Eddie Van Halen slamming Page

[badgeholder]

yeah, to be clear, Pluribus may very well be correct, we just don't know for sure who the hell Millard is referring to. Just because he has a friend named Ed doesn't mean he's "Eddie", I was just throwing it out there as a possibility - not a fact

[SteveAJones]

17 hours ago, pluribus said:

Hardly. That’s how these stories get started in the first place. People draw conclusions based on guesses. “Millard had a friend named Ed? That must be it.” Millard also had a friend named Jim and a friend named Dave, who pushed his prop wheelchair. Maybe that Jim was referring to Jimmy Page and that Dave was referring to David Lee Roth? 

I believe it substantiates my recollection that Listen to This, Eddie is what Millard himself had written on a copy of one of his cassettes. I too could swear I've seen a photograph of the tape in question and familiar enough with Millard's "artwork" to determine it was authentic.  

[SteveAJones]

45 minutes ago, badgeholder said:

yeah, to be clear, Pluribus may very well be correct, we just don't know for sure who the hell Millard is referring to. Just because he has a friend named Ed doesn't mean he's "Eddie", I was just throwing it out there as a possibility - not a fact

I think we can all agree if Millard wrote Listen To This, Eddie on a cassette copy of a recording that entered circulation circa 1978 he sure as hell would not have been referring to Eddie Van Halen.

[ZepPhan-WR]

I've always heard Millard hated boot labels.  So who came up with the title in the first place? I would guess its the first boot label that named it LTTE. 

I don't think Millard told them what title to use.  For the researchers out there.. what was the first boot of this show using the title LTTE? and which boot label?

Edited November 17, 2018 by ZepPhan-WR

[Strider]

1 hour ago, SteveAJones said:

I believe it substantiates my recollection that Listen to This, Eddie is what Millard himself had written on a copy of one of his cassettes. I too could swear I've seen a photograph of the tape in question and familiar enough with Millard's "artwork" to determine it was authentic.  

This is what Badgeholder and I  were referring to previously...a cassette cover written in Mike Millard's writing "Listen to this, Eddie". Which means the bootleg companies took the title from that and did not make it up themselves.

Of course, the problem lies in dating the cassette with that artwork. Was it an early copy he made in 1977-78 or was it a copy he sent out in the 1980s?

Like I said, my copies of the Millard tapes of June 21 and June 23 came in cassette form. Not via direct from Mike Millard but from a friend who knew a friend...that sort of thing. Third or second-generation, at best.

The vinyl album of "For Badgeholders Only" that I bought in 1980 was not from Millard's tape and I didn't get a vinyl of "Listen To This, Eddie" until 1988.

[SteveAJones]

35 minutes ago, ZepPhan-WR said:

For the researchers out there...what was the first boot of this show using the title LTTE? and which boot label?

 

As I recall, the first vinyl boot titled Listen To This, Eddie was pressed and released by Rock Solid Records. RSR began in 1985, so it would have come out circa 1985-88. Of course, the recording itself circulated amongst traders on cassettes for several years prior to that first vinyl release.

[the chase]

3 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

I think we can all agree if Millard wrote Listen To This, Eddie on a cassette copy of a recording that entered circulation circa 1978 he sure as hell would not have been referring to Eddie Van Halen.

There is a Wikipedia page on “Listen To This Eddie”. This points to both Eddie’s (Kramer and VH) as the possible Eddie. It states that the “broken hand” quote came from a Guitar World interview with Eddie Van Halen from 1981. So if there’s any way to prove Listen To This Eddie goes back further than 1981.. it most likely wouldn’t be EVH.. 

[Strider]

Something else that has crossed my mind. Everyone says that Mike Millard hated the bootleggers and the release dates on most of his tapes seem to bear this out.

With one exception, every Mike Millard show I got was via trading for cassette tapes long before they showed up pressed on vinyl or cd in the mid-'80s and 1990s. The Led Zeppelin 1975 Long Beach Arena and L.A. Forum, 1977 San Diego and L.A. Forum shows; Pink Floyd 1975 Sports Arena, 1975 Eric Clapton, 1977 Yes. 

I had cassettes of these for years before they ever came out on the bootleg market.

That one exception was the Rolling Stones at the Forum in 1975. Growing up in Orange County in the 1970s there were several places to get bootlegs...Raspberry Roach in Huntington Beach and most memorably, Beggar's Banquet in Anaheim (city of Disneyland and the Angels). When my family moved to Riverside, I surprisingly found another bootleg vendor in the middle of hicksville.

Right after the Stones tour finished in July of 1975, Beggar's Banquet had for sale the L.A. Forum bootlegs put out by Idle Minds..."L.A. Friday" and "Who Went to Church This Sunday". It was a quicker turnaround than when the Led Zep "Destroyer" bootleg appeared in 1977 after the Cleveland show.

