The Entourage

[Knebby]

Zeppelin had a large entourage, many of whom were with them for years and years. I thought it might be interesting to talk about some of them - so I'll start with REX KING.

Jimmy, Richard Cole, Rex, Knebworth 1979.

Rex came into the entourage as Bonzo's personal assistant because he was a friend of his. "When they were going on tour one day, I got a call, literally three to four days before the tour started asking if I wanted to go, and I went." Rex and Bonzo were pals and enjoyed travelling together - Rex was the only one to accompany Bonzo on his trip up to Newcastle to record his TV interview for Tyne Tees TV's "Alright Now" in March 1980; it was also Rex who drove him down from the midlands to Windsor on the day before his death in September 1980.

After Bonzo's death and the break-up of Zeppelin, Rex continued to work for Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, in addition to working on other tours including Yes, Neil Young, Eric Clapton, The Who, Bad Company, The Firm, Rod Stewart, and Elton John.He took a special interest in Jason's fledgling career and was spotted out with him a few times - including taking him along with Robert, Maureen and Carmen Plant to see Cozy Powell play with Whitesnake at Birmingham Odeon in 1982. He introduced Robert to his current manager Bill Curbishley after meeting Curbishley in Spain and hitting it off with him. He took Robert over to meet him several years later and the seeds of their business relationship were planted. Known as something of a ladies man, complaints were heard at the recording of Unledded that most of the girls in the front row (aside from Scarlet Page) were friends of his. Page and Plant apparently appreciated the view!

Interviewed around the time of Page and Plant, he explained that as their tour manager he was responsible for everything that production manager Roy Lamb wasn't. "I do everything on the daily running of the tour, all of Robert and Jimmy's stuff and all the bands stuff.."

Speaking about their rider, he said "Its absolutely minimal these days. A few basic things- finger foods, a few beers, soft drinks. Thers's no hard liquor or anything like that. Anybody can have what they want, but people don't particularly bother. The days when we used to go all out and have bottles of champagne, etc, they're all over for us."

Rex (centre background) laughing at Robert and the Oakland dancer

Rex continued to work with Robert when he resumed his solo career and has only recently moved onto other bands ( most recently Metallica) after they both decided they needed a change. Robert currently employs Dave Taraskevics, who he met through Peter Gabriel, as tour manager. Rex lives in Florida (as does Jason) but still works for Curbishley and Trinifold and is still friends with the surviving members of the band and entourage. He's a bit of a legend.

*Will try to move the other posts over as and when. *

[Knebby]

Denis Sheehan was Robert's personal assistant on the 1977 US tour. The jovial Irishman had previously been a roadie for Maggie Bell, who was signed to Swan Song ( Jimmy made a guest appearance on her 1975 album "Suicide Sal"). This was the first tour where all the band had their own personal assistants - Rex King was Bonzo's, Dave Northover Jonesy's , and Rick Hobbs Jimmy's.

Dennis joined the U2 entourage in 1982 and is still their tour manager to this day. Last year Bono brought him onstage in Las Vegas to toast him on his 59th birthday.

(photo by Ruth Barohn/U2log.com)

For real anoraks, Sheehan makes a small appearance in the movie "The Thing About My Folks" with Peter Faulk. He plays a tackle shop owner.

Edited November 22, 2007 by Knebby

[songbird]

[Knebby]

THIS news :-

LED ZEPPELIN tour manager CLIVE COULSON passed

away this week. A colourful character, Coulson

was directly responsible for forming BAD COMPANY,

uniting PAUL RODGERS, Mick Ralphs, Boz Burrell

and Simon Kirke, and goes down in history as the

only man to share vocals onstage with ROBERT

PLANT during a Led Zeppelin concert. A native of

New Zealand, Coulson made an early name for

himself as a singer on the Australian Rock

circuit, working with latter day RAINBOW and OZZY

OSBOURNE bassist Bob Daisley in the band MECCA. A

single featuring Coulson, by the band DARK AGES,

is noted for being the rarest and most expensive

Australian 7" single to date. Journeying to the

UK, Clive scored a job with Led Zeppelin's larger

than life manager Peter Grant and quickly rose

through the ranks to become Grant's right hand

man. Coulson handed over tour management of Led

Zeppelin to Richard Cole and concentrated on

assembling and managing Bad Company. Under his

reign, the band, signed to Zep's Swansong

imprint, scored massive commercial success in the

USA. Clive Coulson's last service for Peter Grant

was to act as coffin bearer for the big man's

funeral in 1995. In later years Coulson relocated

back to New Zealand, where he bought coastal

property in Raglan. He died of a heart attack.

