Jimmy Page´s injured fingers in the 70ies

[KellyGirl]

Pluribus I'm on board with what you're saying.  I think Jimmy has very much one of those
nagging on / off *injuries*.  Not an injury as in actual break,  but something that can and will
flare up here and there.  It probably was not as aggravating post Zep since he wasn't playing or
touring as extensively - meaning 3+ hour long shows.  I wonder if flared up again when he was
practicing for the 02 gig.

I have to ask are you referring to the picture of Jimmy holding his hand for the camera with a
tensor bandage wrapped around his hand and wrist?  I do think the fact his fingers in the
picture have absolutely no swelling  and he's able to keep them apart tells me he didn't have
a broken finger,   but it was something nagging that forced him to  change his playing style.  

Pitchers who have even the smallest injuries on their hands and fingers are forced to change
how they throw.  It can be something  as minor as a blister, so for a guitarist who gets a bruise
or sprain and then tries to go out and play 3 hour shows multiple months in row I can see that
causing a problem - hence why Jimmy changed his playing approach. 

 

[blindwillie127]

The biggest problem with finger injuries is that they never seem to fully heal, and worst of all, become early candidates for arthritic conditions. 

[SteveAJones]

On 6/17/2016 at 0:03 PM, pluribus said:

What I do think is a story is the LA Forum 73 injury. That photo of Page with the bizarre looking cast? What is that about? That looks more like something to treat a broken wrist, maybe. It didn't even have any support on it for his fingers. Yet the supposedly strained a finger.

I'd agree with the conspiracy theorists who think that Page was faking the LA injury to mask whatever was really going on. 

May 30, 1973...postponement of tonight's concert at the Forum was announced on local radio as fans arrived for the show. Jimmy had allegedly sprained his finger lurching into a fence at the airport in San Diego following their performance in San Diego on May 28th.

http://www.ledzeppelin.com/show/june-3-1973  

[Strider]

Conspiracy theorists, like rust, never sleep, I see.

Look, whether it was technically a sprain in 1973, or a broken finger in 1975, something really did happen to his fingers back then. Whatever he did in 1973 to cause the postponement of the May 30th Forum date to June 3, it was obviously something that required a wrap and also required Jimmy to keep dipping his fretting hand in cold water on stage during the concert.

In 1975, you can clearly see in the early photos the blood coagulation under his fingernail, which is consistent with a finger that has been smashed, if not broken.

Don't know why it is difficult for people to accept Jimmy's injuries at face value? As much as they travelled, getting a hand caught on a fence or a train door was bound to happen. 

 

[blindwillie127]

Anybody ever notice how in 1975 Page was using his middle finger to bend strings as opposed to his ring finger whenever possible? If not, I suggest watching the solo to STH from Earls Court (particularly the first 20secs). Then, watch STH from TSRTS and you'll notice he never once uses his middle finger for bends. Both Page and Plant really had to muscle through that '75 tour. Its pretty damn impressive considering the circumstances at this time.

[Slowfoot]

I can't play guitar so can only go by what I hear. Jimmy's playing sounds different  after1973,  His playing style does not sound as fluid. It sounds as if he has changed his style/technique for some reason but I am not qualified to even speculate why.

[greenman]

Beyond injuries your also of course dealing with a deliberate change in style towards something less overtly bluesy with a harsher tone.

[Strider]

All right, for any doubters out there this is straight from the source...from Chris Charlesworth's report in the February 1, 1975 Melody Maker:

The tour, however, was almost cancelled at the last minute, for Jimmy Page is playing under a severe handicap. The third finger of his left hand, the one that's used by all guitarists to bend notes, was two weeks before the tour, trapped in an interconnecting carriage door on a train in Victoria Station.

The jolt broke a bone and specialists say he won't be able to use the finger for another two weeks. He takes a painkiller before going on stage.

"I can't play any blues at all, can't bend notes either," he (Jimmy Page) told me before going on stage at Chicago. "It's the most important finger for any guitarist, so I'm having to modify my playing to suit the situation. A shame, but it can't be helped.

"We've had to cut 'Dazed and Confused' from the set and substitute 'How Many More Times', which we haven't played in four years. I'm still doing the violin bow routine, but we've had to alter even that and I can't do it as well as I'd like to. I can tell it's not as good as it usually is, but the audiences don't seem to notice.

