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gibsonfan159

Nitpicking Page 1977

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On 5/12/2018 at 12:23 PM, Daeron said:

Does Jones use bass pedals during the sections (piano solo/blues jam/etc.) of No Quarter when he's on the grand piano? 

That might sound like a silly question but I'm not a musician and I don't have the¬†greatest of bootleg ears¬†ūüėÖ

You know, now that I think about it I actually don't think he uses the pedals while on the Piano. Only the mellotron. Which is why the blues jam sounds so "empty" in a way.

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1 hour ago, badgeholder said:

No mention of Keith Moon on the 23rd? 

What, how well he performed?

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21 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

You know, now that I think about it I actually don't think he uses the pedals while on the Piano. Only the mellotron. Which is why the blues jam sounds so "empty" in a way.

Yeah I've often wondered about that. I guess it would've been awkward moving the pedals back and forth as he moves between keyboards during the same song.

I suppose that would mean he probably doesn't use pedals during STH after he steps away from the mellotron.. I know he moves to the piano during the guitar solo on at least some of the versions of STH this tour (inc. I believe all of the LA shows). 

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On 5/15/2018 at 7:44 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

You know, now that I think about it I actually don't think he uses the pedals while on the Piano. Only the mellotron. Which is why the blues jam sounds so "empty" in a way.

If  you listen  to  NQ  jam  (nutcracker)  on  5/22/77  or  4/28/77  you  will  find  out  that  he  is  using  the  pedals  on  the  grand  piano.

"For the tour in 1977, Led Zeppelin hired a new keyboard technician named Ed Kolakowski, who had worked preparing live pianos for many artists (including classical pianist Artur Rubenstein and former Beatle Sir Paul McCartney). Kolakowski spent a great deal of time preparing Jones' piano setup and monitors, and Jones felt the piano was "spot on" every night. One of the unusual requirements was the making of a special leg for the piano: As the standard leg spacing would not accomodate the bass pedals underneath, Kolakowski designed a special leg machined of aluminum that would replace the wooden leg and thus allow the extra space for the bass pedals."

http://www.led-zeppelin.org/studio-and-live-gear/1802

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On 5/14/2018 at 5:22 AM, gibsonfan159 said:

Kashmir- The drums have a perfect "Levee" echo to them. 4:18, mellotron knocked out of tune. 6:30, Bonham's fills on the outro are simply devastating. Monstrous version with the mellotron low in the mix and Bonham going nuts at the end. It's hard to tell if this trumps the 6/22 version without a better source for it, but it's close. "A+".

 

As  a  tape  instrument, mellotron  cannot  get  out  of  tune. Jonesy  sometimes  dropped  the  pitch  on  purpose  to  create  this  effect  during  the  "all  i  see, turns  to  brown"  part.

The  pitch  knob  controlls  the  mellotron's  motor  speed. For  the  1977  tour, Jonesy  used  Jimmy's  double  black  mellotron  (model  "mark V"). This  mellotron  is  responsible  for  the  epic  sound  of  kashmir  in  1977, and  it  was  more  reliable  than  the  older  one.

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20 minutes ago, confounded_bridge said:

As  a  tape  instrument, mellotron  cannot  get  out  of  tune. Jonesy  sometimes  dropped  the  pitch  on  purpose  to  create  this  effect  during  the  "all  i  see, turns  to  brown"  part.

The  pitch  knob  controlls  the  mellotron's  motor  speed. For  the  1977  tour, Jonesy  used  Jimmy's  double  black  mellotron  (model  "mark V"). This  mellotron  is  responsible  for  the  epic  sound  of  kashmir  in  1977, and  it  was  more  reliable  than  the  older  one.

I was being a little sarcastic, but didn't he often (especially in 75) have a lot of problems with the motor control not producing a note in key? I read somewhere that a mellotron wasn't meant to be constantly moved around and had to be constantly adjusted before each show, even then not having correct pitch.

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I thought that the mellotron tapes were limited by their size so could only be used for short bursts at a time before resetting and that under hot lights I.e. on stage the tapes could stretch and cause the equivalent of tuning and pitch issues. Hence it’s unpredictability  on the 75 tour.