Coulson leaves a wife and son, the latter's

godparent being Robert Plant.

.......from February 2006, prompted this post, which I copied from Mojo magazine in 2000:-

"They had promised themselves a break when they got back from America. Bonham and Jones went home to sort themselves out. But Plant was restless, and called Page about a remote cottage near Machynlleth, Gwynedd, which he remembered fondly from a childhood holiday. Page liked the idea. A surprise, maybe, but before Led Zeppelin's year of five-star suites he had been an inveterate solo traveller in India, America, Spain and elsewhere. Both a loner and a natural group leader, he once said: "Isolation doesn't bother me at all, it gives me a sense of security."

So, in late April, they set off for Bron-Y-Aur ("Bronraar"), hoping to recover some closeness with each-other - an echo of their first extensive meeting when Plant spent several days at Page's Pangbourne home playing records and talking music. But they did take along roadies Clive Coulson and Sandy Macgregor to take care of domestic matters.

The cottage was accessible only via muddy farm tracks. It had stone walls, no electricity, and no running water. "It was freezing when we arrived," recalls Coulson, now a beef farmer in his native New Zealand. "We collected wood for the open-hearth fire which heated a range with an oven on either side. We had candles and I think there were gaslights. We fetched water from a stream and heated it on the hot plates for washing - a bath was once a week in Machynlleth at the Owen Glendower pub."

Who did the chores then?

"Me and Sandy were the cooks, bottlewashers and general slaves. Pagey was the tea man. Plant's speciality was posing and telling people how to do things," Coulson laughs and then, lest anyone takes his Kiwi sarcasm for gospel, corrects himself. "No, everyone mucked in really. I wouldn't take any of that superior shit. They were wonderful people to work for, normal blokes, they weren't treated as Gods. Although Pagey was two people, one of the lads and the boss. And I'm not sure who got the job of cleaning out the chemical toilet..........."

They drove the tracks, walked the hills, met a biker gang of local farm boys and a bunch of volunteers restoring an old house (Page said, sorry, he'd never played guitar so he couldn't join in on Kumbayah.) They took evenings "off" at the pub and talked country matters with the farmers. Page even bought some goats and had Coulson ferry them up to Bolskine House (the mind boggles) in a Transit. This amply offset the truculence of a local butcher who snarled at them in Welsh and hacked their fillet steaks to mince.

With Page strumming and Plant tootling a harmonica, the songs came - songs which, according to Page, "changed the band and established a standard of travelling for inspiration, which is the best thing a musician can do." They wrote the rudiments of material that fed into their repertoire for years afterwards, sustaining the acoustic element: Over The Hills And Far Away (Houses of The Holy, 1973), Down By The Seaside, The Rover, Bron-Y-Aur (Physical Graffiti,1975), Poor Tom (Coda, 1982), and possibly others, as well as three songs which appeared immediately on Led Zeppelin III, That's The Way, the Neil Young -influenced Friends and Bron-Y-Aur Stomp.

Begun the previous autumn as Jennings Farm Blues, Bron-Y-Aur Stomp's hoedown knees-up captured the arcadian idyll they craved. Momentarily eschewing sex and Vikings, Plant sang to his dog.

Bron-Y-Aur was a strange thing for the two young stars to do, but it worked. "The great thing was there was no motion." Plant said later, "just privacy and nature and the beauty of the people there. [As a lyricist] I'm finding myself now. It's taken a long time, a lot of insecurity and nerves and the "I'm a failure" stuff." Of his relationship with Page, he said that "in the beginning I held myself a long way off from him", but now the barriers were coming down, as Page later confirmed to writer Ritchie Yorke. "Living together at Bron-Y-Aur , as opposed to occupying nearby hotel rooms, was the first time I really came to know Robert"

A cosmic and enriching experience for the roadies too, then?

Coulson guffaws. "Not really. It was a job for us. Me and Sandy were just totally fucking bored."

R.I.P. Clive.

