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Strider

HOARDED TAPES COULD SOON SEE LIGHT OF DAY

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I paid another visit to the record shop over the weekend and I see that both the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan have issued yet more archival live albums. The Stones have a San Jose 1999 gig from the No Security tour out on CD and DVD/Blu-Ray. This follows on the heels of the BBC recordings and 1969 Hyde Park, 1971 Marquee Club, 1971 Leeds, 1973 Brussels, 1975 LA Forum, 1978 Ft. Worth, 1981 Hampton, 1982 UK, 1990 Tokyo Dome, 2014 Hyde Park, 2016 Sticky Fingers Fonda Theatre, and I'm probably forgetting some others. Some of these are little more than fixed up soundboards.

Bob Dylan, on the heels of an officially released massive box of 1966 tour tapes (including audience tapes as well as soundboards and multitracks), has come out now with another collection of live performances from the early 1960s.

The reason is that after 50 years a performance goes into public domain in Europe if the record company does not issue anything before the 50 years are up. That is why the 1966 box appeared in 2016 and why Bob Dylan started the official Bootleg Series releases in the first place. He is up to Volume 14 now.

The Dylan releases are even called The Copyright Collection. They were purely issued to establish copyright protection.

It's not just the Stones and Dylan. Every trip to the record shop yields another crop of live recordings, radio shows, etc. being released after being available only on bootlegs for years. Allman Brothers Band, VU, Lou Reed, Tom Petty, Iggy Pop, David Bowie...the list keeps growing.

This is 2018. Which means if Led Zeppelin does not release anything from 1968 this year, then anyone hoarding a 1968 concert tape could make a deal with a label to release the tape without worrying about being taken to court. Especially since the setlists in 1968 were predominantly cover songs anyway. Only one or two songs were Led Zeppelin originals.

Next year, hoarders of 1969 shows (with the exception of the Paris Olympia show that came with the first album remaster) will be able to count down the days when they can get paid legally for their tapes.

We could be in for a bonanza of unreleased Led Zeppelin shows finally seeing the light of day.

Edited by Strider

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I still think that despite the passage of time there are hoarded tapes out there, unheard by more than a handful of people. I know anyone can claim anything on the 'net, but I saw a bloke claim his mate recorded Zeppelin at the Bridge Country club, Canterbury in December '68. Might have a likeliness rating of 1/10, but you never know.

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38 minutes ago, Strider said:

The reason is that after 50 years a performance goes into public domain in Europe if the record company does not issue anything before the 50 years are up.

Wait, let me see: European artists and their performances in Europe, or their perfomances anywhere in the world? Or, e.g. would a hoarder be able to sell a LZ tape of an 69 US concert to an european label?

39 minutes ago, Strider said:

We could be in for a bonanza of unreleased Led Zeppelin shows finally seeing the light of day.

Where is the champagne!?

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2 hours ago, Strider said:

I paid another visit to the record shop over the weekend and I see that both the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan have issued yet more archival live albums. The Stones have a San Jose 1999 gig from the No Security tour out on CD and DVD/Blu-Ray. This follows on the heels of the BBC recordings and 1969 Hyde Park, 1971 Marquee Club, 1971 Leeds, 1973 Brussels, 1975 LA Forum, 1978 Ft. Worth, 1981 Hampton, 1982 UK, 1990 Tokyo Dome, 2014 Hyde Park, 2016 Sticky Fingers Fonda Theatre, and I'm probably forgetting some others. Some of these are little more than fixed up soundboards.

Bob Dylan, on the heels of an officially released massive box of 1966 tour tapes (including audience tapes as well as soundboards and multitracks), has come out now with another collection of live performances from the early 1960s.

The reason is that after 50 years a performance goes into public domain in Europe if the record company does not issue anything before the 50 years are up. That is why the 1966 box appeared in 2016 and why Bob Dylan started the official Bootleg Series releases in the first place. He is up to Volume 14 now.

The Dylan releases are even called The Copyright Collection. They were purely issued to establish copyright protection.

It's not just the Stones and Dylan. Every trip to the record shop yields another crop of live recordings, radio shows, etc. being released after being available only on bootlegs for years. Allman Brothers Band, VU, Lou Reed, Tom Petty, Iggy Pop, David Bowie...the list keeps growing.