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3 hours ago, Slowfoot said:

I thought that the mellotron tapes were limited by their size so could only be used for short bursts at a time before resetting and that under hot lights I.e. on stage the tapes could stretch and cause the equivalent of tuning and pitch issues. Hence it’s unpredictability  on the 75 tour.

Yes, I remember reading that a note couldn't be played more than a couple of seconds. Sounds like a real shitty instrument. It was basically an old sampling machine.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/14/2018 at 4:22 AM, gibsonfan159 said:

Nitpicking Page 6/25/1977 (Badgeholder's Annual Meeting)

A day off to rest and back at it. Very good sound
Final Assessment- Takes a few numbers to get warmed up, but then they deliver just fine. Page and Bonham are noticeably more relaxed than the previous nights, but still do amazing things. Highlights are IMTOD, a superb SIBLY, No Quarter, Kashmir, Trampled Underfoot, a perfect Stairway and Communication Breakdown.

Thanks. Never listened to this show. I found another version of it that is better sounding than the "Badgeholders annual meeting" version.

 

Edited by the-ocean87

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19 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Yes, I remember reading that a note couldn't be played more than a couple of seconds. Sounds like a real shitty instrument. It was basically an old sampling machine.

The  tapes  were  affected by  the  strong  stage  lights  and  the  smoke  from the  audience. The  problems  are  noticeable  on  the  75  tour. A  note  could  be  played  for  about  8  seconds.

It  was  not  the  most reliable  instrument, but  nothing  can  replace  its  sound  on  kashmir, stairway  and  the  rain  song. Its  "haunting"  sound  makes  the  rain  song  orchestration  so  remarkable. The  79 and  80  versions  leave  me  cold.

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Nitpicking Page 6/27/1977 (Mike The Mike, Winston Remaster)

Good audience recording with the guitar up front and amazingly clear. If you're listening along and taking note of my time-stamps, the version I'm using for this is the 2006 Winston remaster, with the opening note of TSRTS starting at the 0:17 mark. This set also has a nice 8 song acoustic section.

TSRTS- Verses drag a little. First solo- Almost perfect, with the articulation off just a little at the end. 4:22, Page does a four note pull off that sounds awesome. Outro solo- Energy is full speed now. Maybe a little sloppy at 5:02. Plant's voice isn't as strong on this one. "B+".

Sick Again- Raunchy intro with lots of attitude. Minor flub at 0:21. Those extra notes at 0:27 sound great. First solo- Very minor sloppiness at 2:38. Played well, but didn't seem to have much passion behind it. Outro solo- 5:00, that bend didn't work at all. 6:00, turkey gobbling. This solo had some nice little runs, but was extremely erratic with no phrasing, worse than this part usually does. "B+".

NFBM- Good first half. Harmonica- Very lackluster. I know Plant has the ability to go off on a harmonica, he just seems to always play the most basic stuff on this for some reason. 3:18, awesome drum fill. Solo- 5:09, not great articulation and he fudges the end of this run. The phrasing is very good though and it's a fairly good solo. This is a good, solid version reminiscent of the album version. "B+"

OTHAFA- Excellent intro. Page's amp overdrive is through the roof when he turns up for the chorus. Solo- The dissonant beginning has a cool, spacey vibe. 3:28, I'm not really sure what he's doing here. I would say bad articulation, but he could be playing with his teeth or something. 4:32, ok, I think he's using a heavy delay effect that's distorting the sound. This solo was..different, but good. Very psychadelic. 6:55, Page hits the same chord twice here. Plant sings a passionate outro. 7:30, loses his way a bit. 7:48, flub. Apart from the weird solo and outro flubs, I really like this version, especially with the heavy guitar tone. "B+".

SIBLY- Powerful intro, with emotional guitar that isn't overdone. 2:06, Page misses that chord a bit. Solo- Page does some unique stuff on this one. Played and phrased very well. 5:32, minor chord flub. This is a very somber version, akin to the earlier versions in 70 and 71. 7:49, Bonzo says screw it, this is the last night here and goes off. Plant credits Page as "James Patrick".  Even with a few flubs, "A".