The owner of Beggar's Banquet was one Vicky Vinyl, aka Andrea Waters. Jim Washburn was her partner and Idle Minds was her bootleg baby. She openly bragged about procuring Mike Millard's tapes of the Rolling Stones at the Forum in 1975. Perhaps she bragged a little too loudly, as her shop got raided by the FBI several times.

So how did she get them so quick if not from Mike Millard himself? Anyone who has knowledge and cares to shed light on this, please do.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Strider

[Pb!]

6 hours ago, Strider said:

Something else that has crossed my mind. Everyone says that Mike Millard hated the bootleggers and the release dates on most of his tapes seem to bear this out.

With one exception, every Mike Millard show I got was via trading for cassette tapes long before they showed up pressed on vinyl or cd in the mid-'80s and 1990s. The Led Zeppelin 1975 Long Beach Arena and L.A. Forum, 1977 San Diego and L.A. Forum shows; Pink Floyd 1975 Sports Arena, 1975 Eric Clapton, 1977 Yes. 

I had cassettes of these for years before they ever came out on the bootleg market.

That one exception was the Rolling Stones at the Forum in 1975. Growing up in Orange County in the 1970s there were several places to get bootlegs...Raspberry Roach in Huntington Beach and most memorably, Beggar's Banquet in Anaheim (city of Disneyland and the Angels). When my family moved to Riverside, I surprisingly found another bootleg vendor in the middle of hicksville.

Right after the Stones tour finished in July of 1975, Beggar's Banquet had for sale the L.A. Forum bootlegs put out by Idle Minds..."L.A. Friday" and "Who Went to Church This Sunday". It was a quicker turnaround than when the Led Zep "Destroyer" bootleg appeared in 1977 after the Cleveland show.

The owner of Beggar's Banquet was one Vicky Vinyl, aka Andrea Waters. Jim Washburn was her partner and Idle Minds was her bootleg baby. She openly bragged about procuring Mike Millard's tapes of the Rolling Stones at the Forum in 1975. Perhaps she bragged a little too loudly, as her shop got raided by the FBI several times.

So how did she get them so quick if not from Mike Millard himself? Anyone who has knowledge and cares to shed light on this, please do.

This likely was the incident that made Mike hate bootleggers.

 

[SteveAJones]

11 hours ago, the chase said:

There is a Wikipedia page on “Listen To This Eddie”. This points to both Eddie’s (Kramer and VH) as the possible Eddie. It states that the “broken hand” quote came from a Guitar World interview with Eddie Van Halen from 1981. So if there’s any way to prove Listen To This Eddie goes back further than 1981.. it most likely wouldn’t be EVH.. 

Some tape traders do seem to recall the title preceded the first vinyl bootleg titled "Listen to This, Eddie" released by Rock Solid Records. (RSR did not exist until 1985).  If it did, it may have been on account of others (to include my own) recollection that Listen to This, Eddie is what Mike had written on a copy of the recording. To recap, I suggest these are the most likely possibilities, in no particular order:

A. Millard writes (as "artwork") Listen to This, Eddie on a cassette copy of the recording he sends to a friend allegedly named Ed F. That title then ultimately enters trading circles and is eventually used by Rock Solid Records for their vinyl release. It's chosen because it's already established yet also works very well as a clever reference to EVH (and his critical comments) and/or Eddie Kramer. 

B. Rock Solid Records comes up with Listen to This, Eddie as a title for their vinyl release on their own. It is inspired by EVH's comments in 1981.

C. Rock Solid Records comes up with Listen to This, Eddie as a title for their vinyl release on their own. It is inspired by the phenomenal sound quality of the recording and Led Zeppelin's long-standing association with engineer Eddie Kramer.

In any event, RSR and other bootleggers were often quite clever in the titles they would use, with many inspired by lingo, language or common understandings enthusiastic bootleg buyers would pick up on. The underground, almost secret society aspect of Led Zeppelin and bootlegs in general is what made them so appealing at the time.   

-----------------------

"Jimmy Page is an excellent producer. Led Zeppelin 1 and Led Zeppelin 2 are classics. As a player. He's very good in the studio. I never saw him play well live. He's very sloppy. He plays like he's got a broken hand and he's two years old. But if you put out a good album and play like a two-year-old live. What's the purpose?" -- Eddie Van Halen, Guitar World (January 1981 issue)

[ZepHead315]

I also don't buy the Eddie Van Halen theory. Page's playing at this show is damn good for 1977, but I would never characterize it as one of his best ever performances. Heartbreaker was a huge influence on Van Halen, but Page's solo at this show is pretty sloppy. I doubt Eddie would be impressed. If anyone is the star of this show, it's Bonham, not Page.