[Knebby]

John "Magnet" Ward was an old friend of Robert's from the midlands. He worked at Jennings farm for a while and then started going out on the road with the band.

Onboard the Starship with Jimmy and Robert

A notorious prankster and joker, the hugely popular Magnet was apparently named for his ability to attract women. He went on to work with Deep Purple, and was immortalised in their song "Highball Shooter" on the "Stormbringer " album in the lines

" A Magnet brought you to me, told me your name was Jo, He said you liked my music and you really dug the show."

He was tour manager for Whitesnake for some of their earlier tours, the last one being the 1981 "Come And Get It" tour.

Robert brought him in to tour manage alongside Rex King on his first solo tours of the US, UK, Far East and Australia. After this he left the music business, and settled down with his wife and kids. He remains good friends with Robert and his family.

Keeping Robert in his place.

(There are other pics of him floating around but I can't put my hands on them all today so I'll come back with them.)

[brspled]

[myledzep]

Thanks KB for bringing this thread back!

[Knebby]

B P Fallon - there's so much to be said about BP (Beep or Beepy) I hardly know where to start, so its probably best just to quote directly from his own website:-

WHO THE FUCK IS BP FALLON?

"He's brilliant, though I'm not sure what he does"

Phil Lynott on BP Fallon, talking to Melody Maker, 1976.

BP Fallon is to rock'n'roll what a stamp is to an envelope.

Renaissance man, submerged in music all his life.

Irish. Discjockey on the radio since 17 years old. Photographer and writer. Rock'n'roll sage. Publicist and media guru to Led Zeppelin and T.Rex and Tone Loc. Played tom toms on Whole Lotta Love live, described by Marc Bolan as "Purple browed Beep" in the T.Rex hit Telegram Sam.

No spring chicken, this bald creature has traversed rainbows.

Mimed bass guitar with John Lennon on Top Of The Pops, worked at The Beatles' Apple Records where one of his jobs was testing Paul McCartney's grass.

Press Officer at the infant Island Records, representing Traffic, Joe Cocker, Free, King Crimson and Jimmy Cliff.

Among the backing vocalists on U2's Pride (In The Name Of Love). Transformed Bob Geldof into pop star and Ian Dury into Blockhead. Played harmonica on the Johnny Thunders album So Alone alongside two Sex Pistols and Chrissie Hynde, Phil Lynott and Steve Marriott.

Has photographed everyone from Jerry Lee Lewis to Public Enemy, Emmylou Harris to Iggy Pop.

Author of three best-selling books - words and photography - including U2 Faraway So Close, his adventures when he joined U2 on their legendary global Zoo TV tour as DJ, Guru And Viber, deejaying live to 1.8 million people. Wrote, presented and with Bill Kates produced Zoo Radio, broacast in US on 600 radio stations and in Europe by the BBC. Presented ABC TV's In Concert, hosted and deejayed ABC TV's New Year Special featuring Keith Richards.

Lives in New York and Dublin. Broadcasts regularly in Ireland on RTE and TodayFM, including for the last two years TodayFM's BP Fallon's New Year's Eve Wipeout with guest deejay Sinead O'Connor.

As Fallon And Alan has been deejaying live in New York and Detroit with Alan McGee [see 'Alan McGee on the legend of King Boogaloo'] and in July toured Japan with Alan, wowing audiences in Tokyo and Osaka.

Described in Hammer Of The Gods as "a visionary imp", described by Vogue magazine as "a gentle wispy sorcerer", described by Bono as " a rock'n'roll creature. The only white black man I know apart from Bob Dylan".

King Boogaloo, The Duke Of Earl, BP Fallon.

www.bpfallon.com

Edited November 22, 2007 by Knebby

[Aquamarine]

Hey, you managed to retrieve this great thread--thanks, Kneb!

[Knebby]

Doing my best guys! Have only retrieved my posts though, so please others add what you can!

[Knebby]

Its probably a little bit cheeky to call him part of "The Entourage", but it feels timely to say something about Ahmet Ertegun.

Photobucket appears to be playing up at the moment so I will have to come back with pics, but anyway, here goes.

