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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, apantherfrommd said:

Awesome post, IpMan. I'm curious. In form, were Page and Plant better in the 90's or during the 02 show?

Kashmir was perfect during the 02 show, but the composition was different. So it's not fair or possible to compare, but I'm just wondering. To be honest, the 02 Kashmir was the best and closest to studio as I've ever heard live.

JSJ is spot on Andy. IMO Page was frigging amazing from the fall of 95' - 98', easily at 73' level playing ability but with the eclecticism and dissonance of 75' on as a bonus. This is what Page WOULD have sounded like in 77' had he been somewhat sober, off the H, and chose to practice on occasion. I cannot say it enough that this era for Page's playing is my favorite, even better than his Zeppelin performances at times but easily on par with 73' for sure.

Plant's vocals always seem to vary from show to show but I thought he was stronger in 98' than 95' however in general he gave a better performance at the O2 since he sang as mentioned above, in the original style of the songs vs. his newer style he did on the P&P tours.

So, because I am a guitar wank and prefer Michael Lee to Jason (just barely, no offense), I prefer the P&P tours to the O2 performance. Jimmy played well but was too restrained and way too safe. Maybe it was because of the broken finger, maybe because he was afraid to screw up but he was nowhere near as ballsy, badass, fluent, on fire, and confident as he was during P&P, especially from fall 95' on.

Edited by IpMan

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^ Plus it was Pages first real public performance in many years and with hefty expectations. I thought they were about as good as ever could be expected for a one off full length concert.  Loved all of the P/P shows we saw from 95-98. But having JPJ in the mix makes it completely different than P/P.  Jason vs Michael Lee is personal preference.  For that show Jason was the right and the only move, obviously.  Page was sober for the first show ever, according to him, so that counts for something, along with the pressure and injured finger. Great night! Still bewildered they didn’t play anything off ITTOD - especially “In The Evening”.

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13 hours ago, jsj said:

Page was at his most consistent high quality playing on the 98 tour than any tour since 75. he was good at the O2, certainly good enough to make up for the mishaps of live aid and Atlantic shows, but he was nowhere near as on form as he was in 98

just my opinion obviously

Many thanks jsj.

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On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 2:05 PM, hummingbird69 said:

I have been listening to Led Zeppelin for 45 years and I have 35 years listening to all the live stuff I could get my hands on. So, whether you like my opinion or not it is at the very least informed.   I will take Zeppelin from any year or a Page and Plant show before I go to the 02 for listening pleasure.  

Your loss! ;)

 

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On 10/4/2018 at 5:53 AM, SteveAJones said:

For Robert, I think one could argue the 02 Arena show was superior to most if not all of his performances on the 1998 World Tour.

In both instances, we're probably splitting hairs either way. After all, for the 02 Arena show we know Jimmy was favoring his injured finger and Robert's range wasn't what it is in the '90s. 

After listening to some of the O2 show again, I must say, that I think JPJ gives the best performance of the four.

There are some real magical moments on the O2 soundtrack for me. Real goose bumps. JPJ is as consistently good as he ever was, that 1/2 of the greatest rhythm section that ever was. Add to that, the moments of brilliance from Robert & Jimmy, and this recording is a must have for me. Jason is adequate and competent, but, he never surpasses his father in any way. It was only after Bonham's death that I eventually came to the realization of what a supremely integral part of Led Zeppelin that Bonzo was.

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I think this show was a success on a few levels. 

But the way they promoted the album and dvd, which thank God they released, so cool....but for them to be going through any lead singer drama stuff, the rock band thing...was not necessary to explain not playing further. 

