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Old Man

Dee Snider Of Twisted Sister Puts Down Zep

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Absolutely! Honestly, I don't think either of these guys were true jazz players, but I will stand by my opinion that Baker was more traditional in jazz than Bonzo.

I agree, Bonzo never claimed to be a jazz drummer but he always played with a swinging kind of lilt. Jones mentions it in interviews. Ginger played jazz gigs, he recorded with Charlie Haden and Bill Frisell , even did some drum battles back in the day with Art Blakey , Tony Williams. He fancies himself a jazz drummer but he is stiff and choppy , and sounds ridiculous compared to real jazz drummers. As far as FITR goes, Bernard Purdie is the originator of that beat. Bonzo used it and played it so nicely, but that's not his innovation. Maybe we should start a new thread about this topic....it probably already exists. 

Edited by porgie66

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8 hours ago, TheMadIrishman said:

It’s just a bunch of crap. So many artists have expressed their dislike toward Led Zeppelin simply because they exploded into fame and stardom, leaving behind and blanketing some of the larger bands at the time. Keith Richards said he didn’t like Zeppelin because of their sound and John Bonham was “too heavy footed” for his taste. That’s a bunch of bullshit. The Stones weren’t as good as they were in the 60’s when the 70’s rolled around. ALL of The Who HATE Zeppelin simply because they (The Who) were around longer and didn’t have nearly the same amount of fame (in fact Zeppelin got their name from a Keith Moon wise crack towards Jimmy saying “if you started a band it would go down like a lead balloon”). ANOTHER example is Ginger Baker from Cream. He states Bonham isn’t that great because he can’t swing for shit, we all know that Bonham IS the best drummer to walk this earth. And now Dee Snider is joining the barracks of hate because it took TS like 10 years to get a record contract and they were so short lived. 

Some odd comments in this thread but rather than getting involved in a Baker/Bonham debate (I love both their playing btw) I have to take exception to the point in bold.

Firstly, Keith Moon & John Bonham were good friends, Moon even joined Zeppelin on stage in LA on the '77 tour. Secondly the 'wise crack' you refer to I believe was made around the Beck's Bolero session, for the proposed band which was to include Keith Moon, Jeff Beck & Jimmy Page so it was a self deprecating joke more than a barbed comment aimed at Page.

Thinking about it all, the vast majority of rock musicians probably love Led Zeppelin, it's not worth getting hung up on the odd comment from the likes of Keith Richards or Eric Clapton & at the end of the day, they're entitled to their opinions.

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I genuinely couldn't give the vaguest what Dee Snider thinks about anything.

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15 hours ago, TheMadIrishman said:

It’s just a bunch of crap. So many artists have expressed their dislike toward Led Zeppelin simply because they exploded into fame and stardom, leaving behind and blanketing some of the larger bands at the time. Keith Richards said he didn’t like Zeppelin because of their sound and John Bonham was “too heavy footed” for his taste. That’s a bunch of bullshit. The Stones weren’t as good as they were in the 60’s when the 70’s rolled around. ALL of The Who HATE Zeppelin simply because they (The Who) were around longer and didn’t have nearly the same amount of fame (in fact Zeppelin got their name from a Keith Moon wise crack towards Jimmy saying “if you started a band it would go down like a lead balloon”). ANOTHER example is Ginger Baker from Cream. He states Bonham isn’t that great because he can’t swing for shit, we all know that Bonham IS the best drummer to walk this earth. And now Dee Snider is joining the barracks of hate because it took TS like 10 years to get a record contract and they were so short lived. 

