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gibsonfan159

Nitpicking Page on 3/21/75

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The battle rages on, I see...

Gibsonfan, I would never tell anyone NOT to listen to more Led Zeppelin, so if your wish is to dissect more concerts, be my guest. I was only trying to point out that since we seem to listen to Page for different reasons, our opinions are never going to mesh.

Many of the flaws you cite in 3.21.75 don't bother me at all. In fact, some I actually enjoy. I love the entire OTHAFA and Stairway solos. I have always said other guitar players make mistakes, but when Jimmy Page makes a mistake he just repeats it three times and turns it into a riff.

What ultimately makes all this rather pointless, however, is any lack of context. It's one thing to offer an exhaustive, lick-by-lick dissertation on Jimmy's playing on any particular show. But without having the visuals as a guide, any analysis is incomplete.

Maybe a bum note was caused by his foot slipping or tripping over a cable? Maybe a string broke? Maybe his guitar strap came loose? Maybe sweat caused his fingers to slip? Maybe he was bending too far? Maybe someone in the audience threw something at him? Maybe a chick flashed him?

Jimmy wasn't playing in a vacuum. There were a million things going on around him...on stage and off. Not all of his "mistakes" were the result of a decline in his playing...there could have been a valid reason for them happening.

 

Edited by Strider

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1 hour ago, Strider said:

The battle rages on, I see...

Gibsonfan, I would never tell anyone NOT to listen to more Led Zeppelin, so if your wish is to dissect more concerts, be my guest. I was only trying to point out that since we seem to listen to Page for different reasons, our opinions are never going to mesh.

Many of the flaws you cite in 3.21.75 don't bother me at all. In fact, some I actually enjoy. I love the entire OTHAFA and Stairway solos. I have always said other guitar players make mistakes, but when Jimmy Page makes a mistake he just repeats it three times and turns it into a riff.

What ultimately makes all this rather pointless, however, is any lack of context. It's one thing to offer an exhaustive, lick-by-lick dissertation on Jimmy's playing on any particular show. But without having the visuals as a guide, any analysis is incomplete.

Maybe a bum note was caused by his foot slipping or tripping over a cable? Maybe a string broke? Maybe his guitar strap came loose? Maybe sweat caused his fingers to slip? Maybe he was bending too far? Maybe someone in the audience threw something at him? Maybe a chick flashed him?

Jimmy wasn't playing in a vacuum. There were a million things going on around him...on stage and off. Not all of his "mistakes" were the result of a decline in his playing...there could have been a valid reason for them happening.

 

My vote is titties. There were a lot of random titties flopping about in the 70's and I know that would sure distract me.

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5 hours ago, IpMan said:

My vote is titties. There were a lot of random titties flopping about in the 70's and I know that would sure distract me.

jp32-85.jpg.5124b69e1041360406adc6216ac8ada3.jpg

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I’ve been listening to lots of Zep boots from every year of their career for about 20 years now and have come to the conclusion that post ’72, you have to take the good with the bad to appreciate each year. ’75 was just not a great tour. Even the shows like 2/12/75 and 3/21/75 have some cringeworthy moments but also moments of absolute brilliance. The guitar and drum breaks in the middle of ‘Dazed’ when you can hear Bonzo off mic yelling, “Again! Again! Again!’ and they’re just killing those hits. Stuff like that makes up for some of the gaffes for me.

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Sorry, I don't know where else to post this.

I didn't even remeber that mess at the end of OTHAFA. Jimmy is totally OFF in that outro. At 5:48 someone in the crowd shouts "Jimmy you suck" LOL. Found that a bit funny, because it was true on that ocasicon.

Edited by the-ocean87

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1 hour ago, the-ocean87 said:

Sorry, I don't know where else to post this.

I didn't even remeber that mess at the end of OTHAFA. Jimmy is totally OFF in that outro. At 5:48 someone in the crowd shouts "Jimmy you suck" LOL. Found that a bit funny, because it was true on that ocasicon.

He breaks a string, it's the guitar going wrong, not him. You can see him remove it right at the end.

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You can hear at about the 4:40 mark he breaks a string. Robert points it out after the song

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39 minutes ago, Crimson Avenger said:

He breaks a string, it's the guitar going wrong, not him. You can see him remove it right at the end.