No Quarter- 2:22, very nice Plant vocal. I always appreciate when he goes the extra mile for something. Nitpicking Jones- 5:37-7:50, Jones' opening warm-up on the piano is something else here. I'm not kidding, I listened about seven times. Excellent Jones section. Blues jam- Jimmy is hesitant at first, then comes in with that atrocious guitar tone. He does some basic blues routines any amateur could do and that's about it. Then Jones comes back in with expert playing. Page had to be intimidated by his musicianship. Solo- 19:11, small flub. 20:16, a flurry of inarticulate notes that remind me of the "Fool In The Rain" solo. 22:07, starts off with a sweep and does a nice run here. 22:37, this bend was good the first two times but he overdoes it here. 23:17, bad articulation. When Page slows down he sounds good, but every time he speeds up on this solo it's a slopfest. 25:48, a pretty good series of runs. 27:13, awesome "Black Sabbath" style riff. 27:42, another awesome chorded riff. "A+" for Jones, "B+" for the version overall.

Ten Years Gone- Good beginning. First solo- Starts out great, then Page gets badly off track at 3:05 and just barely recovers. Second solo- He never gets a good flow going on this one. Third solo- He loosens up a bit, though he's still struggling some at 7:00. The delay section at 7:32 is quite effective and sounds good. Outro solo- Sloppy at 9:06. The lackluster lead playing knocks this down to a "B".

Kashmir- Page's chording gets a little messy at times, but it's an overall good performance. There is a noticeable lack of energy though. "B+".

Trampled Underfoot- Page comes in a little sluggishly on the intro. Solo- Again Page comes in like he was caught off guard and starts doing some spacey-vibed lead playing instead of shredding like he usually does. However, the spacey, delay heavy phrasing actually works quite well for this. 6:38, he gets some awesome wah runs down. The uniqueness of Page on this makes it interesting although the whole thing doesn't gel well as a whole. Still a solid "A".

Achilles Last Stand- The intro lacks the aura it usually has. Page sounds slightly out of it through the chord changes. Bonham and Jones however are very tight. First solo- He's definitely done better, but he puts this together nicely. 5:08-5:14, a little sloppy. 7:17, the delay section isn't bad, but doesn't quite hit right. 8:04, he's really struggling with the syncopation on this. 8:32, that was a pretty cool ending though. Compared to the previous performances, I'd have to knock this down to a "B" considering Page's general sloppiness.

Stairway To Heaven- 4:28, "Bonzo, I've got some good news!" Bonzo does some excellent stuff through here. Solo- He changes it up some and the phrasing seems a little off in the beginning. I'll be honest, this is some shitty playing that makes 1975 sound good. 9:33, flub. 10:10, embarrasing. He should've kicked in the delay effect and done another space vibe solo. He was obviously poisoned backstage by Jack Daniels. "C+".

WLL- Partial.

Rock And Roll- Good energy. Solo- Starts off great, then sounds like he breaks a string at 2:00. Downhill from there. "C+".


Final assessment- This show is fairly solid overall, but never really gets above average and definitely has some valleys (Stairway solo). Page isn't entirely on and the band lacks some energy and enthusiasm. I think they were ready to go home. The previous night was better performance wise. Apart from the unique Trampled Underfoot solo and the massive acoustic section, there's not much noteworthy.

I have to say I've surprised myself more with this 1977 LA run more than any of the 75 shows I did. Page absolutely did play on a pre-75 level. Maybe not as consistent as pre-75, but the old maestro was still in there in 77 on occasion. And how Mike "The Mic" Millard got such great recordings is amazing. Especially the guitar which is almost soundboard quality. This guy deserved the audio equivalent of the Nobel Peace prize.

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I have to say I've really been enjoying your analyses here. Completely agree with you on LA '77 being better than any show in '75. In fact, when all is said and done, I personally think these LA shows and the two Copenhagen warm ups are the only post '73 shows that are musts. 

Out of curiosity, since you've clearly listened to these shows in great detail, what would your "best of LA '77" compilation look like? I did one myself and I'd love to compare and contrast your list with mine. :)

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Best Of L.A. 77

TSRTS- 21st. Pure energy.

Sick Again- 23rd. The heaviness of this one sets it apart. Plus flawless lead from Page.

NFBM- 26th. It's a good, solid version with a well structured solo from Page. Though it's hard to top the energy from the 21st.

IMTOD- 25th. I may biased toward the better audio, but this also has the better solos.