"We almost cancelled the tour, but we couldn't, as we'd sold all the tickets and a postponement would have meant chaos. It couldn't have happened at a worse time, either."

Okay, so for all of you doubters...that pretty much clears up three questions.

1. The 'what'?: It was a break  in his ring finger and not just a sprain.

2. The 'when'?: Clearly before the Rotterdam and Brussels warmup shows. This explains why there is no D & C or HMMMT for those shows. Jimmy was obviously still thinking of what he could play in place of D &C.

3. The 'why'?: As in why they didn't postpone the tour. With many of the venues they were booked in also being used for the NBA and NHL teams, and a Rolling Stones tour also booked for the summer in many of those same venues, Jimmy is correct in saying it would have been chaos trying to reschedule the tour.

[Crimson Avenger]

On 28/07/2016 at 9:13 PM, Strider said:

All right, for any doubters out there this is straight from the source...from Chris Charlesworth's report in the February 1, 1975 Melody Maker:

The tour, however, was almost cancelled at the last minute, for Jimmy Page is playing under a severe handicap. The third finger of his left hand, the one that's used by all guitarists to bend notes, was two weeks before the tour, trapped in an interconnecting carriage door on a train in Victoria Station.

The jolt broke a bone and specialists say he won't be able to use the finger for another two weeks. He takes a painkiller before going on stage.

"I can't play any blues at all, can't bend notes either," he (Jimmy Page) told me before going on stage at Chicago. "It's the most important finger for any guitarist, so I'm having to modify my playing to suit the situation. A shame, but it can't be helped.

"We've had to cut 'Dazed and Confused' from the set and substitute 'How Many More Times', which we haven't played in four years. I'm still doing the violin bow routine, but we've had to alter even that and I can't do it as well as I'd like to. I can tell it's not as good as it usually is, but the audiences don't seem to notice.

"We almost cancelled the tour, but we couldn't, as we'd sold all the tickets and a postponement would have meant chaos. It couldn't have happened at a worse time, either."

Okay, so for all of you doubters...that pretty much clears up three questions.

1. The 'what'?: It was a break  in his ring finger and not just a sprain.

2. The 'when'?: Clearly before the Rotterdam and Brussels warmup shows. This explains why there is no D & C or HMMMT for those shows. Jimmy was obviously still thinking of what he could play in place of D &C.

3. The 'why'?: As in why they didn't postpone the tour. With many of the venues they were booked in also being used for the NBA and NHL teams, and a Rolling Stones tour also booked for the summer in many of those same venues, Jimmy is correct in saying it would have been chaos trying to reschedule the tour.

 

Persuasive but not quite conclusive for me. I’m only a ‘doubter’ with relation to the precise date. I’m open-minded but still incline to a post-Brussels date, although as I posted earlier, it’s very hard to make all the available evidence add up one way or the other. To resolve this, we need to discount some of the contradictory evidence/testimony we have; knowing which to discount is the tricky bit.

tl/dr… I’d say the jury is still out on this one, would be nice to be able to resolve it one way or the other.

It had to have happened so close to the start of the tour that there was no time to reschedule. I have some sympathy when people say you can’t play at all for weeks with a broken finger, but if it’s just the tip you’d get away with it, as opposed to damage further down, which would seriously restrict movement in the whole hand (yes, I do play guitar). An early date for the injury, in late 1974, doesn’t work because they surely would have scheduled the tour around that. Dates for the first leg of the tour weren’t announced until mid November 74, and tickets for the New York shows weren’t even on sale until 4th-6th January 75. Interesting how late everything happened, compared to these days. The second part of the tour wasn’t even announced until 22nd January, so it isn’t relevant here as it would have been arranged in full knowledge of Jimmy’s finger. The only tricky early venues to rearrange were probably the multiple dates in Chicago and MSG. We know they succesfully rearranged the St Louis gig for example.

Why do I still not warm to the idea that the injury happened before the warmup shows, ie between 6th and 10th January?

