paplbojo Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 45 minutes ago, Bong-Man said: If it keeps me mobile and independent as I get older, I'm all for it. I think that's a great point to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryder1978 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said: I'll have to let you have the last word on that because we know the thread will get locked lol. True dat....don't want to be banned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipper Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 10 hours ago, SteveAJones said: Yes, in most but not all respects the US is the only apple. The principles that the country was founded upon and propelled the nation to greatness are now devoid from about 50% of the population. I could see the direction the country was headed 30+ years ago and decided I preferred to live my life as an expatriate. What many Americans will see at the train station this morning: What I will see at the train station: This is so true. I ride public transportation and one thing is certain is that many of the people actually think that the price of the fare pays for the transportation, it doesnt. So many people treat the bus almost like a toilet so when I see the police arrest somebody for graffiti or acting aggressive I am very happy. The video of the people in Japan tells me they have respect for the transportation that everybody is paying for. I know tax dollars pay for part of my transportation so I am grateful for that. On one hand it is a benefit to me, but another way it benefits businesses and other commuters too when many people are not in cars clogging the roads. But the worst public transportation is the ones that cost a lot of money and dont get used that is just dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 15 hours ago, SteveAJones said: IpMan, I'm suggesting it's illogical to draw comparisons between the US, which is metaphorically speaking an apple, to Japan, or Scandanavia, or Australia, or any other "orange" on the planet. You do this all the time, whether it's mass transit, health care, guns, etc. By this, it sounds like you are saying the U.S. is too stupid to deal with the problems the rest of the world has figured out. That's quite an interesting interpretation of "American Exceptionalism". As for your "winos" comment...I ride the subways and buses every day. Winos constitute a very small percentage of riders. Maybe one out of every twenty rides is disturbed/ruined by a wino outburst and even then, they usually get kicked off or arrested or are easy to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrum Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 The poor rat missed his stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipper Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 54 minutes ago, Strider said: By this, it sounds like you are saying the U.S. is too stupid to deal with the problems the rest of the world has figured out. That's quite an interesting interpretation of "American Exceptionalism". As for your "winos" comment...I ride the subways and buses every day. Winos constitute a very small percentage of riders. Maybe one out of every twenty rides is disturbed/ruined by a wino outburst and even then, they usually get kicked off or arrested or are easy to ignore. that isnt what Steve said at all. I think he saying that in Japan they still value excetionalism, the society looks down on what we now allow here in the USA. I think it starts with them not being ashamed of their culture. Here in the USA we dont even make people learn to speak English anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 11 hours ago, SteveAJones said: I agree change is coming, but I also recognize the way the world works. For one thing, the start up costs for a fleet of self-driving trucks is astronomical. For another, most of the commercial truckers are union members, which means they yield considerable influence on politicians. You can bet lobbyists will protect their interests through stringent state and federal regulation of self-driving vehicles. Oh shit Steve, you just made me piss myself with that one! The Teamsters were effectively broken by the 80's and the vast, vast majority of truck drivers are non-union. This is the reason why there is a shortage...shitty pay + long hours + weeks or months away from family = lack of willing applicants. Like any other industry, if you pay them and treat them with respect and dignity, they will come in droves to fill those jobs, just like back in the 60's when driving a truck paid a damn good wage and benefits. Though I agree on your other points, technology changes things and we must adapt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 8 hours ago, Strider said: By this, it sounds like you are saying the U.S. is too stupid to deal with the problems the rest of the world has figured out. That's quite an interesting interpretation of "American Exceptionalism". As for your "winos" comment...I ride the subways and buses every day. Winos constitute a very small percentage of riders. Maybe one out of every twenty rides is disturbed/ruined by a wino outburst and even then, they usually get kicked off or arrested or are easy to ignore. I inferred about half of the US population are too stupid to generate real solutions. Aside from that, it isn't