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achillestand

New "Song Remains The Same" 2CD/4LP/3DVD Deluxe Set

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Huzzah, I've found the Blu-ray Audio disc for less than £20, half the price of my cancelled Amazon UK order. I have a little wait because it's coming from abroad, can't wait to compare the sound with True HD sound of the 2007 Blu-ray, really hope it's an upgrade.

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So with all the numerous threads on this release, can anyone explain if the audio release has to be the same as the video content, and if so why? Is there some legal reason regarding the rights , which makes it imperative that they have to be the same?? Or is it just laziness/cost inefficient to do a separate audio version . The original soundtrack 2 LP didn't match the film. What's the deal?? 

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12 hours ago, The Rover said:

Oh, please stop with the "He's 74 now..."

Lots of musical artists are over 75 and still have their Sh*t together enough to put out new material and/or tour.....

Yes and lots don’t .. 

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3 hours ago, porgie66 said:

So with all the numerous threads on this release, can anyone explain if the audio release has to be the same as the video content, and if so why? Is there some legal reason regarding the rights , which makes it imperative that they have to be the same?? Or is it just laziness/cost inefficient to do a separate audio version . The original soundtrack 2 LP didn't match the film. What's the deal?? 

Jimmy wanted a true soundtrack album, as in the songs match those in the film, the original 76 album wasn't. Simple as that.

Edited by JTM

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As far as the Plant and Terry Reid stuff. Robert to me is still underrated. The heavy part of the Rain Song in SRTS is the strongest vocal I have ever seen him deliver and to me one of the greatest live vocal performances I have ever heard. 

He never gets credit for his softness and even a baritone at times -" trying to find s woman who's never never never been ...born".

Tery Reid and these other guys couldn't pull that off. Jimmy came in with the tone of the song and Robert would adjust his voice to fit. As a singer myself, very difficult to do.  Live Robert was fantastic at times, rearranging verses , using different keys ( dazed and confused ) , phrasing differently , adding lyrics and blending verses form one song into another while scatting ( Gallows Pole in TUF Earls Court).  Robert had a swagger and swing  that Jimmy needed, that Bonzo needed also. 

Robert can sing Elvis , Fats Domino and push 3 octaves higher like Chris Cornell in his prime in the next verse.  Just listen to Blue Berry Hill in LA 1970. It's frightening. Robert only gets credit for wailing and I think he realizes that criticism and I bet it bugs him a bit. He could be nasal - acoustic 1977 tour - and he could be outstanding- The Ocean SRTS. I've been listening to a lot of 1975 live stuff and Robert had to change his phrasing a lot to adjust for his ...flu?...but I think it made him a better singer overall. It was a lesson for the young lad and he had to dig deep and sing differently. Yes he fckd up and didn't nurture his vocal chords like a good musician, but that was the seventies. Only Paul Rodgers did that...but I heard he was a dick anyway!!

I hope Pagey put Robert voice and tone in a good spot on these reissues. I hated his voice in HTWWW. I actually thought it was mixed high. Jimmy mixed it and made Robert sound like Minny Mouse , with no bottom. I really hardly listen. I mean compare the Ocean in HTWWW to The Ocean in SRTS. No contest that 1973 was a better mix for Robert. 

I love Planty in SRTS. He's raw at times- Heartbreaker- yet has that swagger and Jagger like looseness which to me has been lost in current music for a long time. Long live the Frontman!!! Hard to find these days....sorry off topic at times !!! 

Blaize

nyc 

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Two vocals that I enjoy from his solo career are Big Log and Sixes and Sevens. Both have soft undertones with great feel and sudden leaps without loosing the emotion.

Rocking at Midnight is a great vocal as well.

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Regarding ordering from Amazon and AutoRip and MP3 streaming options:

As regards the Blu-Ray Audio Disc for TSRTS, there is no AutoRip or streaming offered. But, for the HTWWW Blu-ray Audio disc, I WAS able to AutoRip the tracks, ie download the MP3 tracks to my smartphone because of my purchase of HTWWW Blu-ray from Amazon.

The 2018 CD for TSRTS does offer streaming, but does not offer AutoRip.

These decisions are not made by Amazon, but the label delivering the product to Amazon.

Anyone have any ideas for why TSRTS remaster is being treated differently by the label than the HTWWW remaster??

