dallas etc...the Mobile SB . IMHO again one of the pleasant surprises drum wise. Every boards sounds different, but nevertheless you can distinguish pretty easy which tour these boards come from. The Winter UK tour has that hissy and compressed 'blanket' sound. Vienna/Germany fragments sound more trebbley and aggressive. The US 73 boards have a nice balance but sound a bit duller.

OK I'll have a shot of 75 SB now :-)B)

 

Edited by duckman

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9 hours ago, duckman said:

I agree with Sensei Pluribus, Jones's low bass signal is a giveaway. Jimmy's Marshall stacks also sound quite subdued. And yes, the oomph of Bonzo's kit on the Stoke SB is stunning, but:fast forward to the U.S 73 soundboards and you'll find amongst the Buffalo's, Ft Worths, Dallas etc...the Mobile SB . IMHO again one of the pleasant surprises drum wise. Every boards sounds different, but nevertheless you can distinguish pretty easy which tour these boards come from. The Winter UK tour has that hissy and compressed 'blanket' sound. Vienna/Germany fragments sound more trebbley and aggressive. The US 73 boards have a nice balance but sound a bit duller.

11 hours ago, pluribus said:

Stoke is just another soundboard. Just listen to Jones' bass guitar. It's just as muddy in the mix as on every other January-March 73 board. The band were playing smaller venues, and the bass was the instrument which needed the least help from the PA. Most of what you hear from Jones is the bleed through onto the other mics on the drums.  Sorry to burst the bubble, but the sound quality difference between Stoke versus Oxford, Liverpool, Bradford, or Dundee has more to do with the source (whatever generation each one came from), and the different mixes that were used to fit the venues that the band were playing on those nights. Every board sounds different, and some boards are cleaner sounding than the others from the same tour. Another example would be the March soundboard fragments. Vienna, Berlin, Hamburg, and Essen all have their own sound.

 

 

Makes sense. I recognized the bass issue right off but because there are moments during this show where the bass really sounds 'in there' and also moments where the mix really comes together as well. Of course, my percieved 'movement' in the mix was probably being done in real time.

The Heavy Hitters had to come in and talk me off the ledge :D. I'm gonna crank this show up right now...and relax. 

 

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It's amazing how desperate hope allows people to believe something that their ears and the evidence should prove otherwise.

Look, I have always loved the Trentham Gardens show...it's a 1973 favourite precisely because of the ooomph of Bonham's drums. I first had it on the "A Stroke in Stoke" release (songs out of order), then got Godfatherecords "Groovin' in the Garden" with much improved sound and the songs in the correct order.

But no matter which version, and this includes the Winston remaster, it always sounds like a soundboard. No matter how great a soundboard is...March 7, 1970, Montreux, March 21, 1975 Seattle, February 12, '75 MSG...it always pales to a multitrack and only wishful thinking is keeping people from hearing the difference between Trentham Gardens and "The Song Remains the Same" official release.

I hate to rain on anyone's parade...a multitracked Trentham Gardens would be awesome. But there is no  credible photographic or sonic evidence.

On 12/9/2017 at 3:44 PM, Xolo1974 said:

Sean who? Strider? 

 

On 12/9/2017 at 3:45 PM, porgie66 said:

No, Sean The Bootlegger

Hahaha...thanks for clearing that up porgie66! I was kind of confused myself on how my name got dropped into this thread. The funny thing is that back in the day when I was taping shows and making copies for friends, they would call me 'Mr. Bootleg'.

Who is this Sean the Bootlegger guy? Is he on the Forum? Is he a reputable sort?

On 12/9/2017 at 10:38 AM, blindwillie127 said:

Somebody please go to 1:09:20 and crank it the fuck up for a while! Then, come back and tell me that this doesn't sound like a multi track. I'm sticking to my theory that Eddie Kramer recorded this show before Southampton.

What evidence do we have that says Eddie Kramer was the one who recorded Southampton? The Southampton show was January 22, 1973. According to Eddie Kramer's production timeline, he was recording Peter Frampton's "Frampton's Camel" in New York City at Electric Ladyland Studios during that time...from December 1972 to June 1973.