With regard to Eddie Kramer, didn't he claim that Led Zeppelin couldn't be captured well live and/or they were terrible live? I don't know if he was just referring to 77, or the band's live career as a whole, but I guess this is a bit more plausible than the Van Halen theory, but again some things don't add up. When did he make those comments? Would the average boot collector in the 80s have known or cared about what Eddie Kramer had said about Led Zeppelin? Sure the sound on LTTE is incredible for an audience recording, but compared with official release quality, it is still a step down. Plus, it wasn't as though this was the first amazing sounding recording of Led Zeppelin. We'd already had Blueberry Hill, Going to California, Seattle 73, and several other great audience recordings out before the LTTE show was even played.

I suppose of the two the Kramer theory is more plausible, but again neither makes much sense. I too think that the title came from a cassette that Millard gave to a friend. Did he have any other special titles for his cassettes? All the images I've seen of them just have "Recorded by Mike Millard", the arena where the band played, and the date of the concert.

[blindwillie127]

22 minutes ago, ZepHead315 said:

With regard to Eddie Kramer, didn't he claim that Led Zeppelin couldn't be captured well live and/or they were terrible live? I don't know if he was just referring to 77, or the band's live career as a whole, but I guess this is a bit more plausible than the Van Halen theory, but again some things don't add up. When did he make those comments? Would the average boot collector in the 80s have known or cared about what Eddie Kramer had said about Led Zeppelin? 

I suppose of the two the Kramer theory is more plausible, but again neither makes much sense. I too think that the title came from a cassette that Millard gave to a friend. Did he have any other special titles for his cassettes? All the images I've seen of them just have "Recorded by Mike Millard", the arena where the band played, and the date of the concert.

I've never heard Eddie Kramer say "that Led Zeppelin couldn't be captured well live and/or they were terrible live?" Kramer recorded both HTWWW & TSRTS so even if he did say it (which I seriously doubt) its pure nonsense. What I do know is that Kramer wanted Plant to do some vocal overdubbing's on TSRTS, and Plant refused. Eddie Kramer never worked LZ again after that.

"Would the average boot collector in the 80s have known or cared about what Eddie Kramer had said about Led Zeppelin? "

Nope. It makes no sense at all.

[Strider]

59 minutes ago, ZepHead315 said:

I also don't buy the Eddie Van Halen theory. Page's playing at this show is damn good for 1977, but I would never characterize it as one of his best ever performances. Heartbreaker was a huge influence on Van Halen, but Page's solo at this show is pretty sloppy. I doubt Eddie would be impressed. If anyone is the star of this show, it's Bonham, not Page.

With regard to Eddie Kramer, didn't he claim that Led Zeppelin couldn't be captured well live and/or they were terrible live? I don't know if he was just referring to 77, or the band's live career as a whole, but I guess this is a bit more plausible than the Van Halen theory, but again some things don't add up. When did he make those comments? Would the average boot collector in the 80s have known or cared about what Eddie Kramer had said about Led Zeppelin? Sure the sound on LTTE is incredible for an audience recording, but compared with official release quality, it is still a step down. Plus, it wasn't as though this was the first amazing sounding recording of Led Zeppelin. We'd already had Blueberry Hill, Going to California, Seattle 73, and several other great audience recordings out before the LTTE show was even played.

I suppose of the two the Kramer theory is more plausible, but again neither makes much sense. I too think that the title came from a cassette that Millard gave to a friend. Did he have any other special titles for his cassettes? All the images I've seen of them just have "Recorded by Mike Millard", the arena where the band played, and the date of the concert.

 

6 minutes ago, blindwillie127 said:

I've never heard Eddie Kramer say "that Led Zeppelin couldn't be captured well live and/or they were terrible live?" Kramer recorded both HTWWW & TSRTS so even if he did say it (which I seriously doubt) its pure nonsense. What I do know is that Kramer wanted Plant to do some vocal overdubbing's on TSRTS, and Plant refused. Eddie Kramer never worked LZ again after that.

"Would the average boot collector in the 80s have known or cared about what Eddie Kramer had said about Led Zeppelin? "

Nope. It makes no sense at all.

I believe the Eddie Kramer angle even less than I believe the Eddie Van Halen angle.

ZepHead315, I never read Eddie Kramer make those remarks about Led Zeppelin being terrible live. Although I have not seen any source first-hand, there have been claims that Eddie Kramer turned down Jimmy's offer to multitrack some 1977 concerts due to Eddie feeling they were too fucked up on drugs to be worth multitracking.

Again, even if this were true, the chance that Mike Millard would have been privy to this information is slim.