Oh yes, true. Sorry, Jimmy :D

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Shit happens. I've seen Eddie Van Halen's lead come out as he slid across stage on his knees during Eruption; seen Michael Schenker's guitar strap break, so he stood the guitar upright on the stage and knelt behind it and played the whole of Rock Bottom solo like that; seen Mick Ronson hit an excruciatingly bad bum note at the height of a dramatic solo and just laugh it off; and seen the Banshees' guitarist play a whole song entirely and appallingly out of tune at a gig in his hometown - which ended to a yell of 'John, you wanker!' and laughs all round
It's all good.   
 

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On 2/6/2018 at 4:36 PM, pluribus said:

In the case of Bonham, remember that his drumming likewise included those 20 minute drum solos, and he played non-stop during those same 2-3 hour concerts that Page did. And notice that the moment that Bonham dropped the drum solo (Late 1972 to Europe 1973), his playing suddenly sounded out of this world. Add the drum solo back in for the 1973 tour in May, and he was back to a more measured approach, which he kept through 1975.  1977 was Bonham at his most technical, but remember that he was still only 28-29, which was about the same age that Page was when he peaked (72-73).  

This. I believe that's why Bonzo was so good during Europe '73. No MD.

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45 minutes ago, Brigante said:

Shit happens. I've seen Eddie Van Halen's lead come out as he slid across stage on his knees during Eruption; seen Michael Schenker's guitar strap break, so he stood the guitar upright on the stage and knelt behind it and played the whole of Rock Bottom solo like that; seen Mick Ronson hit an excruciatingly bad bum note at the height of a dramatic solo and just laugh it off; and seen the Banshees' guitarist play a whole song entirely and appallingly out of tune at a gig in his hometown - which ended to a yell of 'John, you wanker!' and laughs all round
It's all good.   
 

HA!!! So true, everyone screws up or even has whole shows where they just cannot "bring it." I have been a musician in one form or another since I was 11 when I joined my jr. High marching / concert band on trumpet (2nd chair...not bad), and then picking up guitar at 15. When I was in the school band and I would play various gig's, every once in a while I would play flat, could not find out why but it happened. In those cases, with eight other trumpets playing, I would just fake playing during the show so as to not screw up the sound. Next night I would be fine. When I started gigging as a guitar player I had similar off night's where nothing worked, flow was off, tone sucked, sticky or nervous fingers, missed cues or off time, you name it and the harder you try and fix it the more fucked up everything becomes. The problem there is, unlike a school concert band, you do not have eight other guitarists up there to cover in case you suck that night, your ass is on your own.

To this day I look back on shows I played in the 80's where I sucked and still rake myself over the coals...30+ years later. 

I mentioned somewhere else that I went to an Yngwie show back in the early 90's (I believe) and he sucked balls, could not play to save his life. He played a shortened set and apologized to the crowd. I met him after the gig in a group of about 20 fans and he was still apologizing, told us it was an off night, no excuse but sometimes the muse is just not there. This is Yngwie for crying out loud, one of the most technically proficient player on the planet and even he has an off show from time to time. Happens to the best of us.

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14 minutes ago, IpMan said:

I mentioned somewhere else that I went to an Yngwie show back in the early 90's (I believe) and he sucked balls, could not play to save his life. He played a shortened set and apologized to the crowd. I met him after the gig in a group of about 20 fans and he was still apologizing, told us it was an off night, no excuse but sometimes the muse is just not there. This is Yngwie for crying out loud, one of the most technically proficient player on the planet and even he has an off show from time to time. Happens to the best of us.

Yngwie sounds like crap most of the time because he has zero feeling and timing, and his musicality is doubtful. His acoustic playing sounds like he just started playing the guitar. Take away the distortion and you will hear the one dimensional player he is. Worst example of his playing was his solo on "Little Wing". I'll take the original (Blackmore) 100 times over him.

But your point is very true. Even the best (not counting Yngwie though) have off-nights.

One player I never heard play sloppy is Tommy Emmanuel. Best player ever IMO.

Edited by the-ocean87

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What always amazed me is that Page and Plant had so much more off-nights compared to Bonzo and JPJ, yet they get/got all the attention.