All the written testimony I’ve ever seen says the opposite, that it happened in the week after the warmups. Maybe oddly, I’m most convinced by the Richard Cole book, where he is unambiguous about this, saying it happened during the three days they spent in the UK after Brussels, ie 13th to 15th January. (page 247 of my UK paperback edition). Every other writer, reputable and otherwise, follows this chronology.

There’s a contempory Rolling Stone piece (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-durable-led-zeppelin-19750313) which puts the injury ‘the week before’ the start of the US tour, which to my eye places it post-Brussels although I accept you could read it as being ambiguous. I confess I’ve never seen the Melody Maker article with the ‘two weeks before’ reference, which is very interesting. Is there a scan of the full thing anywhere?

They flew to the US on 16th Jan, and did an immediate 'soundcheck' on 17th, which Jimmy describes in his photobook as ‘long and spirited’. Interesting phrase, given the context. I have an old Dave Lewis book (A Celebration, about 1992 I think) which says they used this soundcheck to work out how to play the set in the light of Jimmy’s injury. This implies a later date.

If it happened, say, between the MSG ticket sales and Rotterdam/Brussels (6th- 10th January), then I don’t see why those two shows weren’t cancelled. If you were in agony with a very recently broken finger and seriously considering whether you could go ahead with a major US tour, would you then immediately fly to Rotterdam to do an inconsequential (no offence to Rotterdam) warm-up show? No, I wouldn’t either.

Despite what some books might have us believe, Brussels is a good show, stage-rustiness aside. When I first listened to it I expected it to be awful, but was so pleasantly surprised I listened again, just to make sure I’d been paying attention. Yes it’s short (is the tape complete? Probably, yes), but they play well. Plant makes no mention of Jimmy’s finger when talking to the crowd, which he does do at every January gig in the US. Nor does he mention it in the BBC interview done at the time. Circumstantial I know, but if you listen to the Brussels tape for evidence of an injured or below-par Jimmy, I don’t think it’s there.

We don’t know what they did or didn’t play in Rotterdam the night before. A recording of that, or even some decent pics or sensible evidence of the set list, would be hugely helpful. Same goes for the first US gig, actually.

Would also be nice to know if there are any known rehearsal dates in early Jan 75, because Jimmy says somewhere (I can’t find the source immediately) that he did it on the way to rehearsals. I’ve always taken that with a pinch of salt, but would be an extra piece in the puzzle.

Does any of this matter? Yes and no. Yes, because I think resolving it helps understand what the band were up to in early 75, specifically with regard to the setlist. While I fully accept the ‘pre Rotterdam’ date may turn out to be right, the available evidence also allows an alternative view, which I quite like; that they initially trialled a radically different set list with no D&C, as they wanted to drop it (like they would do in 77). They get to the US and realise that a longer more recognisable show is needed. D&C is the obvious candidate, but Jimmy’s finger won’t allow it, and/or they haven’t rehearsed it, so they do HMMT instead. Same with SIBLY; I don't think they ever intended that to be part of the set at all in 75.

Whether 15 mins of HMMT is easier on the finger than 15 mins of D&C is a moot point; both contain elements that would be tricky without a functioning ring finger. I had a go, and wouldn’t fancy either. Maybe they just liked the idea of the change and then changed their minds back again after a couple of weeks. Maybe Jimmy spent Jan 75 working out how to do D&C in the comfort of his US hotel room, using HMMT to roadtest elements of it. Or maybe they had half an eye on filming some shows at some point in 75 and realised D&C needed to be in there. Who knows.

Does any of this matter, no… aside from the mind-boggling minutiae of it all, which I’m sure will leave most readers going WTF, Jimmy played damned well in early 1975, whatever the state of his finger and however badly it hurt. A hugely professional and focussed set of performances in January 1975, masked by a lack of decent recordings.

 

 

[Nutrocker]

15 hours ago, Crimson Avenger said:

A hugely professional and focussed set of performances in January 1975, masked by a lack of decent recordings.

 

 

I love the January '75 shows- probably my overall favourites of the whole tour. Generally speaking, they're short and to the point. Sure, Plant's voice is rough but it's pretty much like that throughout the tour so you sorta get used to it  And even with Page's finger outta commission he doesn't come across as any sloppier than usual or anything. And as I've said in other '75 discussions they shoulda kept "How Many More Times" in in place of the (IMO) mothworn "Dazed and Confused" for the duration of the tour, shoulda kept "Wanton Song" in there as well. 