I dont think members of the Who and Stones hate Zeppelin out of jealousy or envy. maybe they do but I cant see that's only why they don't like them

it seems reasonably to me that Keith didn't dig Bonham, why would he? Bonzo was a rock drummer and Keith plays blues , country and rock and roll. Same thing with Townsend, he also comes from a different direction from Bonzo so I don't see why he should have to love him. Bonham may be a brilliant drummer but that doesn't mean everyone has to enjoy him. its all a matter of taste. switch any of those three drummers around (Watts, Bonham and Moon) and all of the bands wouldn't work as well as they do

I have several friends who like rock music but don't like zeppelin, either because of the early Plant "baby baby" days or bonzo's heavy drumming

Ginger Baker, on the other hand, does seem to have some kind of resentment against him .who knows why? but then I saw an interview with him recently in which he said that he thought Clapton was a much better guitar player than Hendrix, so in my book Baker doesn't have much taste

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10 hours ago, Brigante said:

I genuinely couldn't give the vaguest what Dee Snider thinks about anything.

Plus 1! 

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Zeppelin's legacy will live forever. Twisted Sister is just about at 90% forgotten at this point. Probably clown makeup will be there legacy.

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8 hours ago, jsj said:

I dont think members of the Who and Stones hate Zeppelin out of jealousy or envy. maybe they do but I cant see that's only why they don't like them

it seems reasonably to me that Keith didn't dig Bonham, why would he? Bonzo was a rock drummer and Keith plays blues , country and rock and roll. Same thing with Townsend, he also comes from a different direction from Bonzo so I don't see why he should have to love him. Bonham may be a brilliant drummer but that doesn't mean everyone has to enjoy him. its all a matter of taste. switch any of those three drummers around (Watts, Bonham and Moon) and all of the bands wouldn't work as well as they do

I have several friends who like rock music but don't like zeppelin, either because of the early Plant "baby baby" days or bonzo's heavy drumming

Ginger Baker, on the other hand, does seem to have some kind of resentment against him .who knows why? but then I saw an interview with him recently in which he said that he thought Clapton was a much better guitar player than Hendrix, so in my book Baker doesn't have much taste

Anyone who thinks Clapton was better than Hendrix is certifiably insane. Opinion is one thing but that is just nuts.

Hendrix was the greatest, period. One can argue other guitarists had better technique but no one, and I mean NO ONE was as innovative on the guitar as Hendrix. The man reinvented the instrument for crying out loud. Even Clapton said Hendrix was in a class by himself.

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21 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Absolutely! Honestly, I don't think either of these guys were true jazz players, but I will stand by my opinion that Baker was more traditional in jazz than Bonzo.

I didn't say he was a jazz drummer so let me clarify things for you.

 

Bonham was a rock drummer plain and simple but he used his influences to create a new kind of Rock Drumming that was all his own. He was influenced by jazz, big band, swing and other more eccentric styles that made their way into his playing in very simple and subtle ways. They show in his timing, his bass foot, his snare and his use of the high hat so with all due respect (and this isn't direct towards any one person but folks in general) if you cannot hear the influences in his playing then I don't feel you understand him as a musician at all.

other notable songs where his influences are evident.  IMTOD,  SIBLY, ( love that squeak!) Poor Tom, Carouselambra, I'm Gonna Crawl.

 

Ps. I just listened to I'm Gonna Crawl, first time in a long while as I have been wrapped in live1975 for ages. What a fucking Awesome track!!!!  I knew it was one of my favs for a reason!  Bonham's drumming swings so effortlessly it makes me sick and then just to remind you that he's a rock drummer he gets louder and bashes you with Rock Drumming at just the right times. I'm always blown away by Zeppelin's music.

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Just to clarify, in FITR Bonzo is not playing a straight Purdie Shuffle, he is playing a modified Purdie Shuffle and a completely different rhythm at the same time...in two completely different time signatures. Let that sink in for a minute. He is playing a polyrhythm in two different time signatures, in other words, he is literally acting as two separate drummers all by himself. The only way to truly appreciate what he is doing is to listen to the isolated drum track.

Here you go

 

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Posted (edited)

It's really just a Purdie Shuffle with a high hat bark in the middle, I don't think there's any need to overstate it, he's not playing two different time signatures or acting as two drummers.

I can play Bonham's version of the shuffle quite easily & I'm not exactly Vinnie Colaiuta, he did play it beautifully though (as he did with most things).