From Narm.com ( and with their mis-spelling of his name: -

Atlantic founder Ahmet Ertugen was introduced to Jazz and R&B at a young age, and together with his brother Nesuhi, eventually amassed a collection of some 20,000 Jazz and Blues recordings. Ertugen formed a partnership with Herb Abramson of National Records and, with $10,000 borrowed from his dentist, launched Atlantic Records in 1947.

As Atlantic grew from literally a one-room operation into one of the most successful music companies in the world, the label released recordings that have had profound effects on the course of modern music.

Ahmet Ertugen, co-chair and co-CEO of the Atlantic Group, holds the distinction of being the longest-standing record label founder still at the helm of his company.

Atlantic released its first singles in 1948, and scored its first hit in 1949 with Stick McGhee’s “Drinkin’ Wine Spo-Dee-O-Dee.” Then came artists like Professor Longhair, Big Joe Turner, Ruth Brown, and Ray Charles—and the label was a fully established success.

In 1955 Ahmet’s brother Nesuhi joined Atlantic and made a series of records by the likes of Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane and Charles Mingus.

By the mid-1950s, producer Jerry Wexler had joined Atlantic as Ertugen’s partner, and with the help of The Coasters, LaVern Baker, and Clyde McPhatter And The Drifters, the predominantly R&B label helped usher in Rock ’n Roll.

The Coasters were one of the first Black vocal groups to cross over to the largely white Rock ’n Roll audiences, and in 1958, Bobby Darin’s “Splish Splash” established Atlantic’s place in the Pop market. In the 1960s, with the popularization of Black music, Atlantic went back to its roots with Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, Percy Sledge, and Aretha Franklin. But Atlantic didn’t ignore the world of white Rock ’n Roll either, signing Cream; Led Zeppelin; Crosby, Stills and Nash; and The Rolling Stones.

Sold in 1967 to Warner Communications, Atlantic continued its concentration on Rock ’n Roll. Today, Atlantic is still helping us define and express ourselves with the music of artists such as Tori Amos, Collective Soul, Hootie And The Blowfish, Lil’ Kim, and Jewel.

A long-standing member, Atlantic has positively influenced NARM since the early ’60s. The Ertugen brothers, Ahmet and Nesuhi, were jointly recognized with the NARM Presidential Award in 1973.

“When I first started the label, I thought we’d make records for two or three years and that would be it,” Ertugen said. “We never imagined we would be able to make a real living out of doing what we loved so much.”

This is from an interview he did in Performance magazine.

"What were your impressions on signing Led Zeppelin to Atlantic Records?"

"We were very, very hot on the group from the beginning becaus we both knew the excellence of the playing of Both Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones. We were very happily surprised with the other musicians because they were equally great. Robert Plant is certainly one of the outstanding singers in the history of rock 'n' roll> He's a scholar of rock 'n' roll and blues music. He probably knows it better than anyone I know - the whole library of rock and roll music."

"What do you remember about first seeing Zeppelin perform?"

"We had already signed them. They were the most dynamic band I had ever seen. They had a presence onstage like no other. They were very different from The Who, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles or Cream - the big British groups that preceded them. They had a mystique, an aura all to themselves. They didn't do interviews. They didn't want any singles released from their albums. They weren't interested in television. Plus there were their antics on the road, some of which, but not all, were exaggerated. They look back at those days with sentimentality, nostalgia for a different time and period when crazy things were going on. The late 60s and 70s were very different times, the time of revolution, of revolutionary ideas. Young people revolted against traditional establishment values. They were in the forefront of that, always on the cutting edge.

The music they made had sorrow, pathos, happiness and a great deal of love."

"How would you characterise Jimmy Page and Robert Plant as people?"

"They are dissimilar - two totally different people - each a personality uopn themselves. They have their own charecteristics, sensitivities, opinions and way of life.

Robert is more outgoing , outspokenand has a dynamic personality. He's very charming. He has a really flamboyant personality on and off stage. He's thoughtful and sensitive.

Jimmy Page is quieter with more of an artisitic temperament. He is deeply thoughtful, has a sweet personality, is very friendly and has a great musical inspiration, which is reflected in his character. He has the soul of an artist, sometimes unpredictable.

They both love to have a good time- their one common trait - and I have a great time with them both.