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7 minutes ago, Strider said:

It's amazing how desperate hope allows people to believe something that their ears and the evidence should prove otherwise.

only wishful thinking is keeping people from hearing the difference between Trentham Gardens and "The Song Remains the Same" official release.

I hate to rain on anyone's parade...a multitracked Trentham Gardens would be awesome. But there is no  credible photographic or sonic evidence.

 

 

Actually Strider, this had nothing to do with "desperate hope" as I am more than satisfied with this recording as is. I thought this could have been a ref mix from a multi, thats all.

And, I know the difference between "Trent and TSRTS official release". I was, as you know, referring to a possible ref mix as opposed to an official release.

And, you haven't "rained on anyones parade" as it has already been rained on, your just pissing on it.

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Sorry, didn't want to have a ginormous thread quoting Strider to reply to his question about Sean the Bootlegger. He's a righteous chap, and he is on the forum. He has been a part of the trading community for years and has shared many fine, low gen tapes.  He may chime in at some point here. 😉

I never thought the Stoke recording was possibly a multi track for the same reasons put forth by Pluribus and Duckman but as far as UK 73 tapes go, it's definitely more ambient than most so I can understand why it might raise ones hopes. 

Edited by porgie66

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I just hope whatever Page or John Davis are working is NOT a reissue of TSRTS (adding Thank You for example). A few of the reissues really delivered i.e. Zeppelin I with the French concert, the PG outtakes, etc. But for the most part, the reissues (IMO) were a let down. I hope Page's next project really delivers. Time will tell. 

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On 12/16/2017 at 2:27 PM, Strider said:

It's amazing how desperate hope allows people to believe something that their ears and the evidence should prove otherwise.

Look, I have always loved the Trentham Gardens show...it's a 1973 favourite precisely because of the ooomph of Bonham's drums. I first had it on the "A Stroke in Stoke" release (songs out of order), then got Godfatherecords "Groovin' in the Garden" with much improved sound and the songs in the correct order.

But no matter which version, and this includes the Winston remaster, it always sounds like a soundboard. No matter how great a soundboard is...March 7, 1970, Montreux, March 21, 1975 Seattle, February 12, '75 MSG...it always pales to a multitrack and only wishful thinking is keeping people from hearing the difference between Trentham Gardens and "The Song Remains the Same" official release.

I hate to rain on anyone's parade...a multitracked Trentham Gardens would be awesome. But there is no  credible photographic or sonic evidence.

 

Hahaha...thanks for clearing that up porgie66! I was kind of confused myself on how my name got dropped into this thread. The funny thing is that back in the day when I was taping shows and making copies for friends, they would call me 'Mr. Bootleg'.

Who is this Sean the Bootlegger guy? Is he on the Forum? Is he a reputable sort?

What evidence do we have that says Eddie Kramer was the one who recorded Southampton? The Southampton show was January 22, 1973. According to Eddie Kramer's production timeline, he was recording Peter Frampton's "Frampton's Camel" in New York City at Electric Ladyland Studios during that time...from December 1972 to June 1973.

I don't know, but with a name like that he sounds kind of shady.

Sure, he's been active/contributing in the community since the early 80's but that proves nothing.

 

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On 12/9/2017 at 5:49 PM, Xolo1974 said:

Jesus. “Sean the Bootlegger”. Haha. 

Thanks George. 

No. No "Jesus". Just "Sean".

I had to Liquid Paper your name out of the Book of Life, though. That "Haha" just cost you.

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On 12/11/2017 at 11:31 AM, LedElvis75 said:

To me Bonham's drums sound just like they did the night before in Liverpool.  They sound good, but nothing like his drums sound on the 3/7/70 Montreux show we now have.  Now THAT one sounds like a direct mix-down from a multi-track to me. 

I also think montruex 70 is more than a mere soundboard . I hear stereo separation on there that I have not heard on other zep board tapes. I could have been mixed in the same manner as the dead betty boards   separate feeds mixed down to a proper balanced with true stereo separation.  It's sounds far better then boards like Orlando hampton and Toronto . 

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