I also remember reading a post in a discussion years ago -either at RO or the tradersden, I can't remember- of a guy claiming to be hoarding a Rotterdam '75 recording. Could just be typical wannabe big-time-Zeppelin-collector bullshit, but who knows?

[Crimson Avenger]

2 hours ago, Nutrocker said:

I love the January '75 shows- probably my overall favourites of the whole tour. Generally speaking, they're short and to the point. Sure, Plant's voice is rough but it's pretty much like that throughout the tour so you sorta get used to it  And even with Page's finger outta commission he doesn't come across as any sloppier than usual or anything. And as I've said in other '75 discussions they shoulda kept "How Many More Times" in in place of the (IMO) mothworn "Dazed and Confused" for the duration of the tour, shoulda kept "Wanton Song" in there as well. 

I also remember reading a post in a discussion years ago -either at RO or the tradersden, I can't remember- of a guy claiming to be hoarding a Rotterdam '75 recording. Could just be typical wannabe big-time-Zeppelin-collector bullshit, but who knows?

Agree with all that. They should have kept to the original set. I can see why they dropped WTLB, but HMMT and Wanton were definite keepers. Maybe Wanton was cut for vocal rather than guitar reasons, because they play it right up to the postponed St Louis gig and then never afterwards. And why oh why oh why didn't they use Custard Pie to open with!? Rock and Roll was a poor choice to open with in 75 because it needed Plant on decent form from minute one, which hardly ever happened even at the end of the tour.

Ironically I think Jimmy's finger trouble made him a better player in Jan by making him more focussed and to the point, as you say. He may have been frustrated that he couldn't do a 40 minute D&C but I doubt there were many in the audience who would have agreed. Think of the extra songs they could have played if only they had cut D&C to 15 minutes.

We've all had 75 SBD revolution overload, but something from January would be really good to have. 22nd in Chicago, the AUD isn't bad for that, but a SBD would really raise the profile of a much neglected and traduced part of Zep history. As to Rotterdam, well, seeing is believing isn't it! The reasonable assumption is that they played the same set as Brussels, but we don't know.

 

 

[Boleskinner]

You mentioned Custard Pie, there. Always baffled me why that and Wanton Sing weren't staples of the 75 tour. As you say, you could have relegated Rock and Roll and another older tune to the encores or shortened D&C. Seems like a wasted opportunity to try new material. Custard Pie would have been a great opener.

[Crimson Avenger]

25 minutes ago, Boleskinner said:

You mentioned Custard Pie, there. Always baffled me why that and Wanton Sing weren't staples of the 75 tour. As you say, you could have relegated Rock and Roll and another older tune to the encores or shortened D&C. Seems like a wasted opportunity to try new material. Custard Pie would have been a great opener.

Weird isn't it. They recorded it, gave it pride of place as the opener on the new album, and then never played it live. It's a easy song to play, would have sounded great live, and suited Plant's raspier voice.

I suppose 1975 was the first 'greatest hits' tour really. They started off bold, but quickly reverted to doing more familiar material.

 

 

[bluecongo]

FWIW Custard Pie is no picnic vocally.  Plant would've struggled mightily with it as well as an opener.  

 

 

[Crimson Avenger]

5 minutes ago, bluecongo said:

FWIW Custard Pie is no picnic vocally.  Plant would've struggled mightily with it as well as an opener.  

 

 

Sure, Plant would have struggled to get the notes on the LP version, but a song like that gives you options. He could have lowered things a bit and growled his way through it like an old bluesman if need be, voice cracks don't matter so much, unlike Rock and Roll. That's why IMTOD works so great in 75  

Just odd that they ignored such a great song so completely after opening an album with it... the only opening track that never got played live. I don't think Plant has ever done it live solo, so I guess you are right, there must be something he doesn't like about it. Page played it in 88 if I remember rightly.

 

[bluecongo]

Unless I'm mistaken it was tried out during 75 Tour rehearsals.

and I agree Plant prob could've changed it to make it work. 

Theres a recording of it in Pages vault somewhere.