OTHAFA- This one is tough for me. The solo from the 22nd is certainly phenomenal to a casual listener, but as a guitar player I don't think it's that great. It's a flurry of delay heavy triplets that Page repeats throughout. There's no impressive phrasing or lightning fast runs, plus a noticeably flubbed intro. I'd go with either the energetic 21st with Bonham going crazy or the 26th which is the most solid version. 

SIBLY- 25th. 21st, 23rd, and 25th are all exceptional versions. 21st has the energy (almost too much for this song). 23rd is near perfect with Plant sounding great. 25th has the best mood and solo. 

No Quarter- 23rd. It's the overall best version, though I prefer Jones' solo from the 27th.

Ten Years Gone- 23rd. 21st is good, but it almost rolls too fast. I think Plant might've been better on other versions, but Page's pedal-steel style licks are perfect here and give it a southern rock feel.

Kashmir- 25th. Bonham rocks the shit outta this one.

Trampled Underfoot- 25th. This one is menacing with Page playing perfectly. His riffing during Jones's solo is deadly.

Achilles Last Stand- 22nd. A couple of flubs, but it doesn't matter. The frantic, nervous pace of this one sums up the mood of the song perfectly. Plus a great series of solos.

Stairway To Heaven- 25th. The 23rd has more energy, but the 25th is just performed better overall.

Rock And Roll- 21st. A good, energetic version with Bonham sounding lively.

Communication Breakdown- 25th.

It'll Be Me- 26th.

If anyone wants to tackle the acoustic sets and solos, be my guest. That way we can assemble a complete playlist.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Best Of L.A. 77

TSRTS- 21st. Pure energy.

Sick Again- 23rd. The heaviness of this one sets it apart. Plus flawless lead from Page.

NFBM- 26th. It's a good, solid version with a well structured solo from Page. Though it's hard to top the energy from the 21st.

IMTOD- 25th. I may biased toward the better audio, but this also has the better solos.

OTHAFA- This one is tough for me. The solo from the 22nd is certainly phenomenal to a casual listener, but as a guitar player I don't think it's that great. It's a flurry of delay heavy triplets that Page repeats throughout. There's no impressive phrasing or lightning fast runs, plus a noticeably flubbed intro. I'd go with either the energetic 21st with Bonham going crazy or the 26th which is the most solid version. 

SIBLY- 25th. 21st, 23rd, and 25th are all exceptional versions. 21st has the energy (almost too much for this song). 23rd is near perfect with Plant sounding great. 25th has the best mood and solo. 

No Quarter- 23rd. It's the overall best version, though I prefer Jones' solo from the 27th.

Ten Years Gone- 23rd. 21st is good, but it almost rolls too fast. I think Plant might've been better on other versions, but Page's pedal-steel style licks are perfect here and give it a southern rock feel.

Kashmir- 25th. Bonham rocks the shit outta this one.

Trampled Underfoot- 25th. This one is menacing with Page playing perfectly. His riffing during Jones's solo is deadly.

Achilles Last Stand- 22nd. A couple of flubs, but it doesn't matter. The frantic, nervous pace of this one sums up the mood of the song perfectly. Plus a great series of solos.

Stairway To Heaven- 25th. The 23rd has more energy, but the 25th is just performed better overall.

Rock And Roll- 21st. A good, energetic version with Bonham sounding lively.

Communication Breakdown- 25th.

It'll Be Me- 26th.

If anyone wants to tackle the acoustic sets and solos, be my guest. That way we can assemble a complete playlist.

That's a pretty good list, with some interesting and unorthodox picks! B)

I've got to say that for the longest time the 25th Kashmir didn't do much for me, but I've been warming up to it lately. It's now neck and neck with the 21st for me. Ultimately, I'd still personally choose the 21st, simply because I love Plant's ad libs there.

The 26th is the show I'm least familiar with, so I'll have to do another listen for your picks there.

For IMTOD, I'd choose the 22nd simply because I've never heard a heavier or more brutal version. I'll admit I don't care for Trampled Underfoot from this tour (too slow and plodding) so I'd say it doesn't matter much to me. I'd personally go with the 23rd for SIBLY, only because I think it's the most balanced out of them all. The 21st is energetic with great vocals, while the 25th has a great solo. The 23rd is the best of both worlds to me. I picked Rock and Roll from the 23rd due to Keith Moon's guest appearance.