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I think the show was fantastic for what it was and in fact only serves to remind people of just how great Zep were. A lot of comparisons are made with other bands who have kept touring over the years (The Stones) or reformed (Eagles) etc. But Zeppelin were never that type of band. They played to a much higher level of difficulty, intensity, dexterity, improvisation, exploration, stretching, pushing, searching all the time. To be frank, most of the music of the Stones and the Eagles is very easy to play, no matter how old you are. At the 02 you had men in their 60's replicating what they did in their 20's. It was never going to be the same experience. But it was wonderful in other ways. They looked cool. They reminded us of the power of live human music. They demonstrated what an art form it was to create that power and composition. And many of the songs are fantastic on the 02 DVD. There were times when each of them reminded the world that they were otherworldly. A freakish alignment of the stars brought them together. I was nervous about how they would perform especially based on their post 80 performances. 

But on the point about further shows. I also feel it is a tremendous pity that they didn't get to do one last journey together. For a number of reasons. 1. They would have probably have gotten even better with more shows, loosed up, lost the nerves, felt the freedom to be who they once were. 2. They would have probably added one or two or several other songs to the set as they went adding to the library of live interpretations. We all have favourites that they didn't get to play. 3. They might even have completed one or two of the epic tracks that emerged over the years from vaults that sound like they could have been amazing if they had finished them. Or bring to life one or two of the tracks that didn't quite work on the later albums but just needed a couple of live run outs to get there. They may even have been inspired to do another album.

Of course they owe us nothing. But an opportunity was lost. They're standing has been restored. Many of the critical media over the years, with the benefit of hindsight and time have finally got what Led Zeppelin were. And how it's never been replaced or surpassed in it's genre. The whole punk virus dinosaur thing now looks like what it was, a complete load of nonsense. Nobody ever criticised Miles Davis for his thirty minute improvisations. The world finally understood that they were at the core, musicians stretching the boundaries of music, not politics or social issues. Just music. Creativity. And a final tour would have just amplified that and nailed it on the head once and for all, Page is without question the greatest rock guitarist of all time. Plant an extraordinary musical vocalist. JPJ as is often said, totally underestimated as a bass player - the guy is sensational and Jason did a great job replicating his fathers ingenuity but neither he nor anyone would claim he's the same thing. Doesn't mean he's not brilliant at what he does. And we've lived through decades of some huge pyrotechnic audio visual extravaganzas at concerts that all came after Zeppelin. It would have been amazing to see them in that modern setting with all the technical capability to bring their vision to life as it never had been before.  Pity. But still epic.

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On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:45 PM, chef free said:

No matter what you think, Robert Plant owes you nothing.  I imagine that you have already gotten years of pleasure listening to him sing. All things must pass.  It's a good thing to learn how to accept this painful truth gracefully...

I wholeheartedly agree!

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It wasn't really Led Zeppelin, not for Robert Plant, not for many, it was a one off show for Ahmet Ertegun, done with the only acceptable replacement of John Bonham, for Robert to atleast call it Led Zeppelin for one night.

Add all the bad memories, the fact that his voice changed, the pressure of keeping the quality every night and all the tragedies that happened and it's even more clear why Robert wanted to continue his very successful solo carrer, which he would most likely have without Led Zeppelin, on a smaller scale. It also shows his class and that he is not a cheap money grabber.

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16 hours ago, SamoKodela said:

It wasn't really Led Zeppelin, not for Robert Plant, not for many, it was a one off show for Ahmet Ertegun, done with the only acceptable replacement of John Bonham, for Robert to atleast call it Led Zeppelin for one night.

Add all the bad memories, the fact that his voice changed, the pressure of keeping the quality every night and all the tragedies that happened and it's even more clear why Robert wanted to continue his very successful solo carrer, which he would most likely have without Led Zeppelin, on a smaller scale. It also shows his class and that he is not a cheap money grabber.

Lets not forget his surprise success with Alison Krauss. Bad timing all around for a Led Zeppelin resurgence.

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I think if they switched out dazed and confused with achilles last stand...it would have rounded that show much better. 

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7 hours ago, kirchzep27 said:

I think if they switched out dazed and confused with achilles last stand...it would have rounded that show much better. 

Absolutely not, DAC is one of LZ's most  iconic numbers whereas ALS is not (imho), it's alright but nowhere near as great as Dazed. 