 

 

[Walter]

1 hour ago, Crimson Avenger said:

Sure, Plant would have struggled to get the notes on the LP version, but a song like that gives you options. He could have lowered things a bit and growled his way through it like an old bluesman if need be, voice cracks don't matter so much, unlike Rock and Roll. That's why IMTOD works so great in 75  

Just odd that they ignored such a great song so completely after opening an album with it... the only opening track that never got played live. I don't think Plant has ever done it live solo, so I guess you are right, there must be something he doesn't like about it. Page played it in 88 if I remember rightly.

 

Page/Plant played it in the 90's.  Worked great live, IMO!

[Crimson Avenger]

19 minutes ago, Walter said:

Page/Plant played it in the 90's.  Worked great live, IMO!

Thanks, I didn't know Page/Plant ever did it. I'll check it out!

[Walter]

2 minutes ago, Crimson Avenger said:

Thanks, I didn't know Page/Plant ever did it. I'll check it out!

Feb 13, 1996 show from Tokyo - 2nd song in.  You should easily be able to find it on youtube, I would think.

[Strider]

On 8/2/2016 at 7:04 AM, Crimson Avenger said:

 

Persuasive but not quite conclusive for me. I’m only a ‘doubter’ with relation to the precise date. I’m open-minded but still incline to a post-Brussels date, although as I posted earlier, it’s very hard to make all the available evidence add up one way or the other. To resolve this, we need to discount some of the contradictory evidence/testimony we have; knowing which to discount is the tricky bit.

tl/dr… I’d say the jury is still out on this one, would be nice to be able to resolve it one way or the other.

It had to have happened so close to the start of the tour that there was no time to reschedule. I have some sympathy when people say you can’t play at all for weeks with a broken finger, but if it’s just the tip you’d get away with it, as opposed to damage further down, which would seriously restrict movement in the whole hand (yes, I do play guitar). An early date for the injury, in late 1974, doesn’t work because they surely would have scheduled the tour around that. Dates for the first leg of the tour weren’t announced until mid November 74, and tickets for the New York shows weren’t even on sale until 4th-6th January 75. Interesting how late everything happened, compared to these days. The second part of the tour wasn’t even announced until 22nd January, so it isn’t relevant here as it would have been arranged in full knowledge of Jimmy’s finger. The only tricky early venues to rearrange were probably the multiple dates in Chicago and MSG. We know they succesfully rearranged the St Louis gig for example.

Why do I still not warm to the idea that the injury happened before the warmup shows, ie between 6th and 10th January?

All the written testimony I’ve ever seen says the opposite, that it happened in the week after the warmups. Maybe oddly, I’m most convinced by the Richard Cole book, where he is unambiguous about this, saying it happened during the three days they spent in the UK after Brussels, ie 13th to 15th January. (page 247 of my UK paperback edition). Every other writer, reputable and otherwise, follows this chronology.

There’s a contempory Rolling Stone piece (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-durable-led-zeppelin-19750313) which puts the injury ‘the week before’ the start of the US tour, which to my eye places it post-Brussels although I accept you could read it as being ambiguous. I confess I’ve never seen the Melody Maker article with the ‘two weeks before’ reference, which is very interesting. Is there a scan of the full thing anywhere?

They flew to the US on 16th Jan, and did an immediate 'soundcheck' on 17th, which Jimmy describes in his photobook as ‘long and spirited’. Interesting phrase, given the context. I have an old Dave Lewis book (A Celebration, about 1992 I think) which says they used this soundcheck to work out how to play the set in the light of Jimmy’s injury. This implies a later date.

If it happened, say, between the MSG ticket sales and Rotterdam/Brussels (6th- 10th January), then I don’t see why those two shows weren’t cancelled. If you were in agony with a very recently broken finger and seriously considering whether you could go ahead with a major US tour, would you then immediately fly to Rotterdam to do an inconsequential (no offence to Rotterdam) warm-up show? No, I wouldn’t either.

