Humbucker Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I must admit I'm really fed up with this topic :angry: :angry: SEVERAL PEOPLE, INCLUDING MYSELF HAVE TOLD YOU WHY TOSE FEEDBACKS OCCURED AND WHY IS IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPLETLY PREVENT THEM FROM HAPPENING!!! READ THE ANSWERS GIVEN AND DO NOT GIVE YOUR SMAL AND SELFISH OPINION!!!! GOD DAMN IT!! :angry: :angry: SHIT! Artur OK, don't throw your toys into the corner. RB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supraphonic Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I must admit I'm really fed up with this topic :angry: :angry: SEVERAL PEOPLE, INCLUDING MYSELF HAVE TOLD YOU WHY TOSE FEEDBACKS OCCURED AND WHY IS IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPLETLY PREVENT THEM FROM HAPPENING!!! READ THE ANSWERS GIVEN AND DO NOT GIVE YOUR SMAL AND SELFISH OPINION!!!! GOD DAMN IT!! :angry: :angry: SHIT! Artur read kevin shirley's (modern guitar magazine) review of the concert ,very informative from someone who is currently up with the status of live performance,take an educated view. its in the media blurbs ?. then you can weep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artur Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 OK, don't throw your toys into the corner. RB :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimMorgan Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 You idiots, such children, why cant you take a bit of constructive criticism, even then it is not aimed at the band (READ MY ORIGINAL POST). I am a lifelong Zeppelin fan, I am saying this because I care intently about LZep. If you think it was a great sound then good luck to you. MAYBE I AM THE ONLY ONE WITH THE BALLS TO SAY WHAT I TRUELY FEEL, AND THAT IS NOT DONE WITH ANY MALICE. I got the balls to say that I think it could have been better. The feedback drove me nuts everytime I heard. I am an audio engineer and if I had that much feedback I would be asked NOT to return. makes you wonder what Metallica sounds like live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zep41 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 it wasnt the mic feedback that drove me nuts, but the fact that I couldnt hear one actual NOTE that JPJ was playing?? Maybe its cause my seats were up high -- but there definitely were not NEARLY enough mids and too many lows on JPJ's bass guitar. Its like I knew a bass guitar was being played, but couldnt tell exactly what. Maybe for a rap or disco performance that kind of sub-bass sound is ok, but for Led Zeppelin? Absolutely inexcuseable. The same goes for the mics on Jason's toms --- too much low end and not enough mids. Going off the above thought, Jimmy guitar was just a bit too loud --- so loud in fact I was almost convinced he was using some kind of fuzz tone on his guitar the whole time but it turns out he obviously wasnt. That distortion I was hearing was produced by the PA speakers because he was turned up so damn loud! And I'm all for loud guitar, but given that the bass sound was mixed terribly (at least for us sitting up high) the guitar mix did not match and that even made it harder to hear the bass. Now I am sure on the floor the sound was much different. I heard a couple recordings from people on the floor and its better than what I heard in person. I just hope if they play again they dont use the same PA or incompetent engineer for that matter. For the Page Plant shows in 95 and 98 I remember the sound being about as perfect as you can get it -- why they didnt employ the same ideals to this show I dont know. Also, I agree with what someone said about your ears adjusting the first few minutes at a big show. Its happened to me a few times at bigger venue shows and I do have a very good ear for music and sound, at least I think I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross62 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 (the last 2 posts in this thread were my friend posting under my name, and although i agree with what he is saying, he went about it the wrong way, and came across in a very childish manor). Maybe it was different higher up in the rafters, maybe the sound didnt travel right, but from where i was standing it was allll good. What i dont understand is when you see an act such as zeppelin erform as well as they all did last night some peope have to find little things to moan about... was the electric atmosphere not enough for you? was the awesome performance not good enough for you? was the 90% of the time awesome sound not good enough? Why do you feel the need to find problems and try and bring zeppelin down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artur Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 If the gig's sound was so bad, how is it possible to have such great bootlegs live recordings?!!! :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelmon Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 If the gig's sound was so bad, how is it possible to have such great bootlegs live recordings?!!! :D :D :D Because microphones and recorders aren't subjective..... They have no opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot of the Storm Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Because microphones and recorders aren't subjective..... They have no opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artur Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Sure! Some microphones, including the recorders; are subjective because of their frequency response !! But if some microphones, as you Mr. Beautiful, are subjective, some other ones whichj are dedicated to live or studio recording are not!! Their frequency response is nearly flat... http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/specs-mk-ccm41s.html