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AGREED!  "Dazed" needed to be on the set list, but I wish they would have substituted something from ITTOD in place of MMH!  LZ IV was more than represented in that set list!

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15 minutes ago, Stryder1978 said:

AGREED!  "Dazed" needed to be on the set list, but I wish they would have substituted something from ITTOD in place of MMH!  LZ IV was more than represented in that set list!

I would've happily switched out Misty Mountain Hop for In The Evening, and Trampled for Achilles. According to Mick Wall Plant vetoed anything "too heavy metal", which meant no Immigrant Song and no ALS.

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...it's hard for me to imagine Plant even attempting "Immigrant Song" in any form other than the version he does on his solo tours. 

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2 hours ago, 76229 said:

I would've happily switched out Misty Mountain Hop for In The Evening, and Trampled for Achilles. According to Mick Wall Plant vetoed anything "too heavy metal", which meant no Immigrant Song and no ALS.

Me two I would have like to have seen ITE rather than MMH 

I liked the way they did it during the page and plant days with a bit from the latter part of carouselambra in it.

Always thought that this way of doing the two songs together would have been the way Zeppelin would have done it had things been different.

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 8:48 AM, 76229 said:

I would've happily switched out Misty Mountain Hop for In The Evening, and Trampled for Achilles. According to Mick Wall Plant vetoed anything "too heavy metal", which meant no Immigrant Song and no ALS.

... and that is my overall issue... Robert's way or the highway.. That's why we got Paul Martinez and Phil Collins at Live Aid ... That's why we got no JPJ on the Unledded, and WIC.. collaborations.. I get it to a degree. Robert had been through quite a lot and has had a very successful solo career. He is used to being the boss..

But if anyone is going to run the band.. I'd much prefer it be Jimmy.

Too heavy! Bollocks.. we're talking Led Zeppelin.  Not Fleetwood Mac.       

Edited by the chase

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36 minutes ago, the chase said:

... and that is my overall issue... Robert's way or the highway.. That's why we got Paul Martinez and Phil Collins at Live Aid ... That's why we got no JPJ on the Unledded, and WIC.. collaborations.. I get it to a degree. Robert had been through quite a lot and has had a very successful solo career. He is used to being the boss..

But if anyone is going to run the band.. I'd much prefer it be Jimmy.

Too heavy! Bollocks.. we're talking Led Zeppelin.  Not Fleetwood Mac.       

He [Plant] really doesn’t want to make loud music anymore,” (Jones explained). “We do. I mean, I love acoustic music, but it doesn’t stop me from turning something up.”   Spin magazine 2008

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Huge thing missing.... IMO the rehearsal(s)were more interesting and creative than the main show. Page actually rattled off some amazing pitch shifted/oddly echoed solos. Someone did say Robert was half speaking the words, but even so that made it more interesting when he got hot and bothered. And, , as mentioned, Jones has lost nothing. Not a ironclad scenario for more

shows, but Robert really seemed to have more excuses than good explanations for no more shows. I don't really buy the comparisons with the other older bands because although they may only have half the original members, I have seen shows,

they play a lot, are well rehearsed( sometimes better than in their heyday !!), often play songs never played when they were much younger, and don't always use auto-tune, etc. But, Zep's music, it's true, on stage the players need laser focus.

 

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10 hours ago, Mithril46 said:

Robert really seemed to have more excuses than good explanations for no more shows.

It was a one off tribute to Ahmet Ertegun, therefore no explanation was ever necessary.

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Spot on, Steve.

Artists shouldn't need 'excuses' for not doing things they don't want to do anyway.