One night in Barbados we went to a nightclub with a whole group of friends. Later, some people dropped out , and there were just a few of us, including Jimmy. We went to a nightclub for locals, not tourists, that had a little reggae band. I asked Jimmy if he felt like sitting in and he said that he would love to. We went over to this band , and this was at the very height of Led Zeppelin's popularity, and I said that this was Jimmy Page. They sort of nodded and said "So what?" I said "You know Led Zeppelin?" They didn't know who Led Zeppelin were. Jimmy said "Can I borrow your guitar and play a little bit?" The guy said "No man! I don't lend my guitar to nobody man!" We finally got them to let Jimmy play a little bit, and, of course, they were astounded. They never heard anybody play guitar like he did. Nobody in the world plays like Jimmy does."

"Do you have a favourite Led Zeppelin concert?"

"Oh God! My favourite Led Zeppelin concert was a rehearsal to which they weren't allowing anybody in the theatre ( Hammersmith Odeon) in London. One day, their manager called and said "The boys have agreed to let you and your friends ( I was going out and having dinner with some friends) come and listen to the rehearsal." That was a great thing. My friends were beside themselves. They couldn't believe they were actually going to see Led Zeppelin. There was nobody else there except the crew. They said we could come up and sit on the stage. They put me right in front of the blasting speakers. I had jet lag. I stayed up the night before and hadn't slept. I had several drinks before dinner before going there. Right in the middle of the third song, I fell asleep. I dozed off and apparently was snoring a little bit. Robert put the microphone right in front of my nose and that's when I woke up."

"What are your memories of Peter Grant?"

"That's a book. One of his artists said to me "He must be the cleanest person in the world because whenever anyone called, they would say 'Oh, Mr Grant is in the bathroom. He'll call you when he gets out.'"

We all loved him. He redefined the meaning of management. He gave Led Zeppelin their mystique, their aura, what they believed in. He was a wonderful man, but toward the end of Led Zeppelin, he became a bit difficult. He was the best manager around."

Please add pics if your server is working, otherwise I'll be back later. There is probably a lot more to say about Ahmet too - so chime in if you have things!! My fingers are too tired now!

[Knebby]

Anyway - I'd thought maybe I would come back with Eddie Kramer. Ok, it may be a bit of a cheek (as for Ahmet) to call him part of Zeppelin's 'entourage', but we'll just stretch the definition and make him part of the Zeppelin family legend. I think most of us would be happy with that. So here goes.

South African-born Kramer moved to London aged 19 where he began to encounter Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones regularly during their session days. He became quite close with John Paul, who first told him about Led Zeppelin when Kramer visited him at home in 1968. "The tape he played me just sat me on my ass" he said.

Kramer first saw Zeppelin playing at the Fillmore East, and subsequently Jimmy invited him to work with him on Led Zeppelin II. The band had recorded various songs on 8 track in different places around the world and Jimmy told him some of them were really horrendous sound-wise and needed re-mixing. Kramer did the job over one weekend in New York.

He and Jimmy had a "mutual admiration" following Kramer's work with Hendrix and worked closely together. He said that during "Whole Lotta Love" "....where everything is panning and going bananas, it's a combination of Jimmy and myself just flying around on a small console twiddling every knob known to man."

"There are lots of mistakes on Led Zeppelin II, especially on many of the guitar parts, but no-one really cared that much about fixing them. Jimmy is known more for his audacity than for his accuracy. He is a stylist in the true sense of the word. Jimmy would rather go for overall feel than for the finesse of the total accuracy of the solo."

"You have to remember, rock 'n' roll should not be perfect by any means: it's not concieved that way. Mistakes make rock very human. Jimmy and myself are very similar in that we're both much more in favour of feel than perfection. I don't think perfection and feel go hand in glove. Led Zeppelin was and probably still is to this day a law unto themselves. One must always remember that."

"In spite of his often sloppy playing, Jimmy was an excellent producer, and we complemented each-other in terms of producer to engineer. He was very demanding in the studio - which was great, because I'm very demanding too. Jimmy is a very driven person, and he was always very picky and self-critical. He demanded as much out of himself as he did out of everyone else."

Kramer and the band "fell out" for a while after a row in Electric Lady Land studios over a Zeppelin roadie's dumping of food on the floor during the recording of the third album, according to Kramer, but he was back on board for Houses of The Holy, Physical Graffiti, The Song Remains The Same, and of course is credited on Coda.