Despite what some books might have us believe, Brussels is a good show, stage-rustiness aside. When I first listened to it I expected it to be awful, but was so pleasantly surprised I listened again, just to make sure I’d been paying attention. Yes it’s short (is the tape complete? Probably, yes), but they play well. Plant makes no mention of Jimmy’s finger when talking to the crowd, which he does do at every January gig in the US. Nor does he mention it in the BBC interview done at the time. Circumstantial I know, but if you listen to the Brussels tape for evidence of an injured or below-par Jimmy, I don’t think it’s there.

We don’t know what they did or didn’t play in Rotterdam the night before. A recording of that, or even some decent pics or sensible evidence of the set list, would be hugely helpful. Same goes for the first US gig, actually.

Would also be nice to know if there are any known rehearsal dates in early Jan 75, because Jimmy says somewhere (I can’t find the source immediately) that he did it on the way to rehearsals. I’ve always taken that with a pinch of salt, but would be an extra piece in the puzzle.

Does any of this matter? Yes and no. Yes, because I think resolving it helps understand what the band were up to in early 75, specifically with regard to the setlist. While I fully accept the ‘pre Rotterdam’ date may turn out to be right, the available evidence also allows an alternative view, which I quite like; that they initially trialled a radically different set list with no D&C, as they wanted to drop it (like they would do in 77). They get to the US and realise that a longer more recognisable show is needed. D&C is the obvious candidate, but Jimmy’s finger won’t allow it, and/or they haven’t rehearsed it, so they do HMMT instead. Same with SIBLY; I don't think they ever intended that to be part of the set at all in 75.

Whether 15 mins of HMMT is easier on the finger than 15 mins of D&C is a moot point; both contain elements that would be tricky without a functioning ring finger. I had a go, and wouldn’t fancy either. Maybe they just liked the idea of the change and then changed their minds back again after a couple of weeks. Maybe Jimmy spent Jan 75 working out how to do D&C in the comfort of his US hotel room, using HMMT to roadtest elements of it. Or maybe they had half an eye on filming some shows at some point in 75 and realised D&C needed to be in there. Who knows.

Does any of this matter, no… aside from the mind-boggling minutiae of it all, which I’m sure will leave most readers going WTF, Jimmy played damned well in early 1975, whatever the state of his finger and however badly it hurt. A hugely professional and focussed set of performances in January 1975, masked by a lack of decent recordings.

 

 

Ok. A lot to digest here and only a short time to respond. So I will cut to the chase.

There is no doubt in my mind Jimmy suffered a break in the tip of his finger. He wouldn't say it if it weren't so...Jimmy was never the type to make excuses for his playing. At least not in the 1970s. What really gets my goat are the people insinuating Jimmy was lying about his injury in 1973, that his cast was fake. Please...that is beyond ridiculous and not worth dignifying with a response.

I agree with you about the time confusion...it does seem likely that the injury happened right after Brussels. But I still think it is odd that there is no D & C or HMMMT listed in the setlist for either warm-up date. Given the nature of publishing, it is impossible to say with any accuracy when exactly Chris Charlesworth interviewed Jimmy Page. It was dated Feb. 1, 1975...two weeks from that date places it at around January 14 or 15. But by "two weeks from the start of the tour" did he mean the start of the U.S. tour or was he including the Rotterdam and Brussels shows as the start of the tour?

But here is where I disagree with you. You state you think the band was going to go forth in 1975 without "Dazed and Confused" or HMMMT, whether Jimmy broke his finger or not. I can't buy that for one simple reason...Jimmy's bow solo.

Jimmy's 1975 bow solo was much more developed and intricately designed with special lights and lazers than the 1973 tour. That had to require much planning and forethought in the months leading up to the tour. "Dazed and Confused" was definitely going to be a part of the setlist from the getgo...I am sure of it.

Crimson Avenger asks why HMMMT was played instead of D & C? Jimmy himself provided the answer when he said he couldn't bend notes. You can play the riff to HMMMT without having to bend notes. But the D & C riff is practically all finger bends and finger vibrato. It would have been much more painful for him to play immediately after the break than HMMMT.

So I reiterate...Dazed was going to be in the 1975 setlist all along but Jimmy's injury necessitated it being dropped and HMMMT rush-rehearsed as a replacement until Jimmy's finger healed enough to put Dazed back in the set for the New York dates.