Is there one concert where Bonzo or JPJ are really off? I'm not the biggest bootleg expert, but from the 30-40 boots that I have, I don't remember one bad night from them.

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1 minute ago, the-ocean87 said:

Yngwie sounds like crap most of the time because he has zero feeling and timing, and his musicality is doubtful. His acoustic playing sounds like he just started playing the guitar. Take away the distortion and you will hear the one dimensional player he is. Worst example of his playing was his solo on "Little Wing". I'll take the original (Blackmore) 100 times over him.

But your point is very true. Even the best (not counting Yngwie though) have off-nights.

One player I never heard play sloppy is Tommy Emmanuel. Best player ever IMO.

I was a fan of his back in the day but I agree with you. As a neo-classical player he never really developed his feel, he was always just a shredder. However that particular night he could not even do that, just bad. Still feel sorry for him that night. He is supposed to be a pretty arrogant guy but that night he was quite nice, very embarrassed, and hard on himself. Of course not embarrassed enough to give everyone their money back... so in retrospect, fuck that guy :buttsmack:

:hysterical:

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12 minutes ago, IpMan said:

I was a fan of his back in the day but I agree with you. As a neo-classical player he never really developed his feel, he was always just a shredder. However that particular night he could not even do that, just bad. Still feel sorry for him that night. He is supposed to be a pretty arrogant guy but that night he was quite nice, very embarrassed, and hard on himself. Of course not embarrassed enough to give everyone their money back... so in retrospect, fuck that guy :buttsmack:

:hysterical:

Funny story for sure, haha :D

Yeah I heard he is quite arrogant. Guys like Paul Gilbert can play circles around Malmsteen and still sound musical. Funny enough, I watched bits of his Leningrad 89 concert just yesterday. I like "Rising force" or "You don't remember". Nice hard rock/metal songs. But overall, shredders impress you only when you start playing guitar. After a bit of time you realize that guitar playing is so much more than just playing scale after scale at 300 bpm.

Concerning shredders: What I find amusig is that Satriani is always supposed to be a shredder but he isn't anything like that. Just because he plays instrumental music doesn't make him a shredder. I liked his short time with Deep Purple a lot and always thought he would've fitted much better than Steve Morse.

Edited by the-ocean87

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9 minutes ago, the-ocean87 said:

Funny story for sure, haha :D

Yeah I heard he is quite arrogant. Guys like Paul Gilbert can play circles around Malmsteen and still sound musical. Funny enough, I watched bits of his Leningrad 89 concert just yesterday. I like "Rising force" or "You don't remember". Nice hard rock/metal songs. But overall, shredders impress you only when you start playing guitar. After a bit of time you realize that guitar playing is so much more than just playing scale after scale at 300 bpm.

Concerning shredders: What I find amusig is that Satriani is always supposed to be a shredder but he isn't anything like that. Just because he plays instrumental music doesn't make him a shredder. I liked his short time with Deep Purple a lot and always thought he would've fitted much better than Steve Morse.

Agreed, however Morse is one hell of a player in his own right, just not as good a fit as Satriani would have been within Purple. Very different players. Saw him (Morse) open for Rush on the Power Windows Tour in 85'. GODDAMN that man can play.

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1 hour ago, IpMan said:

Agreed, however Morse is one hell of a player in his own right, just not as good a fit as Satriani would have been within Purple. Very different players. Saw him (Morse) open for Rush on the Power Windows Tour in 85'. GODDAMN that man can play.

Yes, very true. He is an amazing player and a down to earth guy. I met him once after a guitar clinic. His solo stuff/Dixie Dregs is crazy. Unfortunately he suffers wrist problems these days. It seems practicing for 8 hours a day took its toll.

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3 hours ago, the-ocean87 said:

What always amazed me is that Page and Plant had so much more off-nights compared to Bonzo and JPJ, yet they get/got all the attention.

Is there one concert where Bonzo or JPJ are really off? I'm not the biggest bootleg expert, but from the 30-40 boots that I have, I don't remember one bad night from them.

San Diego 6/19/77 is a pretty bad night for Bonham. Plant claimed he had food poisoning, although he could have just been drunk. Either way, something is definitely not right. Listen to how he plods through Sick Again:

 

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12 minutes ago, ZepHead315 said:

San Diego 6/19/77 is a pretty bad night for Bonham. Plant claimed he had food poisoning, although he could have just been drunk. Either way, something is definitely not right. Listen to how he plods through Sick Again:

 

Wasn't there a '69 show where Bonham was too drunk to sit on the drum throne?