Edited by Mook

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I'd rather listen to John Bonham's drum solos for a week than listen to one minute of Twisted Sister. They are the epitome of everything that was wrong in 80s rock. 

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8 hours ago, Mook said:

It's really just a Purdie Shuffle with a high hat bark in the middle, I don't think there's any need to overstate it, he's not playing two different time signatures or acting as two drummers.

I can play Bonham's version of the shuffle quite easily & I'm not exactly Vinnie Colaiuta, he did play it beautifully though (as he did with most things).

You are correct that Bonham is not playing two different time signatures, however he is playing two distinct, independent rhythms in 4/4 while the rest of the band is in 12/8 I believe. Not to mention the ghost notes in between both. So if you can play all that like Bonham my hats off to you sir, I am sure you must be a very highly sought after drummer.

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3 hours ago, morningson said:

I'd rather listen to John Bonham's drum solos for a week than listen to one minute of Twisted Sister. They are the epitome of everything that was wrong in 80s rock. 

Agreed, all those hair metal bands were just punks who went glam instead.  It's all garbage. Where are all those bands like RAT, WASP, KIX, CINDERELLA,  POISON and the rest today?  On the trash heap. Too me the only decent Band was Tesla.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/19/2018 at 9:48 PM, Old Man said:

I had to share this.  I saw this interview somewhere with Dee Snider talking about how boring Led Zeppelin was because of their live 30 minute drum solos.  Snider further went on to say how rock/metal fans went on to choose bands such as Twisted Sister over Zep and other more classic and '70's groups.

I want to say that:

1.  Although Zep is definitely my all time favorite group and always will be, I am an '80's teen and young adult.

2.  I like several of the '80's rock/metal bands and singers.

3.  If I should be angry about Snider's comments I am not.  I found what Dee Snider had to say about Zep nothing short of hilarious.  Seriously.

Come on.  Twisted Sister was a little boy's band.  That was the kind of stuff that 13 and some just-turned-14 year old boys listened to when they were mad at their parents and having a tantrum.  You never saw anybody 16 or over listening to Twisted Sister.  You just didn't.

There's just one more thing I have to say and please forgive me but I have to do it.  Twisted Sister couldn't have even gotten jobs as Led Zeppelin's roadies. 

Is there a youtube link to this interview?? I'd like to see it.  Dee Snider is a zep fan as far as I can gather from past interviews.  Based on his appearance on That Metal Show a few years back , the releases from I to Physical Graffiti were very influential , if I remember correctly.

 He's certainly opinionated and doesn't hold back when asked a question. I'm not a huge fan of his, but would like to see a link to the interview. 

Edited by zepscoda

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Half Hebrew Dee? Who gives a fuck what that twat has to say. Fucker never been in a real band and he looks like a transsexual orangutan. 

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On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:10 AM, porgie66 said:

Whoa, I have to chime in here. Baker is a fucking joke as a "jazz drummer". He fancied himself one but as the saying goes... he couldn't swing from a rope! 

What he said about Bonham was ... "he couldn't swing a fucking sack of shit"... that's the quote, and it's was a real dick headed, bitter thing to say. Bonham had way more swing in his phrasing than Baker. Listen to how he sets up fills with  a lilting swinging feeling, and his beat often had that swing, never stiff and rigid like Baker often sounds. Bonham had much more finesse, technical nuance, and a better sound and feel than Baker. No contest. As someone noted above, if you watch and listen to Bonzo's drumming on the RAH Moby Dick, all of those qualities are evident in spades. Baker's solos sound one dimensional and display almost no rudimental chops, they're mostly a lot of sixteenth note flailing. But that's for another thread, maybe someone should start one.

Anyway, back to this thread....who really cares what Dee Snider thinks about Zeppelin. Yawn! 

Outstanding, George!

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I wonder if Zep themselves would have dropped the drum solo at some point had they went on beyond the '80s?

I think they may have, but we'll never know. It is what it is.

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2 hours ago, Yossarian said:

I wonder if Zep themselves would have dropped the drum solo at some point had they went on beyond the '80s?