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Well, absolutely , a one off. He never said anything about a tour. Of course he can do what he wants, and he does. Pretty much

since FON Robert in most cases insists upon working with guitarists who are rather mediocre Yes men. And Jimmy insists upon insisting that a solo career will be forthcoming. I just pointed out that the rehearsals for the 07' show themselves struck

a match. But, I must admit, Robert got very unfairly hammered because of the whole de-tuning thing, and lost in this insult was

that Robert still blows away the vast majority of rock vocalists. Robert had to change his style/approach even during Zeppelin

after the surgery, and I even can appreciate that "period" of downtime. I mean, after 07' some famous musicians chimed in rather brutally about Robert. Also open for discussion, had Jimmy played the show like the 88' Atlantic Records debacle, he

would have been savaged and NOT have been into a tour just for the money. But that's of course why he really stepped up to

the plate and did almost whatever necessary to ensure at least a decent outcome.

 

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1 hour ago, Mithril46 said:

Well, absolutely , a one off. He never said anything about a tour. Of course he can do what he wants, and he does. Pretty much since FON Robert in most cases insists upon working with guitarists who are rather mediocre Yes men. And Jimmy insists upon insisting that a solo career will be forthcoming. I just pointed out that the rehearsals for the 07' show themselves struck a match. But, I must admit, Robert got very unfairly hammered because of the whole de-tuning thing, and lost in this insult was that Robert still blows away the vast majority of rock vocalists. Robert had to change his style/approach even during Zeppelin after the surgery, and I even can appreciate that "period" of downtime. I mean, after 07' some famous musicians chimed in rather brutally about Robert. Also open for discussion, had Jimmy played the show like the 88' Atlantic Records debacle, he would have been savaged and NOT have been into a tour just for the money. But that's of course why he really stepped up to the plate and did almost whatever necessary to ensure at least a decent outcome.

As a solo artist Robert only brought in band mates to compliment his artistic direction at the time. It's insulting to those guitarists to suggest they were merely brought in to serve as mediocre yes men. In fact, all of those guitarists are accomplished musicians with their own merits. Buddy Miller, for one example, is phenomenal. Now some of them may not be my cup of tea but I get why they got the gig over bigger names that may have been available.

As to the suggestion that the rehearsals were hotter than the live show itself, well I think that's rather silly but it's an opinion to which you are entitled.

As to open for discussion, had Jimmy played...well it kinda ain't cause he kinda didn't. He delivered.

    

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IN RETROSPECT:

BOTTOM LINE 

We were LUCKY the 3 were still around AND felt healthy enough to DO IT.

It NEEDED to happen to wrap things up for them on a positive note.

It happend & it happend even better than my imagination could come up with.

Plants voice throttled up almost beyond belief.

Of course we would LOVE more shows &/or material & none of them ever said they would refuse ever getting together in the future.

HOWEVER:

If i could ask from them  ONE more REALISTIC thing: 

It would be to do a  SPECIAL TREET for the hardcore fans:

small live show(s) of ONLY DEEPER CUTS ! 

No Stairway ,no Black dog etc...

instead do:

out on the tiles, custard pie,dyer maker, the rover,in the light etc...

its even not impossible that some additional new creativity could generate!

Amen! 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, z1inspector said:

IN RETROSPECT:

BOTTOM LINE 

We were LUCKY the 3 were still around AND felt healthy enough to DO IT.

It NEEDED to happen to wrap things up for them on a positive note.

It happend & it happend even better than my imagination could come up with.

Plants voice throttled up almost beyond belief.

Of course we would LOVE more shows &/or material & none of them ever said they would refuse ever getting together in the future.

HOWEVER:

If i could ask from them  ONE more REALISTIC thing: 

It would be to do a  SPECIAL TREET for the hardcore fans:

small live show(s) of ONLY DEEPER CUTS ! 

No Stairway ,no Black dog etc...

instead do:

out on the tiles, custard pie,dyer maker, the rover,in the light etc...

its even not impossible that some additional new creativity could generate!

Amen! 

 

 

Yep

something else, no matter how small. Before they’re physically dead at least. Something positive. 

The 02 was great but it all feels a bit negative now. Almost acrimonious between them. Ironic considering one of the ideas about not going back was to protect the legacy by not making a total balls up of it. It’s now a total balls up because after it’s definitely over we are going remember how this crap felt. 

Seriously for me it will loom large

 

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