Kashmir recording is so far the Best one ever!!!! and it uses that small tiny microphone, astouding hu?!! :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigstickbonzo Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Can't you just enjoy the fact they actually played a stellar gig and sounded incredible. This thread is silly and people arguing for the fact are simply fools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelmon Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Sure! Some microphones, including the recorders; are subjective because of their frequency response !! But if some microphones, as you Mr. Beautiful, are subjective, some other ones whichj are dedicated to live or studio recording are not!! Their frequency response is nearly flat... http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/specs-mk-ccm41s.html Kashmir recording is so far the Best one ever!!!! and it uses that small tiny microphone, astouding hu?!! I'd still think the responses would be objective though....but let's let the microphones debate that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artur Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I'd still think the responses would be objective though....but let's let the microphones debate that.... NICE ONE!!!!!!!!!! I take it back home!! THANK YOU !! Artur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennethDisraili Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Man, I'm so relieved it wasn't the sound, because when I first saw this thread, I got really nervous!!! I wasn't fortunate enough to get a ticket to the concert and I am anxiously waiting for the DVD release much like Cream did when they did their reunion concert in May of '05 at the Royal Albert Hall in London, and from the DVD of that concert the sound is super, so I know the sound will be super also when the 02 Arena concert is released onto DVD!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allbettsareoff Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I must say that you sir you are an idiot! The sound was amazing! the men mixing the sound were Roy Williams (Robert Plant the last ten years) and Big Mick Hughes (Metallica). It started off with some feedback onstage not there fault (monitors) I was all over the arena and it sounded excellent everywhere I went. Try getting your ears cleaned because you sound like a jealous musician that never made it on your own so you have to shit on everyone elses experience. The show was great the band was great and the sound was great period. The best show of the century! You should get on your knees and thank God you were there, because from what I just read you should not have had the chance. There were so many others that woulld have killed to be in your place. What a shame that an asshole like you got to go! Allbettsareoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anita1967 Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I Agree Evster2012 ! ! The You Tube Videos have sounded good ! That was the Beauty of when Zeppelin performed in the 70's.... They were the only act.... and so the Soundcheck held.... So, ONE guy (sincerely) thinks there was too much Bass..... We must read all of the reviews, and weigh his evaluation in it all... never, ever too much thunderous bass. It is the backbone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerthat Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Holy cow, what a wild discussion. Setting aside the acrimonious tone and personalized insults thrown to and fro, there is a GREAT DEAL of misunderstanding, misinformation, ignorance and assumption in many of the posts here. The original and subsequent posts by GitGlenn (or whatever the handle is) rightly provoked negative responses because of the writer's unfortunate choice of words. While I cannot endorse GG's methods, it is very common for audience members who have high expectations for a performance, only to be disappointed by the sound at the venue, to be very hostile. And sometimes, rightly so. The idea, however, that he/she/it could "fix the sound in 10 minutes" is so arrogant, uninformed and presumptuous as to be embarrassing. I should clarify that I do concert sound for a living. I have quite a lot of experience at many different levels within the industry, from engineering to show production, and I am sympathetic to GG's complaint, however poorly presented. Nevertheless, the forum deserves what small clarification I can offer, so I shall try: First, the system at the O2 was NOT an “EV” line array, nor was Clair cabinets employed. The FOH board was NOT a Digico. The description of digital boards in the earlier post was incorrect on many general and specific technical levels. The short discussion about monitors touched on authentic issues but did so inexactly, as did the one or two posts about mics, etc., etc., etc. The system design begins with Meyer Sound (USA) MILO and MICA line array systems and 700HP subs with a Midas (UK) XL8 FOH digital console and a Midas Heritage H3000 monitor console. Meyer would have provided the system management electronics and software. Midas and Klark Teknik are located in Kidderminster, near Robert's home. He and Roy Williams - his FOH engineer - have used Meyer and Midas systems for many years now. Meyer Sound is located in California, owned by John and Helen Meyer, true pioneers in concert sound. Most of the rig was rented through Major Tom LTD in the UK. The system at the O2 was indeed operated by some of the best people in the live concert sound industry. As I mentioned before - and was rightly sited in one of the posts here - both Roy Williams AND Big Mick Hughes (Metallica) mixed at FOH, while Dee Miller mixed monitors. Lars