Jimmy's mostly shoddy playing on the 77 US tour.

[Mattmc1973]

^ Great post!

[zep41]

^ Great post!

if that was directed to me -- thanks!

[Rock Action]

if that was directed to me -- thanks!

Well here's another "great post!" directed at you.

As a guitarist myself I know exactly what you mean. Those dry sounding soundboards at the big venues take a lot out of the guitar tone. I've heard aud. and soundboard recordings of the same show (NYC 6-11-77 as an example), and Jimmy's guitar sounds far better on the audience tape.

[jadester48]

i'd just like to weigh in here regarding the sound of soundboards vs. audience.

While i'd agree that the soundboards take at least some of the "feel" out of the performances, for some of us, we don't have much option - alot of audience recordings are actually really poor sound-quality wise

although i haven't been comparing the proportion of good auidence recordings from their later years with the proportion of good audience recordings from their earlier years - maybe more of the later years audience recordings are of a listenable quality

[Rock Action]

Most early audience recordings are shit. Believe me, I would much rather have a soundboard recording in general. What I was getting at is that some of the "dry" sounding ones kill Jimmy's guitar effects.

Of course great recordings like Badgeholders-and most notably LTTE- blow away a lot of SB recordings.

[3hrsoflunacy]

I've always been a sucker for "Badgeholders" The acoustic set, OTHAFA and of course three hours of lunacy.

Levee, didn't know you held me in such high regard!

I personally enjoy the 77 tour, sleeping sickness and all.

[cutis]

The two biggest WARTS of the '77 tour were:

The drum solo segment

the "guitar solo" segment

Now Jimi may have been smacked out at various times during the '77 tour but it was these ridiculous mind-numbing solos/segments that were utterly and entirely UNECESSARY!

Zep had the chance to play NEW MATERIAL. And all they attempted was Ten Years Gone, NFBM, a folk song from the 2nd album and what else?

The '77 tour would have really kicked ass if the band had bothered to try out tunes like, In your life and a few others from Presence. What about Wanton Song?? There are so many other cool riffs and tunes that Page composed and the band never bothered to try them live. It's just a shame.

Bonham was no better a drummer in '77 than he was in '75 or prior to that. Page was no better a guitarist in '77 than in '75 (and in '77 he was hampered by a smack addiction).

So we get the boring drum solo from Bonham and the obnoxious sounding guitar sound theatrics of Page (and in some audience tapes you can hear the crowd getting restless for more music and less guitar BS from Page).

If the band had shelved both solos and instead added at least THREE new songs from either Presence or PG, '77 would have absolutely been a PRIMO year for live zep.

Instead, what we really get is LA '77 (truly the best and most inspired of the entire tour, Cleveland, April 28 comes a close second) and the rest of the tour which is OK overall, but falls short because of those obnoxious solo segments and just not enouch new material performed.

Sorry, it's the truth. My truth anyway. :-)

[mos6507]

If nothing else, the 77 tour's claim to fame is what they managed to do with No Quarter by then. It's one of their penultimate improv accomplishments.

[Levee]

i agree with a lot of posts here.

Page wasnt "shoddy" all the time in 77, nor was he always on either. There are probably a million different factors that go into it, but since its so openly discussed, the main factor had to be the drugs and what he was taking.

As a long time guitarist and avid student of Page for decades, on some 77 shows you can hear exactly what he's TRYING to do and what he's trying to get across but in actuallity it comes out as half ass and shoddy. I have played guitar some live shows when I was messed up (well, not on herion or anything that hard) and literally the exact same thing happens. I know what I want to do and how I want to do it, but it just doesnt come out right because your too fucked up to execute it.

AND that would explain the reason why he's "ON" on certain nights too. Assuming Page just didnt get lucky once in a while and nail the riffs/solos (we know that luck is not the case!) there had to be other forces at work when he was shoddy and it was obviously drugs.

My point? I dont think Page's technique or ability or competence diminished. How he played was simply a function of what and how much of substances he put in his body, and sadly that affected him greatly and we are still talking about it 30 years later.

I also wanted to say -- please dont make the mistake of judging tone and sound quality from a bootleg -- especially a soundboard --- because there so many ways that tone can get screwed up on a recording. Plus keep in mind since a soundboard is a direct feed from many many microphones --- there are all kinds of forces at work , especially at the huge venues Zep was playing in 1977. All kinds of EQ and volumes and levels and things are adjusted to make the sound system and PA as best as it can be LIVE AT THAT TIME IN THAT VENUE FOR THAT SIZE CROWD. Why do you think at the smaller venues the soundboard is better? Because its small and there's minimal factors and adjusting that needs to be done. But at the Kingdome, LA forum, Richfield Coliseum, Pontiac, etc etc, you really need to mess with things to get the best sound live -- and not worry about what its gonna sound like on a recording.