Production credits

Selected production credits:

1971: Carly Simon – Carly Simon

1971: Jimi Hendrix – Cry of Love

1972: NRBQ – Scraps

1973: NRBQ – Workshop

1973: Stories – About Us

1974: Spooky Tooth – Mirror

1975: Kiss – Alive!

1976: Kiss – Rock and Roll Over

1976: Mott the Hoople – Shouting and Pointing

1977: Kiss – Alive II

1977: Brownsville Station – Brownsville Station

1977: Kiss – Love Gun

1978: Ace Frehley – Ace Frehley

1981: Michael Stanley – North Coast

1982: Peter Frampton – The Art of Control

1983: Fastway – Fastway

1983: NRBQ – Tapdancin’ Bats

1987: Anthrax – Among the Living

1987: Ace Frehley – Frehley’s Comet

1987: Fastway – Trick or Treat

1989: Ace Frehley – Trouble Walkin’

1990: Robin Trower – In the Line of Fire

1993: Kiss – Alive III

1994: Buddy Guy – Slippin’ In

1995: John McLaughlin – Promise

1996: Carl Perkins – Go Cat Go!

1996: Buddy Guy – Live: The Real Deal

1998: Brian May – Another World

Engineering credits

Selected engineering credits:

1967: Jimi Hendrix – Are You Experienced?

1967: Jimi Hendrix – Axis: Bold as Love

1967: Traffic – Mr. Fantasy

1968: Jimi Hendrix – Electric Ladyland

1968: Graham Gouldman – The Graham Gouldman Thing

1968: Family – Music in a Doll's House

1968: Blue Cheer – OutsideInside

1968: Traffic – Traffic

1969: John Mayall – Empty Rooms

1969: Led Zeppelin – Led Zeppelin II

1969: The Nice – Nice

1969: John Mayall – Turning Point

1970: Jimi Hendrix – Band of Gypsys

1970: The Nice – Five Bridges

1970: Led Zeppelin – Led Zeppelin III

1971: Curtis Mayfield – Curtis/Live!

1971: John Sebastian – Four of Us

1971: Humble Pie – Performance Rockin' the Fillmore

1972: John Mayall – Jazz Blues Fusion

1973: Peter Frampton – Frampton's Camel

1973: Led Zeppelin – Houses of the Holy

1973: Derek and the Dominos – In Concert

1975: Led Zeppelin – Physical Graffiti

1976: Peter Frampton – Frampton Comes Alive!

1982: Led Zeppelin – Coda

His photo site

http://www.kramerarchives.com/

This site tells a lot more about what he has been up to in the last few years:-

http://www.studioexpresso.com/profiles/EddieKramer.htm

Much of the above came from an interview in the July 1986 issue of Guitar World.

Edited November 22, 2007 by Knebby

[ninelives]

Oh happy happy joy joy! Thank you KB for bringing this back. I was just thinking how it was a bit sad to have some of the really great threads (this one as an example) lost on the old board. Now it's not

[eskimoblueday]

Yeah, thanks for putting in the work to bring this back, KB. Much appreciated.

[Aquamarine]

Wish I had more pics to contribute--here's Robert and Ahmet again

and there's BP in the middle with the snake (never did figure out who the other guy was)

and round the other side of Robert

[ninelives]

Thanks for posting those Aqua. I especially love the one of him with Ahmet. Such great smiles from both of them...

[irg82]

Great thread to recover!

I'll help bring others that are important here.

[GetTheLedOut]

Thanks to all for saving some of the good old material from the old site. I hope Sam archives it after the site goes offline just in case.

[Jim]

Nice post! Thanks Knebby!

[ro_a]

I missed this thread the first time around. Content spectacular. Thanks.

[Stargroves Tangie]

Great thread Knebby!! Thanks for bringing it back!

[swansea]

Fascinating stuff! Great thread, Knebby, thank you!

[ledded1]

[Del Zeppnile]

Great thread Knebby!

I need to get upstairs more often.

My favorite Peter Grant pic

[bonzo's beat]

what ever happened to Mick Hinton, bonzo's roadie. i know that after the group disbanded he was paid off and he bought a cottage in devon. did quit the music biz. Ray Thomas, Jimmy's roadie and rick Hobbs, jimmys personal assistant, do they still work for jimmy Page. anyone know.

This one's for Knebby to find out i think.