merely that others elsewhere have "figured it out", it's about the scope and scale of the problem. For example, the entire population of Scandanavia is less than 7 million, yet you guys will endlessly insist what works for them will work for a nation of over 330 million if we would "just do it". If your wino ratio is 1 in 20 rides consider yourself blessed. The last three times I was in Seattle after sundown public transit was an endless parade of human debris.Then again, perhaps I went looking for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 13 hours ago, SteveAJones said: I inferred about half of the US population are too stupid to generate real solutions. Aside from that, it isn't merely that others elsewhere have "figured it out", it's about the scope and scale of the problem. For example, the entire population of Scandanavia is less than 7 million, yet you guys will endlessly insist what works for them will work for a nation of over 330 million if we would "just do it". If your wino ratio is 1 in 20 rides consider yourself blessed. The last three times I was in Seattle after sundown public transit was an endless parade of human debris.Then again, perhaps I went looking for it. Come on Steve, regarding the state of public transportation in the US you kinda need to bow out at this point. There are several on this board who actually live here and use public transport successfully and obviously enjoy the experience. It would be like me visiting Tokyo a few times, having a bad experience on their trains, and then generalize the handful of negative experiences as a daily occurrence for all. Then of course there is observational bias as well. The population in Japan behaves much differently than in the US and really cannot be compared. Regarding US population considerations vs. smaller nations is simply a difference in cohort size essentially. Sure, they will be difficulties in implementation compared to a smaller population however the US is also 50 states, each state with several counties, etc. so the US is not really one big country like China per se due to major cultural, economic, and social differences between counties much less the individual states. I would have to say our biggest issue in the US is quite simply a culture based on one defining principal: Consumerism. That right there is the true god and religion in the US which trumps all else. As long as people here are allowed almost unlimited credit and are encouraged to buy, buy, buy unending amounts of useless shit to keep them in debt our problems will always be here. Consumerism is the clay foundation of our golden society and the us vs. them, red vs. blue, conservative vs. progressive is the age old wrecking ball utilized by our politicians to keep us off balance and hateful so as not to organize and challenge the status quo of money and greed above all else. Mamon is the official god of the US and consumerism it's church. If the corporations can make more money from automated cars, we will have automated cars and all other concerns will be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 39 minutes ago, IpMan said: The population in Japan behaves much differently than in the US and really cannot be compared. With that, you have made my point for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 1 hour ago, SteveAJones said: With that, you have made my point for me! Not really, just different. You obviously like a cohesive society where everyone looks the same, acts the same, and is driven toward the same purpose and there is nothing wrong with that. However, some prefer diversity and a cultural melting pot. I will agree the later is much more difficult to cooperate and presents greater challenges, but I would also argue it presents the potential greater reward as well. Plus, there are cultural goings on in Japan which though not overt, a blind eye is turned and no one talks about. Not to mention how the Japanese government, and Japanese people at large treat ethnic Koreans, even those born in Japan of which ancestors settled in Japan pre-WWII. Even though the Japanese people at large treat all non-Japanese as Gaijin, they hold a deep and special hatred for Koreans which are, to this day, openly discriminated against by both the Japanese people, and the Japanese government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 3 hours ago, SteveAJones said: With that, you have made my point for me! Yet, Japan is extremely progressive. What exactly are you dissatisfied with in the U.S.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 3 hours ago, IpMan said: simply a culture based on one defining principal: Consumerism. It should be pointed out that whenever someone complains about American consumerism, they usually skip the part where the U.S. is still by far the wealthiest nation in the world, with a military ten times larger than the next biggest. We produce so much food we have to throw half of it away. All these things tie in to why we usually lead the world with innovation and manufacturing. Don't even mention China when their economy depends mostly on us buying their plastic shit. To stay on topic, autonomous vehicles, if possible, will be possible due to consumerism. Most successful societies are consumer based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said: It should be pointed out that whenever someone