Page's TONE was not suffering at any time folks. He changed nothing once he started using primarily his #1 and #2 Les Paul, a few Marhall 1959 plexis, a wah and some phaser. Its all the same exact stuff at the same settings. If your hearing any tonal differences its because of the obvious two things:

1. Page's shoddy playing on off nights

2. The overall soundboard mix for different veunes/atmospheres, etc

Think about it. Its no coincidence that Page's tone magically sounds better on nights when he was "on" ya know?

This is a great thread!! Thank you.

It's even better than judging tours by pictures.

[Rock Action]

If nothing else, the 77 tour's claim to fame is what they managed to do with No Quarter by then. It's one of their penultimate improv accomplishments.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ally]

Well i'm sorry but have to disagree with all of you that say JP was great most nights in 77. There were some moments, on some songs, on some nights that were up to his standard. Good boots or not his playing was NOT good. Yep, on tours past he had his off nights but even on the worst audience recordings you could hear his playing had soul. Sorry... but I detected very little of that on anything I've heard or seen from that tour

[Styrbjorn]

Having just watched the KoolKat video of the recent O2 show I can definitely say he's playing better now than he did on the 1977 tour. It appears he's come full circle and has something of the old fire he displayed in the early years.

[martinnorman]

Sorry, but I have to put pen to paper here, having read some of the comments.

These guys have put mind, body and spirit into every performance since they formed - so I think it's a bit rich that anyone starts talking about 'shoddy' performances left right and centre. Can we not just sit back, enjoy the music and compositions that we've had? If I was one of the band, and read some of these comments, I'd be thinking 'Well, stuff you lot then' and potter about doing my own thing, with family, rather than putting absolutely every last scrap of energy into more writing, recording and touring. Come on guys ! You're Led Zeppelin fans, enjoy the music, and whatever documented performances there are past, present and future.....the same goes for other threads I've seen levelling accusations of the band having been creatively dry at times - can the people who posted such comments lay claim to twelve years' worth of legendary recordings and performances? Didn't think so !

Sorry, may come across as harsh, but had to voice an opinion.

[Styrbjorn]

Sorry, but I have to put pen to paper here, having read some of the comments.

These guys have put mind, body and spirit into every performance since they formed - so I think it's a bit rich that anyone starts talking about 'shoddy' performances left right and centre. Can we not just sit back, enjoy the music and compositions that we've had? If I was one of the band, and read some of these comments, I'd be thinking 'Well, stuff you lot then' and potter about doing my own thing, with family, rather than putting absolutely every last scrap of energy into more writing, recording and touring. Come on guys ! You're Led Zeppelin fans, enjoy the music, and whatever documented performances there are past, present and future.....the same goes for other threads I've seen levelling accusations of the band having been creatively dry at times - can the people who posted such comments lay claim to twelve years' worth of legendary recordings and performances? Didn't think so !

Sorry, may come across as harsh, but had to voice an opinion.

Not harsh at all Martin. We should concentrate far more on the positives than the negatives. On a good night Zeppelin really were the hammer of the gods. However, if you'd paid good, hard earned money on a ticket for the Tempe Arizona show back in 1977 you might think otherwise.

[ally]

I think if your a person who's grown up with Zeppelin, from the very start, you might have a better idea of where I'm coming from. This is not about bashing the band. It's a simple observation of the sad truth. This band owes me absolutely nothin'. And i've had nothing but joy listening to them no matter what the format. Jesus , I grew up on Zeppelin. But it does give people like me a perspective that goes beyond just the music. To us,... and I think other's will agree... We felt we knew them personally...even though most of us didn't. To see JP's downward slide was.... painful. Like watching someone you care about in need of help.... and you ... not being able to do anything about it. 77 confirmed all the rumors circulating prior to the tour and it was obvious.. for once... there was a good load of truth to them. Yep there were some good performances, but all the lasers and effects couldn't hide the reality from me. If you've read some of my posts in the past, you'll note that, I tend to be a fan of the earlier tours and have stated that there were off nights on the 73 and 75 tours... as other's have too .... nobody got upset and said we were bashing the band.... Why ? Because they were playing well most nights. If people are getting upset about negative opinions of 77 then I think... they know full well that things were starting to come apart and don't want to admit it. Page , Plant , Jones , and Bonham were my HEROS.... being critical of your HEROS...just means ..you give a shit about them.

[Honeydripper]

Sorry, but I have to put pen to paper here, having read some of the comments.

These guys have put mind, body and spirit into every performance since they formed - so I think it's a bit rich that anyone starts talking about 'shoddy' performances left right and centre. Can we not just sit back, enjoy the music and compositions that we've had? If I was one of the band, and read some of these comments, I'd be thinking 'Well, stuff you lot then' and potter about doing my own thing, with family, rather than putting absolutely every last scrap of energy into more writing, recording and touring. Come on guys ! You're Led Zeppelin fans, enjoy the music, and whatever documented performances there are past, present and future.....the same goes for other threads I've seen levelling accusations of the band having been creatively dry at times - can the people who posted such comments lay claim to twelve years' worth of legendary recordings and performances? Didn't think so !

Sorry, may come across as harsh, but had to voice an opinion.