[ZepHead315]

24 minutes ago, blindwillie127 said:

I've never heard Eddie Kramer say "that Led Zeppelin couldn't be captured well live and/or they were terrible live?" Kramer recorded both HTWWW & TSRTS so even if he did say it (which I seriously doubt) its pure nonsense. What I do know is that Kramer wanted Plant to do some vocal overdubbing's on TSRTS, and Plant refused. Eddie Kramer never worked LZ again after that.

6 minutes ago, Strider said:

ZepHead315, I never read Eddie Kramer make those remarks about Led Zeppelin being terrible live. Although I have not seen any source first-hand, there have been claims that Eddie Kramer turned down Jimmy's offer to multitrack some 1977 concerts due to Eddie feeling they were too fucked up on drugs to be worth multitracking.

My apologies. I remembered it wrong. I knew he had been rumored to say something disparaging about them, but I just couldn't remember the details. Were those rumors circulating at all around the 70s and 80s when LTTE boots started trickling out? Regardless, I still don't think it adds up. Why would Millard or anyone else care about what Kramer had been rumored to say about one Led Zeppelin tour? Would the rumors really have been so well known at the time that boot labels would have come up with the title and collectors would have instantly known what they were talking about? I don't buy it. Neither story really makes much sense.

[blindwillie127]

21 hours ago, Strider said:

there have been claims that Eddie Kramer turned down Jimmy's offer to multitrack some 1977 concerts due to Eddie feeling they were too fucked up on drugs to be worth multitracking.

I doubt this "claim" has any truth to it as well. Reason: Kramer had no qualms about recording Kiss live in 1977, despite having already recorded their first live album in 1975 where damn near every track had to be overdubbed later in the studio. And, in 1977 the same thing had to be done again for Kiss Alive II. In other words, Kramer was very well aware of how shit Kiss was to record live, but did it anyways. Kramer was done in the Zeppelin camp once he attempted to get Plant to overdub his vocals for TSRTS. I imagine that had he not gotten on Plants bad side that he would have been recruited to record the Earls Court run as well. 

Also, if LZ had wanted to record live in 1977, and Kramer passed on it, they would have gotten someone else to do it for sure.

[Dylan Rutherford]

On 11/14/2018 at 12:14 PM, the chase said:

yep .. I bought mine in the summer of 77.. maybe a little later.  

The irony is that there are plenty of times Eddie Van Halen hasn't sounded all that great live either, like he had a broken hand... It happens, they're human.

Drugs and Drink can make the all time greats sound not so good.

The main problem is his big mouth.

 

 

On 11/14/2018 at 12:14 PM, the chase said:

yep .. I bought mine in the summer of 77.. maybe a little later.  

The irony is that there are plenty of times Eddie Van Halen hasn't sounded all that great live either, like he had a broken hand... It happens, they're human.

Drugs and Drink can make the all time greats sound not so good.

The main problem is his big mouth.

 

Exactly, totally agree here. Eddie should listen to the song remains the same. But he might be too stubborn too, I still like Eddie tho but it’s disrespectful to an all time great.

[Strider]

Regarding the Eddie Van Halen remarks in Guitar World, nearly every 1973 European tour tape could be titled "Listen to This, Eddie".

Edited April 28, 2020 by Strider

[MissChevelle71]

Mike's friends Eddie F. is Ed Finnell. Do a Google search for Ed Finnell Photography if curious.

[Walter]

1 hour ago, MissChevelle71 said:

Mike's friends Eddie F. is Ed Finnell. Do a Google search for Ed Finnell Photography if curious.

Very interesting. Thank you for the information and welcome to the LZ Forum! 

[pluribus]

10 hours ago, MissChevelle71 said:

Mike's friends Eddie F. is Ed Finnell. Do a Google search for Ed Finnell Photography if curious.

That’s well-known. Just as it’s also well-known that Ed went to a lot of shows with Mike, which makes the “Listen to this Ed” theory even less likely. Ed was at those shows, and dozens more with Mike. So, nothing for him to be amazed at. He’d heard Mike’s tapes before, and was at the same shows up front. He knew how good they all were. And Mike’s friends didn’t supply bootleggers. So, all of this made up story about “Mike must’ve written a note on a tape, that then got given to a friend, that then ended up with bootleggers...” it’s nonsense. There’s no way that such a tape would’ve made it from Mike’s friends to a bootlegger. The bootleg label got the tape via some random trade that Mike likely made. Just like how the rest of his Zeppelin tapes got out.

What is truly bizarre here is that bootleg labels had been making hundreds of albums with nonsensical titles for 15+ years by the time LTTE came out, and not a single person dissects any of those for hidden meaning. Bootlegs were always named using obvious jokes. Van Halen crapped on Page in the press, at a time when that band was king. Bootleggers took note. Simple as that.

 

 

 

[hummingbird69]

[badgeholder]

On 8/11/2020 at 3:56 AM, hummingbird69 said:

And there it is! Nice! Nothing about Eddie on it. The mystery continues