complains about American consumerism, they usually skip the part where the U.S. is still by far the wealthiest nation in the world, with a military ten times larger than the next biggest. We produce so much food we have to throw half of it away. All these things tie in to why we usually lead the world with innovation and manufacturing. Don't even mention China when their economy depends mostly on us buying their plastic shit. To stay on topic, autonomous vehicles, if possible, will be possible due to consumerism. Most successful societies are consumer based. However that wealth is held by very few, the overwhelming majority of American's are in debt up to their ears. Consumerism has turned 90% of the working age population into wage-slaves of which most will never acquire wealth to pass on. That is why I laugh my ass off at the so called "death tax" which only affects 1% of the population. Personally, I was never into the whole consumerism bullshit game. I live within my means, own everything outright except for a relatively small remaining balance on my mortgage, and no credit card debt. I drive a 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee which I love and will drive until the wheels fall off. My thing is having fun with my wife & friends...experiences and sharing time with good people. The thing is, when people are up to their eyeballs in debt with no relief in sight, deep down they are depressed and unhappy which results in buying more useless shit, rinse and repeat. No wonder we have an opioid crisis and kids and adults are whacked out on anti-depressants. The US is one of the least successful countries on the planet insofar as the overall happiness and satisfaction of its citizenry. I love the idea of self-driving cars because I hate to drive (in the city that is). However I don't trust the tech at this point plus, it will likely increase the opioid crisis and drug use in general. Now you can literally have your drink, weed, pain killers, whatever and drive home too. No need to wait. Go ahead, get in, turn on, and drop out...but keep that credit card ready, there is more cool useless crap to buy. Plus your driverless car will likely have your favorite shopping spots pre-programmed, uploaded from your on-line shopping history whether you like it or not. Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 9 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said: Yet, Japan is extremely progressive. What exactly are you dissatisfied with in the U.S.? To discuss this would take this thread well off topic, so I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 5 hours ago, SteveAJones said: To discuss this would take this thread well off topic, so I won't. It's OK, I know the answer lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 1 hour ago, gibsonfan159 said: It's OK, I know the answer lol. LOL! Yeah, it doesn't take much imagination to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paplbojo Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 On 3/17/2018 at 8:53 PM, IpMan said: However that wealth is held by very few, the overwhelming majority of American's are in debt up to their ears. Consumerism has turned 90% of the working age population into wage-slaves of which most will never acquire wealth to pass on. That is why I laugh my ass off at the so called "death tax" which only affects 1% of the population. Personally, I was never into the whole consumerism bullshit game. I live within my means, own everything outright except for a relatively small remaining balance on my mortgage, and no credit card debt. I drive a 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee which I love and will drive until the wheels fall off. My thing is having fun with my wife & friends...experiences and sharing time with good people. The thing is, when people are up to their eyeballs in debt with no relief in sight, deep down they are depressed and unhappy which results in buying more useless shit, rinse and repeat. No wonder we have an opioid crisis and kids and adults are whacked out on anti-depressants. The US is one of the least successful countries on the planet insofar as the overall happiness and satisfaction of its citizenry. I love the idea of self-driving cars because I hate to drive (in the city that is). However I don't trust the tech at this point plus, it will likely increase the opioid crisis and drug use in general. Now you can literally have your drink, weed, pain killers, whatever and drive home too. No need to wait. Go ahead, get in, turn on, and drop out...but keep that credit card ready, there is more cool useless crap to buy. Plus your driverless car will likely have your favorite shopping spots pre-programmed, uploaded from your on-line shopping history whether you like it or not. Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paplbojo Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Self-Driving Uber Car Kills Arizona Pedestrian https://nyti.ms/2u3QDYx Tragic accident, first time a self driving car has killled a pedestrian. Uber has temporarily halted it's autonomous driving activities. One of the more interesting parts of this upcoming phenonena will be the new law that will be created to make this all work, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first step. Her family will likely sue Uber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 21 hours ago, paplbojo said: Self-Driving Uber Car Kills Arizona Pedestrian https://nyti.ms/2u3QDYx Tragic accident, first time a self driving car has killled a pedestrian. Uber has temporarily halted it's autonomous driving activities. One of the more interesting parts of this upcoming phenonena will be the new law that will be created to make this all work, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first step. Her family will likely sue Uber. Which might be a bit ironic as the woman was homeless. Just saw this on the news, she was crossing the street not in a crosswalk, she just pretty much decided to cross wherever she damn well pleased and likely thought, "...meh, they will stop" not realizing it was not a they but a computer. Not saying it was the woman fault, not enough info at this time, but if she indeed just darted out in front of the car it shows that the computers on these cars my not have a fast enough reaction time. So in the end, the family, if she had one, will likely sue the ever loving shit out of Uber. They may have ignored her in life (maybe with good reason), but they are not going to ignore her in death. I for one dislike Uber, they treat their employees like shit, do whatever they want, the law be damned, and screw the consumers who use their product as well. I for one would never use Uber, if I needed such a service I would call Lyft as they seem to have a better reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 22 hours ago, paplbojo said: I love it when people refuse to answer the question directed and move straight toward the "what if" and "well what about them" argument to justify their position. What is greed in the modern world? I will easily answer what this tool would not: Greed is any system whereby proper regulations are not put in place to ensure a level and fair playing field. Simple as that. Capitalism and a free market are not bad or greedy systems, they are just systems, it is certain people who GAME that system on the one hand, and governments who allow it on the other. Simple as that. We would actually have much better results overall with a greater degree of economic regulation, just ask the northern European countries, they bury us in innovation, upward mobility, economic growth and strength, and the general happiness and well being of their populations. They must be doing something right. That being said, my actual point was more in the line of personal responsibility. We as individuals cannot control the greed of corporations or other people, but we can control ourselves. Even with the cost of living going up and wages stagnating, a person or family can live a comfortable & stable life without becoming a wage-slave. Just don't buy in to all the bullshit advertising, stop buying useless shit, or shit you only use once in a blue moon. You want to take the family out once every few months to the lake? Great, rent a boat for the day. Buying a boat is stupid as fuck, same with ATV's and other toys. You can rent them when you need them and let the other guy pay for the maintenance etc. Do you want a home which can accommodate you family when they come to visit once a year? Screw that, buy a house which fits your needs the other 350 day out of the week and put your visiting friends and family up in the closest nice hotel, you will be tens of thousands of dollars ahead of the game every year. The autonomous cars are just the new form of bullshit. Why bullshit? Again, for the reasons above. These vehicles should not be allowed on the streets for testing until they can prove themselves under all conditions in a closed and secure environment. However money is to be made, people to buy off, and as a result we have a fatality. God forbid the representatives we elect, and pay, to represent us would enact serious regulations, no, no...we cannot hurt the possibility of another billionaire making a few more billion, safety and the public be damned...that guy donated to my super-PAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 hour ago, IpMan said: I love it when people refuse to answer the question directed and move straight toward the "what if" and "well what about them" argument to justify their position. What is greed in the modern world? I will easily answer what this tool would not: Greed is any system whereby proper regulations are not put in place to ensure a level and fair playing field. Simple as that. Capitalism and a free market are not bad or greedy systems, they are just systems, it is certain people who GAME that system on the one hand, and governments who allow it on the other. Simple as that. We would actually have much better results overall with a greater degree of economic regulation, just ask the northern European countries, they bury us in innovation, upward mobility, economic growth and strength, and the general happiness and well being of their populations. They must be doing something right. That being said, my actual point was more in the line of personal responsibility. We as individuals cannot control the greed of corporations or other people, but we can control ourselves. Even with the cost of living going up and wages stagnating, a person or family can live a comfortable & stable life without becoming a wage-slave. Just don't buy in to all the bullshit advertising, stop buying useless shit, or shit you only use once in