I would say that the majority of people here are here because they absolutely LOVE Zep......but to just praise them blindly without also pointing out their faults tends to be a tad childish IMO. If you can't handle critique of Zep...good or bad....a Zep forum would'nt be the best place to read about them. They are just humans...nothing more.

The truth is...Zep shed their soul on stage nightly....until they knew they were untouchable (sometime after 72)..They always gave their all to LA/NYC/a few other places.....IMO much of the 77 tour was just excess. Borderline laziness IMO. If they were so concerned with each performance Jimmy would have stayed off the liquor each night (Smack does not make you play like a zombie btw...alcohol does! A smack addict shoots up to keep from getting sick, not so much as a recreational high at that point!)

PS, Rock Action......the list of 77 shows you have is like a "best of 77" list. You really need to hear a dozen more shows to form an accurate oppinion from that tour. There are LOTS of embarrasing moments. Mainly all Page's.

and as far as Bonzo not being any better in 77....true...but he certainly made an effort to pick up some of Page's slack. He was playing uber fills that the music would'nt have required in 75....in fact it would have been overkill in 75. In 77 it was a nessecity to fill the void.

Overall, there were some great moments in each show......very few shows were great from start to finish....and several shows were just plain poor from start to finish. But from an audience standpoint....they were all great of course. No boot does any show justice.....it's too one dimensional. But just like having lots of boots of various band's shows I attended.....I thought the shows were stellar when I was there.....years later listening to sbd/aud recordings of them....most were average at best.

[SteveAJones]

Jimmy's playing on the '77 tour is inconsistent and self-indulgent. It's a shame some nights featured too few highlights, because with a three hour show he had a lot of time to shine.

He's still the best, though.

[ally]

Jimmy's playing on the '77 tour is inconsistent and self-indulgent. It's a shame some nights featured too few highlights, because with a three hour show he had a lot of time to shine.

He's still the best, though.

Agreed , The hair on my neck still stands up when I hear him play. Last time I sae him live was 98 and felt he looked and played great. He did play within himself, so to speak , but it was enough to bring a smile to my face. HEROS can come back and it's good to see him looking healthy and inspired

[Rock Action]

I've said this over and over too Honeydripper...and still there'll be people saying they can do NO wrong over and over as well...

I just don't get those who can't take the critiques. They really shouldn't be reading these type of threads. Are they so naive as to believe others dont realize fallibilities ?

It doesn't mean they're any less of a great band...geez....as you say, they're humans...not GODS..but some revere them as such.

I've yet to chime in on this thread...but truth be known...it IS my least favorite live year for Zep...I even like the '80 tour better...for the most part. It's all opinion...but mine won't be as valid as those who did see them throughout their live career. I only saw them in their early years...'69 and '71. That's my personal reference...other than bootlegs and the legit releases..

I can handle the critiques just fine. Like you said, Zep are humans, not gods. No question there. My viewpoints are solely based on what I've heard. No more, no less. But I personally love the 1977 shows I've heard, as far as the majority goes. My favorite song being No Quarter sure helps, as that was always the highlight of the 1977 tour.

Sure, Jimmy got sloppy that year at times. No denying that. But the band shined overall, when they needed to.

1977. Zep at their loosest, you might say.

[Rock Action]

I wasn't even really refering to your posts Rock Action...but to those who say...just enjoy it....don't be critical....all that...ya know ?

Oh, I know you weren't aiming at me in particular.

I know what you mean though. None of us are above reproach. Not even musicians we all admire and look up to. We all have our flaws. Even me.

[fabrice]

Zep had the chance to play NEW MATERIAL. And all they attempted was Ten Years Gone, NFBM, a folk song from the 2nd album and what else?

Well, they did a song called ACHILLES LAST STAND of their than current album, which might be regarded as a highlight in the setlist. The attempt to play BATTLE OF EVERMORE was bold and not as bad as some do tell.

[Levee]

Well, they did a song called ACHILLES LAST STAND of their than current album, which might be regarded as a highlight in the setlist. The attempt to play BATTLE OF EVERMORE was bold and not as bad as some do tell.

Thank you.

[greenman]

The not espeically adventuous setlists of 75 onwards were I'd guess partly down to circumstance. When your coming back from a lenghty absense(as they were with every tour) its understandible that you want to go mainly with classic material that you know works and is liked. If various misfortune hadnt intervened each time I'd guess you'd have seen more material introduced in following tours.

[mos6507]

Having just watched the KoolKat video of the recent O2 show I can definitely say he's playing better now than he did on the 1977 tour. It appears he's come full circle and has something of the old fire he displayed in the early years.

He had already come full circle as far back as 1998, I think. This time he's coming round again, like 720'.

[tom kid]

Well here's another "great post!" directed at you.

As a guitarist myself I know exactly what you mean. Those dry sounding soundboards at the big venues take a lot out of the guitar tone. I've heard aud. and soundboard recordings of the same show (NYC 6-11-77 as an example), and Jimmy's guitar sounds far better on the audience tape.

Agreed, the tone on the 6-11-77 show is great on the audience recording that I have.