 

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My TSRTS Blu-ray Audio disc has arrived, well worth the two week wait after release date to get it from the States at half the UK/Europe price.

I have to say I am impressed, it sounds much better than the Blu-ray film, it's 24/96 whereas the film is only 24/48, it's louder, clearer, smoother, punchier, just all around better, much easier on the old lugholes. I like that the whole thing is on one  disc uninterrupted by all the twaddle of the film, and I don't care that The Ocean is out of place. A solid 10/10 for me. The best version I have ever heard of this flawed masterpiece (we all know what those flaws are).

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2 hours ago, JTM said:

My TSRTS Blu-ray Audio disc has arrived, well worth the two week wait after release date to get it from the States at half the UK/Europe price.

I have to say I am impressed, it sounds much better than the Blu-ray film, it's 24/96 whereas the film is only 24/48, it's louder, clearer, smoother, punchier, just all around better, much easier on the old lugholes. I like that the whole thing is on one  disc uninterrupted by all the twaddle of the film, and I don't care that The Ocean is out of place. A solid 10/10 for me. The best version I have ever heard of this flawed masterpiece (we all know what those flaws are).

Amazed at all those that still are perfectly content to change CDs when you you could have the concert on -one- disc.

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Thank goodness for YouTube...

There is far more unreleased Zep material on YouTube then Jimmy has released thus far.

Google "The Knobs" for lots of treasures. Maybe Jimmy is releasing stuff to YT under an alias...

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Posted (edited)
On 9/19/2018 at 12:31 PM, The Rover said:

Amazed at all those that still are perfectly content to change CDs when you you could have the concert on -one- disc.

This is the main reason I purchased the Blu-Ray versions of the HTWWW and TSRTS reissues. Don't get me wrong - I like the high-res format, and it's good to have the surround tracks too. But to me the new, 2018 mastering sounds virtually identical on the Blu-Ray and CD versions. But the ability to put in a single disc and hear the whole thing is just such a joy and makes such a big difference when it comes to a live show, especially Zeppelin.

I also agree with those who say that the new TSRTS mastering (like the new HTWWW) sounds modestly but quite noticeably better than the prior mastering. Less fatiguing, more open, more laid back and natural. With both releases you're still stuck with Kevin Shirley's original mix, but John Davis' new mastering clearly is superior - enough of a difference that I am listening to both albums more than I used to.

As for why the TSRTS audio has to match the movie's visuals, it doesn't have to. In 2007 (or in 2018 if he wanted to re-do it all again), Page could have made an audio-only release that differed from the film's actual soundtrack, as was done in 1976.

But the 1976 version that we all love so much was in many ways a happy accident, a product of the limitations of vinyl run-times back in the day. Even the mighty Zep probably couldn't (or wouldn't) have released the 4-LP monster necessary to replicate the movie soundtrack on vinyl. That became feasible only in more recent years, when the kids of the '70s became middle-aged and had a lot more disposable income, and high-end/deluxe vinyl became a more viable market. So in '76, once they were forced to edit it down and make an audio-only 2-LP version, the decision to make custom edits and mixes for audio followed naturally and logically from that.

When TSRTS was re-done in 2007, however, not only did we have the CD medium, but the current vinyl resurgence was in its infancy (which is why Dazed was split over 2 LP sides - vinyl still was a niche afterthought at that time). With CDs, the movie soundtrack and the audio release could finally easily be synchronized and unified - it would require only a single fadeout, between CD1 and CD2. In that case the decisions also followed naturally and logically, only in the opposite direction compared with '76: If the 2007 re-do was supposed to be the ultimate version for posterity, and there were no technological barriers to producing a single ultimate version, then of course Page was going to unify the soundtrack. How can a version be ultimate or definitive if you make two different versions?

The edits mandated by the video footage are of course unfortunate (to say the least!) when it comes to No Quarter and Whole Lotta Love, but the other new edits and changes are mostly a matter of taste rather than a clear case of better vs worse.

I still think Page should have just said, f*** it, I'm unifying all the edits except I'm leaving in that glorious 2 minutes in No Quarter and that wonderful Crunge section of WLL when it comes to the audio version. But alas, he didn't.