a blue moon. You want to take the family out once every few months to the lake? Great, rent a boat for the day. Buying a boat is stupid as fuck, same with ATV's and other toys. You can rent them when you need them and let the other guy pay for the maintenance etc. Do you want a home which can accommodate you family when they come to visit once a year? Screw that, buy a house which fits your needs the other 350 day out of the week and put your visiting friends and family up in the closest nice hotel, you will be tens of thousands of dollars ahead of the game every year. The autonomous cars are just the new form of bullshit. Why bullshit? Again, for the reasons above. These vehicles should not be allowed on the streets for testing until they can prove themselves under all conditions in a closed and secure environment. However money is to be made, people to buy off, and as a result we have a fatality. God forbid the representatives we elect, and pay, to represent us would enact serious regulations, no, no...we cannot hurt the possibility of another billionaire making a few more billion, safety and the public be damned...that guy donated to my super-PAC. My definition of greed is different than yours. For me, greed is exploitation. It's charging $5.00 for a bottled water at an airport, $17.50 for popcorn at the cinema or $1,800 for a pit ticket to see The Rolling Stones in London (I can't wait!) Spare me the apples to oranges comparison to Scandanavia -- AGAIN. Let's restore honesty to language, shall we? There's no such thing as a homeless person. There are bums, street vagrants, winos, mental defectives, drunks, and people who don't pay their rent on time. In this instance, we have a jaywalker who became a hood ornament. She's not a fatality because people were paid off, she's a fatality because she didn't use a cross walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 50 minutes ago, SteveAJones said: My definition of greed is different than yours. For me, greed is exploitation. It's charging $5.00 for a bottled water at an airport, $17.50 for popcorn at the cinema or $1,800 for a pit ticket to see The Rolling Stones in London (I can't wait!) Spare me the apples to oranges comparison to Scandanavia -- AGAIN. Let's restore honesty to language, shall we? There's no such thing as a homeless person. There are bums, street vagrants, winos, mental defectives, drunks, and people who don't pay their rent on time. In this instance, we have a jaywalker who became a hood ornament. She's not a fatality because people were paid off, she's a fatality because she didn't use a cross walk. You Steve are not the worlds authority on what is considered and apples or oranges comparison. The US is NOT exceptional nor is some unique snowflake, it is a place, like any other place. It is better than some, worse than others, it all depends on what you like and want. Your definition of greed is a goon one and I agree with it, but it is not the only definition. There you go again with your black and white world...if only life were so simple. People become homeless for a number of reasons and your examples are pretty general and nasty. Mental defects? Jesus Steve, people do not choose to have a disability. Your term comes straight out of the eugenics book of definitions and reeks of 1930's pogroms. Again, just because she was jaywalking does not mean she deserves a death sentence and if the computer's reaction time is slower than a typical human driver, Uber is at fault BIGTIME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 2 hours ago, IpMan said: Just because she was jaywalking does not mean she deserves a death sentence and if the computer's reaction time is slower than a typical human driver, Uber is at fault BIGTIME! Do you really believe the processer is slower than a human driver? I don't. I do believe in momentum and gravity though, and when a dumbass steps right in front of a roughly 2,000 pound projectile moving at approx. 40 miles per hour they are going to become a hood ornament regardless if there is a person at the wheel or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 4 hours ago, SteveAJones said: Do you really believe the processer is slower than a human driver? I don't. I do believe in momentum and gravity though, and when a dumbass steps right in front of a roughly 2,000 pound projectile moving at approx. 40 miles per hour they are going to become a hood ornament regardless if there is a person at the wheel or not. and if you could prove that in a court of law, in regard to completely unproven technology of which is currently in a legal grey area, you sir would be the Jerry Spence, Bruce Cutler, and Clarence Darrow rolled into one very wealthy attorney. Even if they can prove the processor is faster than human reaction, they would still need to prove if the vehicle could identify the obstacle before a human could and if the processor would recognize the obstacle the same way, or more efficient than a human driver would. Now, back to reality, Uber is a wee bit fucked. Or rather, financially inconvenienced. I figure a good $10 million payout if she has family. Of course a paltry 10m or whatever the settlement will be would not even register on their quarterly statement. And the wheels roll on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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