This is 2018. Which means if Led Zeppelin does not release anything from 1968 this year, then anyone hoarding a 1968 concert tape could make a deal with a label to release the tape without worrying about being taken to court. Especially since the setlists in 1968 were predominantly cover songs anyway. Only one or two songs were Led Zeppelin originals.

Next year, hoarders of 1969 shows (with the exception of the Paris Olympia show that came with the first album remaster) will be able to count down the days when they can get paid legally for their tapes.

We could be in for a bonanza of unreleased Led Zeppelin shows finally seeing the light of day.

I doubt it will happen. For example let's take the April 24th Fillmore more show, all Jimmy Page has to do is release it digitally at midnight on 23rd April 2019 for five minutes on a web site of his choosing and then delete it, bingo, copyright extended.  I can't see the flood some may be expecting. 

Edited by JTM

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1 hour ago, Autumn Moon said:

Wait, let me see: European artists and their performances in Europe, or their perfomances anywhere in the world? Or, e.g. would a hoarder be able to sell a LZ tape of an 69 US concert to an european label?

Where is the champagne!?

Anywhere, not just European performances. The Dylan releases are from all over...U.S., Europe and Australia.

12 minutes ago, JTM said:

I doubt it will happen. For example let's take the April 24th Fillmore more show, all Jimmy Page has to do is release it digitally at midnight on 23rd April 2019 for five minutes on a web site of his choosing and then delete it, bingo, copyright extended.  I can't see the flood some may be expecting. 

Aw man, don't give him any ideas, haha. 

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17 minutes ago, Strider said:

Anywhere, not just European performances. The Dylan releases are from all over...U.S., Europe and Australia.

Aw man, don't give him any ideas, haha. 

This is actually bad for the torrent sites that have a no official material policy. We could  possibly see  ROIO/Bootlegs disappearing from some P2P platforms daily.

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I'm wondering if EVSD's (supposed) upcoming release of the 9/29/71 soundboard has anything to do with this. There's been rampant speculation/argument on Royal Orleans over whether the samples we are receiving are actually a leaked multitrack, perhaps indicating a How the East Was Won release in the near future. With the 50th anniversary having already begun, there's heightened interest in what Jimmy will release, as well as bootlegs in general. In just the past year alone we've seen a brand new audience source from 6/21/77, as well as a Mr. Peach recording of 9/29/71 surface. I would think that this is the last opportunity not only for Jimmy but also for the tapers to release something. Let's face it, they aren't getting any younger, so it's now or never. Even if the official releases turn out to be disappointing, I have a feeling that there will be a swell of unearthed tapes/releases to satisfy us diehards. At least, I hope so. :smiley_pray:

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Copyright in the sound recording of the performance might expire after 50 years, but what about publishing royalties? If someone banged out a tape as soon as the sound recording copyright expired, wouldn't they still be liable for publishing royalties?

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I'm very skeptical that there are very many, if any, tapes awaiting to see the light of day, either from hoarders gaining a conscience (or financial motivation), or a fortuitous discovery someone's attic.  What reason is there to believe in such a scenario?  I can't really see one.

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17 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

I'm very skeptical that there are very many, if any, tapes awaiting to see the light of day, either from hoarders gaining a conscience (or financial motivation), or a fortuitous discovery someone's attic.  What reason is there to believe in such a scenario?  I can't really see one.

Agreed 100%.   Sure a few more may surface in our lifetime but not many.    I remember when I was getting into Zeppelin live and uncirculated tapes were turning up every few months and bands like Hendrix and the Doors has reached the bottom of the well and no new or very few if any new shows turned up.   Fast forward 25 years we’re at that point with Zeppelin.     

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I very much doubt that the equipment( recorders and tapes) available in 1968/69 for example would a) provide a sonic listening experience and b) be in any state to playback. 

Edited by chillumpuffer

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6 minutes ago, chillumpuffer said:

I very much doubt that the equipment( recorders and tapes) available in 1968/69 for example would a) provide a sonic listening experience and b) be in any state to playback. 

And yet the Dylan box has audience tapes from 1966. There are Velvet Underground sets out there from 1968 and 1969. The April 24 and 27 '69 Fillmore West tapes sound fine to me. So does the Texas Pop Festival and Montreux.