Edited by tmtomh

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Posted (edited)

Okay, not a 4-LP set... but really 3-LP sets were being done in '76, and, had already been done by ELP in '74, for example. Shame on Mr. Page for not releasing one of the best live versions of SIBLY. He missed the mark there. You know it, and I know it. Interpreted... he did not do the best he could for the initial soundtrack release.

Edited by The Rover

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I have been listening closely to the new version compared to 2007 and my old  CD copy of the original version.  My original vinyl was worn out years ago.

All the 2007 cuts aside, this new remastering sounds fantastic to me and I am glad I got it.  As a good friend of mine has put it, rock guitar never sounded better than the 73 Page.   I read a comment in the online Pitchfork review of the remaster - it said that  Page had a sleazy, psychedelic guitar tone.  That is a rather apt description.

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1 hour ago, John M said:

I have been listening closely to the new version compared to 2007 and my old  CD copy of the original version.  My original vinyl was worn out years ago.

All the 2007 cuts aside, this new remastering sounds fantastic to me and I am glad I got it.  As a good friend of mine has put it, rock guitar never sounded better than the 73 Page.   I read a comment in the online Pitchfork review of the remaster - it said that  Page had a sleazy, psychedelic guitar tone.  That is a rather apt description.

Yes, I agree: The original 1976 mix and edits are much-loved, and with good reason. But sonically, this new 2018 remastering of the 2007 mix/edits is the best this album ever has sounded IMHO. If it weren't for those missing 2 minutes of No Quarter and that missing minute of Whole Lotta Love, it'd be sublime.

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2 hours ago, tmtomh said:

Yes, I agree: The original 1976 mix and edits are much-loved, and with good reason. But sonically, this new 2018 remastering of the 2007 mix/edits is the best this album ever has sounded IMHO. If it weren't for those missing 2 minutes of No Quarter and that missing minute of Whole Lotta Love, it'd be sublime.

Yes, although I have sour grapes about the version of Celebration Day and the missing beat in SIBLY . Those are also major disappointments. 

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Posted (edited)

I am so glad the speeded up run during the Mars section of Dazed is still there.  It was in the original movie but not in the soundtrack album if I recall correctly.  I also miss the pickup "click" after the first chord of TSRTS, as well as Plant's "here we go!" during the "sliding sliding" part at the end.  But these are quibbles, and in a cool way they remind me how well I had this committed to memory, moments in time from so long ago.

I am even getting used to the Celebration Day solo.  It sounds like it is less "doctored" than the original version?  I have heard other 73 shows  including MSG shows where he plays it like that.  The new version is fine.

What really struck me was listening to Dazed in full just after being blown away by the new Osaka 71 soundboard Dazed.  They are very different but I must say Page is at an absolute peak of fluidity and creativity during the MSG 73 version.  Page is on fire.  Somehow Jones and Bonham keep up with him - magical !   That jam before the San Francisco section was to me never better than on this version.  

Edited by John M

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The new version brings it all back from 1976.  I can recall being on a camping trip with friends in the summer of 1976 and hearing on the radio that a live Zeppelin album was coming out featuring a 27 minute Dazed and Confused.  We were so excited about that news !  We could not wait for the album and the movie.

Then the first time we saw the movie there were standing ovations at various points.  Many of us had not seen Zep yet but would see them in 1977.  When Plant said "Jimmy Page, guitar" after SIBLY a friend of mine yelled out "No shit!" as the movie theatre crowd was going ape after that song.  

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16 hours ago, porgie66 said:

Yes, although I have sour grapes about the version of Celebration Day and the missing beat in SIBLY . Those are also major disappointments. 

I agree with you wholeheartedly about Celebration Day - the final minute or so of the original was an amazing piece of music. I like having a 2nd version of that part of the song available, but I'd much rather have the current version as some kind of bonus/special feature and have the original '76 version as the main current version on the album.

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8 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

I agree with you wholeheartedly about Celebration Day - the final minute or so of the original was an amazing piece of music. I like having a 2nd version of that part of the song available, but I'd much rather have the current version as some kind of bonus/special feature and have the original '76 version as the main current version on the album.

Once I noticed those uninspired vocals on the new Celebration Day I can't listen to it. I might actually hate it worse than the No Quarter cuts.