I picked the 23rd for Stairway for one big reason: there's a cut in the 25th version! Listen around 3:10 or so (right after Plant does his "ah ah ooohh!" vocals). It's small but noticeable.  (Okay I just listened to it again and I can't decide if it's a cut or just both Page and Jones switching up at the exact same time. Either way, it's a bit jarring. Besides, the 25th solo is great, but I detect a few flubs here and there. The 23rd is, imho, one of the all time great Stairway solos. One of Jimmy's best ever.)

Other than that your choices are identical to mine.

For the acoustic set, I'd go with:

TBOE - 27th. Great vocals from Plant and a nice warm vibe.

GTC - 27th. Ditto.

That's Alright Mama - 26th.

Going Down South/I Can't Be Satisfied - 27th.

Black Country Woman - 21st. Plant's vocals here are incredibly strong.

Bron-Y-Aur Stomp - 27th. Even with the broken string, the Dancing Days tease alone makes this a must imho.

As for the solos:

Over the Top - 23rd. Keith Moon's guest appearance makes for a nice, fun version. Though if we're talking in purely technical terms, I'd choose the 22nd. VERY brutal and powerful with a nice upbeat pace.

Noise solo - 22nd I guess since it ultimately flows into Achilles. The 27th version might work if it weren't so goddamn long! :lol:

Once again, thanks for doing these nitpicks! On to Earls Court!

Edited by ZepHead315

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9 hours ago, ZepHead315 said:

I've got to say that for the longest time the 25th Kashmir didn't do much for me, but I've been warming up to it lately. It's now neck and neck with the 21st for me. Ultimately, I'd still personally choose the 21st, simply because I love Plant's ad libs there.

I thought the 25th (and 22nd) captured the daunting, "desert" vibe more. The 21st just lacks that mood to me, though it's a great performance. 

 

9 hours ago, ZepHead315 said:

I picked the 23rd for Stairway for one big reason: there's a cut in the 25th version! Listen around 3:10 or so (right after Plant does his "ah ah ooohh!" vocals). It's small but noticeable.  (Okay I just listened to it again and I can't decide if it's a cut or just both Page and Jones switching up at the exact same time. Either way, it's a bit jarring. Besides, the 25th solo is great, but I detect a few flubs here and there. The 23rd is, imho, one of the all time great Stairway solos. One of Jimmy's best ever.)

You're right, something weird happens there. I don't think it's a cut though because Jones seems to stay on track while Jimmy is off. Or at least the guitar and keyboards are out of sync for a second. If it was a cut they would at least still be in sync. 

As far as the solos, I can't argue. Both are monumental performances. I liked the rhythm Bonham throws in at 9:36 on the 25th.

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The 23rd & 25th do indeed have great Stairway's, but I've gotta go with the 22nd for Stairway for two reasons:

1.  Plant doesn't sing "does anybody remember laughter/forests?", and;

2.  Jimmy jumps straight into the solo, rather than staying on the 12-string neck for an extra bar compared to the studio version.

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2 minutes ago, Bonzo_fan said:

The 23rd & 25th do indeed have great Stairway's, but I've gotta go with the 22nd for Stairway for two reasons:

1.  Plant doesn't sing "does anybody remember laughter/forests?", and;

2.  Jimmy jumps straight into the solo, rather than staying on the 12-string neck for an extra bar compared to the studio version.

Did he do this in any other live version of Stairway? Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head. Wonder he why decided to do it that particular night. Must have been in a good/creative mood.

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Just now, ZepHead315 said:

Did he do this in any other live version of Stairway? Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head. Wonder he why decided to do it that particular night. Must have been in a good/creative mood.

I feel like I've heard it once before, but I forget where.  Same for Plant skipping "does anybody remember laughter?"

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3 minutes ago, ZepHead315 said:

Did he do this in any other live version of Stairway? Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head. Wonder he why decided to do it that particular night. Must have been in a good/creative mood.

I think one of the '73 msg shows, unless I'm mistaken. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, paplbojo said:

I think one of the '73 msg shows, unless I'm mistaken. 

Yeah, I feel like it was in '73 too, but I wasn't going to guess one of the MSG shows.  Was it one of the European shows?

EDIT: Just flipped through every '73 show on TYOLZ, and he doesn't make any mention of either thing happening in any of the posts, which doesn't mean they didn't happen in '73...

Edited by Bonzo_fan

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