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I wonder what Jimmy might be hoarding. That to me is the great last/best hope. Maybe he has a few things no one has considered. Maybe the LA 77 run soundboards are on his shelf or something similar that would constitute a lot of peoples "Holy Grails". Who knows. And yeah, I know, even if he has a swathe of live stuff that is an unknown to the rest of us, there is no indication anything will be released. But to me - that presents the last/best hope. He may well reach a point where he considers it better that some of it be cleaned up and released.

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Pardon my naivete, but how does unauthorized live material fall under any copyright law? Shouldn't the studio releases still cover any live performance? Aren't bootlegs still illegal before or after 50 years?

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5 hours ago, rm2551 said:

I wonder what Jimmy might be hoarding. That to me is the great last/best hope. Maybe he has a few things no one has considered. Maybe the LA 77 run soundboards are on his shelf or something similar that would constitute a lot of peoples "Holy Grails". Who knows. And yeah, I know, even if he has a swathe of live stuff that is an unknown to the rest of us, there is no indication anything will be released. But to me - that presents the last/best hope. He may well reach a point where he considers it better that some of it be cleaned up and released.

Yes Page is the person who probably has many shows that have never been heard.  

Most certainly he has many live tapes from 1968-1972.   Could be many soundboards like all of USA 1971 and Australia and USA 1972.   He could have soundboards from many 1970 USA and Germany shows. 

He’ll never release these....

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1 hour ago, Sticks of Fire said:

Yes Page is the person who probably has many shows that have never been heard.  

Most certainly he has many live tapes from 1968-1972.   Could be many soundboards like all of USA 1971 and Australia and USA 1972.   He could have soundboards from many 1970 USA and Germany shows. 

He’ll never release these....

That's my point. If he doesn't release them, even if for a brief moment to establish the copyright the way Bob Dylan did with his concert tapes, then once the 50 years is up, it's fair game.

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1 minute ago, Strider said:

That's my point. If he doesn't release them, even if for a brief moment to establish the copyright the way Bob Dylan did with his concert tapes, then once the 50 years is up, it's fair game.

True....but Page may be the only person with those tapes so they are his alone.   

But maybe he would get all the money himself if they are released.   Not Atlantic or anyone else 

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I just find it puzzling that for every year of Led Zeppelin's existence we have a heap of tapes, audience and soundboard, except for 1968.

For 1968 we have zilch...apart from the Gonzaga. Doesn't that strike anyone as odd?

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Not really as they were a new band and I don't think the Yardbirds had much a following with bootleggers.   Taping concerts didn't get serious until 1969

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...if Page has all these tapes, why is he a frequent visitor to the music shops in Tokyo scarfing up bootleg CD's?

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5 hours ago, drpete said:

Not really as they were a new band and I don't think the Yardbirds had much a following with bootleggers.   Taping concerts didn't get serious until 1969

 

I don't think that's entirely true...

If the Yardbirds didn't have much of a following with bootleggers, then what about the existence of the audience recordings that exist of the Yardbirds from the spring of 1968? And the early Zeppelin recordings from 1969 that were captured when the band was still unknown? I have a substantial number of audience recordings of various bands from the mid-1960s circa 1966/1967,  and I think that's when people really became serious about capturing recordings of rock concerts.

The point is, it's highly likely that at least some type of recording of the band exists from the Fall of 1968. And why such a recording hasn't surfaced - is anybody's guess.

Edited by mysticman560

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9 hours ago, Strider said:

I just find it puzzling that for every year of Led Zeppelin's existence we have a heap of tapes, audience and soundboard, except for 1968.

For 1968 we have zilch...apart from the Gonzaga. Doesn't that strike anyone as odd?

From what I have read over the years I am not surprised.  Who would have thought to record them in fall 1968 when they were unknown as a group?  And in England in 1968 they played small venues with little press.  Then they signed the big record deal and announced a tour of the US, so that whetted the appetite of fans in America, where by 1968 the Yardbirds were bigger than back home in England.  Starting with early January 1969 we have tapes - that was right after the Atlantic signing made its way through the press and radio, and then the record was released with great US FM radio advance play and support and it just exploded from there.

So in retrospect I am not at all surprised there are no other 1968 tapes.  What does suprise me is the excellent high quality photo shoot of their very first ever live gig.  Now that is some kind of historical document too! 

Edited by John M
typos

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