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So glad they kept that bit at the end of Moby Dick when Plant says "John Bonham! John Bonham! John Bonham!" each time followed by a blast from Page.

I have read many  reviews over the years about how tired they were at the end of the tour and the show lacked energy.  Maybe the opening number lacks a bit of energy but the rest of the show is great.  It is 1973, not 1971.  The music is different with the new songs but they are all played with energy and verve.  And  if Dazed in this set lacks energy then I am not sure what energy is.

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On 10/7/2018 at 7:19 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

Once I noticed those uninspired vocals on the new Celebration Day I can't listen to it. I might actually hate it worse than the No Quarter cuts.

Are you sure the vocals are actually different? I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking, because while agree that the new version's vocals aren't as exciting, I thought that was because the 2007/2018 simply omits bits and pieces of the original vocal track - there's a particularly egregious muting of Plant's final yell before Page goes into his solo.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, tmtomh said:

Are you sure the vocals are actually different? I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking, because while agree that the new version's vocals aren't as exciting, I thought that was because the 2007/2018 simply omits bits and pieces of the original vocal track - there's a particularly egregious muting of Plant's final yell before Page goes into his solo.

Just checked, it's only the opening verse. The 07 remaster sounds like 1995 era Plant singing the opening, but the "Garden Tapes" site says the 76 opening verse was possibly a studio take. So I guess they put the original live recording back in, which sounds dullish to me. 

After just comparing these two, I have to say I prefer the original mix as well as the original edits. Although the remaster has the drums more up front, they've pushed the guitar over to the far right corner and sucked the treble out of the mix overall. The original sounds bright and cheery where the remaster sounds muddy and "modernized" (Much like HTWWW). I imagine the new mix really makes a difference on surround sound though, with the instruments separated more. 

Edit: Then again, the WLL remaster sounds much fuller and hits harder, although it favors the HTWWW sound a lot. So I don't know.

Edited by gibsonfan159

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47 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Just checked, it's only the opening verse. The 07 remaster sounds like 1995 era Plant singing the opening, but the "Garden Tapes" site says the 76 opening verse was possibly a studio take. So I guess they put the original live recording back in, which sounds dullish to me. 

After just comparing these two, I have to say I prefer the original mix as well as the original edits. Although the remaster has the drums more up front, they've pushed the guitar over to the far right corner and sucked the treble out of the mix overall. The original sounds bright and cheery where the remaster sounds muddy and "modernized" (Much like HTWWW). I imagine the new mix really makes a difference on surround sound though, with the instruments separated more. 

Edit: Then again, the WLL remaster sounds much fuller and hits harder, although it favors the HTWWW sound a lot. So I don't know.

Thanks for checking - much appreciated, and very interesting.

Also, I agree with the gist of what you ay here - WLL (and I would say many other tracks) are much fuller sounding and more impactful, but the '76 mix is airier and the '76 mastering is more dynamic - and of course the '76 edits for Celebration Day, No Quarter, and Whole Lotta Love are far superior. On a purely sonic level, though, I actually prefer the new 2018 Davis remaster - even though it uses the congested 2007 Shirley mix, I think Davis' mastering results in a less fatiguing and more natural sound than Shirley's own 2007 mastering.

Between the '76 and '07 masterings, though, I'll take '76 in a heartbeat.

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30 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

Thanks for checking - much appreciated, and very interesting.

Also, I agree with the gist of what you ay here - WLL (and I would say many other tracks) are much fuller sounding and more impactful, but the '76 mix is airier and the '76 mastering is more dynamic - and of course the '76 edits for Celebration Day, No Quarter, and Whole Lotta Love are far superior. On a purely sonic level, though, I actually prefer the new 2018 Davis remaster - even though it uses the congested 2007 Shirley mix, I think Davis' mastering results in a less fatiguing and more natural sound than Shirley's own 2007 mastering.

Between the '76 and '07 masterings, though, I'll take '76 in a heartbeat.

I may be in minority on this, but I like for 70s recordings to sound like they're from the 70s. Even live shows. There's something off-putting to me about both TSRTS and HTWWW and how they modernized the audio. Sure, it blows the old mixes away, but it lacks the "70s" character it's supposed to have. Call me crazy, but I like the dry ass 71 Osaka soundboard better than HTWWW. It just sounds like a true live show captured in time.

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