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11 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Wasn't there a '69 show where Bonham was too drunk to sit on the drum throne?

Indeed. Kansas City 11/5/69. IIRC, the band actually didn't have their usual instruments due to problems with transportation, so they had to borrow different ones. The Year of Led Zeppelin description of the show is hilarious:

Quote

Something's wrong. It's apparent from the moment the tape begins that something isn't quite right. At first it seems to be attributable to the recording quality, perhaps it's that the tape is running a bit slow. But as Good Times Bad Times/Communication Breakdown gets underway, the true culprit is revealed. What happened to Bonzo? His playing is erratic at best, sometimes he seems to disappear completely. By I Can't Quit You Baby it's obvious that Bonzo's odd performance is most likely due to an overzealous consumption of alcohol. He's sloppy, he shouts during the quiet passage in Page's guitar solo, and he fails to play anything during the finale, leaving a very awkward pause in place of his usual thundering showmanship.

Even Page's solos during Heartbreaker sound drunk. After a strange bow solo during Dazed and Confused, Bonzo forgets his cue to come in, leaving Jones and Page to play alone until he remembers. There are no band introductions at the beginning of How Many More Times. Bonzo is still all over the place, barely able to hold the beat. He bangs his gong relentlessly. The Hunter section is a complete mess, though somewhat interesting in its state of disarray. The "got you in the sights..." section is plagued by feedback and Plant's voice failing during the final "gun!" The end of the song falls apart completely. Mercifully, the tape ends there. A true disaster, the low point of '69. Credit must go to Page, Plant, and Jones for keeping it together through the whole show.

The tape is muffled and a bit distorted, but I wouldn't recommend listening to it anyway.

 

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7 hours ago, ZepHead315 said:

San Diego 6/19/77 is a pretty bad night for Bonham. Plant claimed he had food poisoning, although he could have just been drunk. Either way, something is definitely not right. Listen to how he plods through Sick Again:

 

Too bad, everyone else is ON that night. Page is not sloppy or meandering and even adapts to the new Bonham time signature in Sick Again. Robert is in great, strong voice.

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10 hours ago, the-ocean87 said:

What always amazed me is that Page and Plant had so much more off-nights compared to Bonzo and JPJ, yet they get/got all the attention.

Is there one concert where Bonzo or JPJ are really off? I'm not the biggest bootleg expert, but from the 30-40 boots that I have, I don't remember one bad night from them.

As others have mentioned, 11/5/69 Kansas City & 6/19/77 San Diego are definite off nights for Bonzo.  I have yet to come across a truly off night for JPJ; even shows like 3/16/73 Vienna where Plant makes comments about everyone "sending their prayers to Mr. Jones' stomach" (IIRC), he sounds perfectly fine to me.  He seems to have been the consummate professional in that regard.

It's good that Bonzo & JPJ were the two with so few off nights.  It's one thing for the singer to be a bit hoarse or for the guitarist to flub a few solos--some of Page & Plant's "off nights" are still quite enjoyable--but it's another thing all together for the drummer to be coming off the rails, even if the other three are performing quite well (e.g. San Diego '77).

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19 hours ago, ZepHead315 said:

San Diego 6/19/77 is a pretty bad night for Bonham. Plant claimed he had food poisoning, although he could have just been drunk. Either way, something is definitely not right. Listen to how he plods through Sick Again:

 

Quaaludes. They must have been eating those like candy on the '77 tour.  

 

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22 hours ago, ZepHead315 said:

San Diego 6/19/77 is a pretty bad night for Bonham. Plant claimed he had food poisoning, although he could have just been drunk. Either way, something is definitely not right. Listen to how he plods through Sick Again:

 

Funny Version :D Except for the slow tempo and the messy begining of The Rover it doesn't too bad IMO. He keeps time quite well.

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7 hours ago, blindwillie127 said:

Quaaludes. They must have been eating those like candy on the '77 tour.  

 

Well, I told Bonzo to stay away from Cosby but he just never listened to anyone.

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