As for all the rest of the discussion...I agree. I have long said "Custard Pie", "Wanton Song", "The Rover", "Ten Years Gone", "When the Levee Breaks" should have been a permanent part of the 1975 setlist. 

[Crimson Avenger]

11 hours ago, Strider said:

Ok. A lot to digest here and only a short time to respond. So I will cut to the chase.

There is no doubt in my mind Jimmy suffered a break in the tip of his finger. He wouldn't say it if it weren't so...Jimmy was never the type to make excuses for his playing. At least not in the 1970s. What really gets my goat are the people insinuating Jimmy was lying about his injury in 1973, that his cast was fake. Please...that is beyond ridiculous and not worth dignifying with a response.

I agree with you about the time confusion...it does seem likely that the injury happened right after Brussels. But I still think it is odd that there is no D & C or HMMMT listed in the setlist for either warm-up date. Given the nature of publishing, it is impossible to say with any accuracy when exactly Chris Charlesworth interviewed Jimmy Page. It was dated Feb. 1, 1975...two weeks from that date places it at around January 14 or 15. But by "two weeks from the start of the tour" did he mean the start of the U.S. tour or was he including the Rotterdam and Brussels shows as the start of the tour?

But here is where I disagree with you. You state you think the band was going to go forth in 1975 without "Dazed and Confused" or HMMMT, whether Jimmy broke his finger or not. I can't buy that for one simple reason...Jimmy's bow solo.

Jimmy's 1975 bow solo was much more developed and intricately designed with special lights and lazers than the 1973 tour. That had to require much planning and forethought in the months leading up to the tour. "Dazed and Confused" was definitely going to be a part of the setlist from the getgo...I am sure of it.

Crimson Avenger asks why HMMMT was played instead of D & C? Jimmy himself provided the answer when he said he couldn't bend notes. You can play the riff to HMMMT without having to bend notes. But the D & C riff is practically all finger bends and finger vibrato. It would have been much more painful for him to play immediately after the break than HMMMT.

So I reiterate...Dazed was going to be in the 1975 setlist all along but Jimmy's injury necessitated it being dropped and HMMMT rush-rehearsed as a replacement until Jimmy's finger healed enough to put Dazed back in the set for the New York dates.

As for all the rest of the discussion...I agree. I have long said "Custard Pie", "Wanton Song", "The Rover", "Ten Years Gone", "When the Levee Breaks" should have been a permanent part of the 1975 setlist. 

Hi, thanks for the reply. Sorry for the essay, but I like to be thorough! I've never said Jimmy was lying about this or 73, but we're on the same page there. If you were to ask me about the 2007 incident, I might raise a more cynical eyebrow.

I think  Jan14th/15th works perfectly! You make a very good point about the bow solo, I can buy that. But again you are right that it's odd that nether D&C nor HMMT appear in Brussels, which is at the root of my confusion. Whichever it is, that would seem to be high on the list of songs to play at a warm up show. Maybe they didn't take all the lasers/lights for the warmups, or maybe they were on a curfew for Brussels. What are your thoughts on the likelihood of the Brussels tape being incomplete? It is very short.

Re string bending, I'm not really disagreeing, but Jimmy is surely saying he couldn't bend strings with his ring finger. He bends plenty in those early shows. The D&C riff can easily be bent using the middle finger, in both the high and low register. I've just tried it again, and I actually prefer using my middle finger for that, lol. The faster heavy sections are more tricky, much as HMMT IMO is also hard on the ring finger because you can't avoid using it to hammer on for the main phrases. But that's OK, we know he played that one But only Jimmy knew what he could and couldn't do at that point, so I'm more than happy to agree with your D&C point.

Oh for more info about Rotterdam, or to have been a fly on the wall at the 17th Jan soundcheck. The more I think about Jimmy's description of it as 'long and spirited', the more I think that suggests an air of panic, given his general turn of phrase. He came through with flying colours of course.

 

 

 

[juxtiphi]

On 8/4/2016 at 5:04 AM, Crimson Avenger said:

Hi, thanks for the reply. Sorry for the essay, but I like to be thorough! I've never said Jimmy was lying about this or 73, but we're on the same page there. If you were to ask me about the 2007 incident, I might raise a more cynical eyebrow.