I think they may have, but we'll never know. It is what it is.

They dropped it after the curtailed '77 tour.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Yossarian said:

I wonder if Zep themselves would have dropped the drum solo at some point had they went on beyond the '80s?

I think they may have, but we'll never know. It is what it is.

 

3 hours ago, Mook said:

They dropped it after the curtailed '77 tour.

They dropped it before that, actually. There was no drum solo at the Oakland shows.

And they rarely played "Moby Dick" on the European tours. In fact, I think 1970-71 was the last time Europeans got "Moby Dick" in the setlist. The 1973 Euro tour did not have a drum solo. Nor did the 1979 or 1980 shows. Maybe the two 1975 warm-up gigs had "Moby Dick"?

Considering how Bonham put just about every trick he had used over the years into the marathon "Moby Dick" at the 1977 Seattle Kingdome show, it's possible Bonham said "That's it, boys...I have nothing left to say with a drum solo. I'm done with it." For it turned out to be the last drum solo at a Led Zeppelin concert.

The tympani intros to "In the Evening" don't really count as drum solos.

Edited by Strider

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On 10/8/2018 at 11:55 AM, Strider said:

 

They dropped it before that, actually. There was no drum solo at the Oakland shows.

And they rarely played "Moby Dick" on the European tours. In fact, I think 1970-71 was the last time Europeans got "Moby Dick" in the setlist. The 1973 Euro tour did not have a drum solo. Nor did the 1979 or 1980 shows. Maybe the two 1975 warm-up gigs had "Moby Dick"?

Considering how Bonham put just about every trick he had used over the years into the marathon "Moby Dick" at the 1977 Seattle Kingdome show, it's possible Bonham said "That's it, boys...I have nothing left to say with a drum solo. I'm done with it." For it turned out to be the last drum solo at a Led Zeppelin concert.

The tympani intros to "In the Evening" don't really count as drum solos.

Drum solos had their day but their time had passed. I much prefer just listening to isolated drum tracks when available.

 

 

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Edgar Winter Group's "Frankenstein" was the last drum solo I liked. Yeah, by 1975 I was sooooo over drum solos.

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1 hour ago, Strider said:

Edgar Winter Group's "Frankenstein" was the last drum solo I liked. Yeah, by 1975 I was sooooo over drum solos.

Anything after the jazz/big band period was nothing more than a sad imitation anyway. I did like how Peart started incorporating newer technology into his solos. There was a jazz drummer revival in the 80s that produced some impressive stuff. Then you've got the thrash/death metal drummers who do some awesome stuff. But whenever I watch a Buddy Rich video on youtube I realize how silly all the rock drummers were with their solos.

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13 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Anything after the jazz/big band period was nothing more than a sad imitation anyway. I did like how Peart started incorporating newer technology into his solos. There was a jazz drummer revival in the 80s that produced some impressive stuff. Then you've got the thrash/death metal drummers who do some awesome stuff. But whenever I watch a Buddy Rich video on youtube I realize how silly all the rock drummers were with their solos.

I don't necessarily agree with that, I think there's a place for drum solos in rock. Once you get over five minutes I think it's probably time to have a word but when you listen to The Mule on Made in Japan, Tank by ELP or watch Moby Dick at the Albert Hall on DVD, I don't think any of those three are particularly 'silly'.

As someone else mentioned above though. I think the days of such indulgence in rock music are probably gone so not much point worrying about it now.

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So, i live on long island and have bought vinyl records since the 1980s. In the 80s with mtv, i bought some twisted sister records and thought they were great in high school. Back in the vinyl record days, it was easy for me to spend money on records... So to buy a billy joel record, twisted sister record, crumbsucker record....all long island artists....before anthrax and beastie boys, was a fun time to try to listen to alot of music. 

I have to say that alot of twisted sisters sound and vibe is based on led zep, metal and punk. Its simplified or boiled down, but its very cool music...which is mostly nostalgic for me, but i think they are a very good band. 

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