Brogaard (Rolling Stones) as principle in Major Tom LTD also provided his expertise. Both Meyer and Midas provided system engineering by providing their international touring designers. It is true that Led Zeppelin, and Jimmy Page particularly, greatly influenced both the system design and implementation. Jimmy indeed auditioned systems and interviewed engineers before making certain decisions. Robert would not have worked without Roy looking after all aspects of his vox, simple as that. The problems encountered at this event were anticipated somewhat as the O2 does have challenging acoustic properties. Many of the biggest acts in the world have played there with mixed results, including Prince and Elton John. Jimmy was quoted prior to the Dec 10th event as being impressed with the system and mix at Elton's show and claimed he would be “speaking to his sound engineers”. No in-ear monitors were employed. Robert famously dislikes them, as many - but hardly all - older musicians do. Jimmy and JPJ likely reason their monitor preferences the same as Robert. There were, instead, many similarities between the monitor system at the O2, the one normally employed by Robert on his many recent international tours, and the basic designs used by Led Zeppelin dating back as far as 1973: floor wedges, side-fills and BIG cabinets hung above stage left and right. Stage levels would have been LOUD, always a problem for the monitor engineer regardless of how carefully prepared he or she might be. Speaking directly to the feedback heard primarily at the beginning of the show (although occasionally it reoccurred), this was likely a result of vocals in the monitors that suffered from one or several very errant or "hot" frequencies that have to be hunted down as the performance goes on. This is really fucking hard to do, especially under the gun and with little time to sort out if the issue is acoustic or mechanical or both. It can easily be presumed that the monitor engineer worked as hard and as fast as he could, drawing on many years experience, to eliminate the issue, probably via his many EQ options, and it simply took him longer than anyone - especially him - would have liked. But he did fix it. Addressing the complaints posted here about house sound, an old axiom from the theater can apply: many times, the "best" seat in the house can be the worst place to see and/or hear a show. Sound systems for large venues especially are designed for the overall size and acoustic properties of the venue, followed closely by the requirements of more specific areas. Certain compromises are inevitable, and the science and art of sound reinforcement certainly is ongoing. Acoustic properties at venues influence outcomes substantially, of course, and the O2 is one of the most difficult places to design and operate large concert sound reinforcement systems, as we have noted. Where a person stands (sits) also greatly influences their experience and therefore, perception of how successful the engineers were. I can guess that GG could have been at a disadvantage because of close proximity to where the subs were landed, and if so, was victimized by his "great seat". The engineers would have made every single attempt their education, training and experience would allow to anticipate and solve the enormous mechanical, acoustic, and production issues they faced at this event. It is very true that measurements made in an empty arena would betray how the system would perform once an audience populated the venue, but there are methods that anticipate some of – but not all - these factors. I know from personal experience what it is to take measurements, factor in absorption properties and be completely wrong. I am not saying these guys were wrong; I am saying that I have empathy, to say the least. It is also true that Led Zeppelin is both notoriously loud and averse to sound checks, something that does not help the sound-types. Add the enormous expectations WORLDWIDE for this event, and you may begin to have a sense for what all the participants were going through as they worked to fulfill everyone's expectations. The event was recorded by all accounts, either for an album or DVD or both, and it could have been tracked with a ProTools rig at FOH, but for an event of this magnitude this kind of arrangement is doubtful. There would have been an active stage split of some sophisticated variety going to a separate recording system placed separately from the house system. The video record was directed by Dick Carruthers, famous for his work on the Led Zeppelin DVD and consulting on the recent TSRTS DVD reissue. By most accounts, the event generally and the house sound particularly were successful. There were issues, and audience participants are entitled to their opinions and reactions. Those of us who have been in the monitor or FOH chair literally work day and night to get the best show for the audience and the performers. Sometimes there are issues, but everyone works like hell to solve them. No one deserves to be “shot”. Please reference the provided links for specifics on the house and monitor system: http://mixonline.com/news/meyersound-ledze...02arena-122707/ http://prosoundnewseurope.com/index.php?op...5&Itemid=27 http://www.unityaudio.co.uk/article.php?id=50&loc=news http://www.midasconsoles.com/pressreleases...d-Zeppelin.html http://www.meyersound.com/news/2007/led_zeppelin/ http://www.wholelottamilo.