I think  Jan14th/15th works perfectly! You make a very good point about the bow solo, I can buy that. But again you are right that it's odd that nether D&C nor HMMT appear in Brussels, which is at the root of my confusion. Whichever it is, that would seem to be high on the list of songs to play at a warm up show. Maybe they didn't take all the lasers/lights for the warmups, or maybe they were on a curfew for Brussels. What are your thoughts on the likelihood of the Brussels tape being incomplete? It is very short.

Re string bending, I'm not really disagreeing, but Jimmy is surely saying he couldn't bend strings with his ring finger. He bends plenty in those early shows. The D&C riff can easily be bent using the middle finger, in both the high and low register. I've just tried it again, and I actually prefer using my middle finger for that, lol. The faster heavy sections are more tricky, much as HMMT IMO is also hard on the ring finger because you can't avoid using it to hammer on for the main phrases. But that's OK, we know he played that one But only Jimmy knew what he could and couldn't do at that point, so I'm more than happy to agree with your D&C point.

Oh for more info about Rotterdam, or to have been a fly on the wall at the 17th Jan soundcheck. The more I think about Jimmy's description of it as 'long and spirited', the more I think that suggests an air of panic, given his general turn of phrase. He came through with flying colours of course.

 

 

 

 

 

If we go by what Plant tells the audience after Moby Dick on Feb 3rd 1975 then he hurt his finger in England on the way to rehearsals and he blames the English train service saying "our train services aren't to good and Jimmy was trying to catch a train that was going without him and he caught his finger in the door and broke the tip of his finger"   

[gibsonfan159]

Alright, I'm trying to do some research on Page's technique in 75 and why he changed so much in 75. It's well known to most fans that he injured his ring finger before the 75 tour kicked off. I had always assumed he was a little "off" because he was still using his ring finger although it hurt like crazy. I also assumed the possibility that Page was taking painkillers which may or may not have led to a heroin addiction. Now I've discovered he substituted his ring finger with his pinky when playing. That's kind of mind blowing in itself. Rewiring your brain to play differently than you have been for a decade is pretty unbelievable, especially in just a few weeks. Using your pinky instead of your ring finger will definitely kill your fluidity, so it all kind of makes sense now.

What doesn't make sense is why Page was still doing it by the Earls Court shows. Shouldn't a fractured finger tip have been healed by then? I've noticed on the EC shows that he avoids using the ring finger for lateral movement, but still uses it for some quick runs vertically. That honestly sounds like a sprain or carpal tunnel (not being able to move it in one specific direction).

It's pretty evident in this part of Black Dog that he's avoiding using the ring finger. Playing this song with your pinky would be a nightmare.

 

[hummingbird69]

On 8/2/2016 at 10:04 AM, Crimson Avenger said:

 

Persuasive but not quite conclusive for me. I’m only a ‘doubter’ with relation to the precise date. I’m open-minded but still incline to a post-Brussels date.

2

When you say "precise date", are you talking about when he injured his finger?

 

On Feb3rd 1975 just before playing Dazed, Plant explains that Jimmy had a bit of an accident on the way to rehearsals and goes onto tell how the train system in England ain't too good and how he caught his finger in the door while trying to board.   So He certainly hurt his finger in England, I'd say sometime in  December.

Edited February 4, 2018 by hummingbird69

[Crimson Avenger]

17 hours ago, hummingbird69 said:

When you say "precise date", are you talking about when he injured his finger?

 

On Feb3rd 1975 just before playing Dazed, Plant explains that Jimmy had a bit of an accident on the way to rehearsals and goes onto tell how the train system in England ain't too good and how he caught his finger in the door while trying to board.   So He certainly hurt his finger in England, I'd say sometime in  December.

Hello! My favourite subject!

I'm pretty sure now that he must have injured it post-Brussels, ie mid January 75. Any earlier, and they would have had opportunity to reschedule those early dates.

You are quite right, Plant mentions the finger issue at almost every gig in the first part of 75. As far as I know, we don't know when those 75 rehearsals were.

The conundrum though is this; if Dazed was dropped in early 75 because of Jimmy's finger (the conventional story), then why wasn't it played in Brussels, when he hadn't injured it. See my long ramblings above.