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion here, it must have taken ages to type all of that, let alone come up with such a coherent argument (something which has been lacking here). As the saying goes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and that has been shown here as people apply their limited knowledge, believing themselves to be experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJD Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Awesome post RogerTHat. My only issue is that I still feel the monitor engineer could have done more. It's the same frequency that starts feeding back during every song. As you said so well in your post, it's easy for all of us to Monday morning quarterback and there are an endless variety of cicumstances that lead to to technical problems none of us will ever know about but when i listen to the tapes it makes me crazy that nobody dialed out that frequency on a parametric eq the whole night, it just keeps feeding back. That said I wasn't there and judging from the Per, McTrainspotter and Clay sources I love the sound on the floor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverside Bluesman Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Cheers rogerthat. Thanks for taking the time to post. At last, someone who knows what they're talking about.... Unlike some of the louder voices here, I was there on the night (block 412, upper tier, directly in front of the stage) and from where I was the sound was very, very good. I'm a musician and a teach music tech and I didn't have reason to even think about the mix at any point. There were occasional moments of f/back, but I regarded these as parts of the performance. The band certainly seemed to. It's difficult to take some of the comments here too seriously when you discover the writer wasn't there but is in fact discussing the quality of the sound of a YouTube video which was recorded by somebody else waving a Nokia about directly in front of the main house stacks. Then again, maybe I was just sitting in the magic chair..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teedee Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 rogerthat is absolutely right (I'm also an engineer). Notching out a frequency isn't that simple and the monitor engineer would most likely have a rack of graphic EQ's not parametrics. The difficulty for him would be to identify not only the frequencies feeding back but also which specific speaker was the problem as each area would have its own EQ (floor wedges, sidefills, flown, backfill etc). If Mr Plant swung his mic past the rear wedge as the engineer is EQ'ing the sidefills he'd hear the squeak but not particularly know which speaker caused it if he didn't actually see it happen (he was looking at the graphic rack). Also if you take out too much then the tone of the monitoring will suffer and the artists will get a very dull mix, which they won't like as it will be very hard for them to hear what they need to. Most often it is higher and upper-mid frequencies that are the problem and these are the exact frequencies that a vocalist needs in their mix, take them out and you risk the wrath of the frontman! I've worked on shows where the monitor engineer can literally point the vocal mic into every speaker area without feedback but as soon as the vocalist appears they can magically induce feedback like no-one else. If they don't soundcheck this just compounds the problem and the arrival of the audience changes the ambience, temperature and humidity which all affect the sound in unpredictable ways. As far as out front sound goes, it's almost impossible to make everywhere sound good in any room, particularly large arena type spaces. We often get comments such as "the guitar's too loud and I can't hear the mandolin" to which we reply 'where are you standing?' " Oh, just in front of all those Marshalls!" Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Baloon Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I can't believe this conversation is still going on!!! I was at the gig... I heard the music... I saw a band I thought I'd never see again...and a few others I'd have paid a lot of money to see... and to be blunt... I think the detractors here should get a life!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Baloon Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Sorry Rogerthat I meant to add that I thought your conclusions are absolutely bang on. As an ex lighting eng. I have always had a major respect for sound guys battling with a building and as you so rightly say the monitor man can lead the life of a dog if he gets things wrong. But I still hold with what I said above... ... I think it's time to stop 'Ramblin' on' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zosotatt Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Rogerthat ... THANK YOU for the informed response to this thread; I was at the concert (on the floor about 1/3 of the way back), and from where I was standing...the sound was great, I could hear all members of the band equally well. During the first song, GTBT, the guitar volume was a little low but it gradually got turned up, and there were a few feedback episodes during this song especially that didn't completely resolve over the course of the evening. HOWEVER, this did not detract AT ALL from my experiece...I saw LED ZEPPELIN, they were great, and they were LOUD! ...Controlled distortion is part of the package, and a little feedback goes with the territory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelmon Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I think it's great to discuss this stuff and had we not, there might not have been the valuable views and facts spoken here. Thank's to all who contiribute their opinions and those who give objective points too..... Afterall it IS about the music of which the sound/delivery is paramount to the enjoyment therein. Those who diss the discussion are the ones losing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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