The infamous "Stairway" backmasking...

[kashmiran]

Frankly, I think the whole thing's a load of bull. I've listened to it and although the messages are there, they're so vague that it has got to be a coincidence.

[Evster2012]

Where's TC aka: Bongman? We used to battle this one but good on the old site!

My feeling is that if someone suggests it's there, your mind will pick out what you're expecting to hear. Personally, I think it's a load of crap. I could go into the whole Lucifer the Lightbearer vs the Biblical Satan, The "Devil", and its relevance to Jimmy's practice of Thelema, and how it doesn't add up. Furthermore, it's Robert's voice, and Robert isn't into that stuff.

Oh all right:

Satanism

First off, we need to separate the Christian Satan, the Devil who rules hell, from the Judaic Lucifer/Satan, and then from LaVey's Church of Satan. In Judaism, there is no hell, no judgment, and Satan is not the "Devil". The Hebrew root of the word Satan means "accuser". He was not the enemy or opposer of God, but rather a sort of Prosecuting Attorney who tests people for God. Witness the story of Job. That said, "Satanism", as in the whole "powers of evil" cult thing, which came to popularity in the last few decades, has little to nothing to with the Biblical Satan, be he angel or demon.

Thelema

Jimmy (and only Jimmy), was/is a Thelemite, not in any form a Satanist. Thelemites do in fact perform rituals to invoke spirits, but for purposes of goodness.

Thelema ("THEL-ay-mah") is a Greek word meaning "will" or "intention". It is also the name of a new spiritual philosophy which has arisen over the past several hundred years and is now gradually becoming established worldwide.

One of the earliest mentions of this philosophy occurs in the classic Gargantua and Pantagruel written by Francois Rabelais in 1532. One episode of this epic adventure tells of the founding of an "Abbey of Thelema" as an institution for the cultivation of human virtues, which Rabelais identified as being squarely opposite the prevailing Christian proprieties of the time. The sole rule of the Abbey of Thelema was: "Do what thou wilt". This has become one of the basic tenets of Thelemic philosophy today.

Although touched upon by various prominent visionary thinkers in the following few hundred years, the seeds of Thelema sown by Rabelais eventually came to fruition in the early part of this century when developed by an Englishman named Aleister Crowley. Crowley was a poet, author, mountaineer, magician, and member of the occult society known as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. In 1904, while traveling in Egypt with his wife Rose, Crowley became inextricably involved in a series of events which he claimed to inaugurate a new aeon of human evolution. These culminated in April when Crowley entered a state of trance and wrote down the three chapters of 220 verses which came to be called The Book of the Law (also known as Liber AL and Liber Legis). Among other things, this book declared: "The word of the law is Thelema" and "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".

Crowley spent the rest of his life developing the philosophy of Thelema as revealed by the Book of the Law. The result was a voluminous output of commentary and works relating to magick, mysticism, yoga, qabalah, and other occult subjects. Virtually all of this writing bears the influence of Thelema as interpreted and understood by Crowley in his capacity as prophet of the New Aeon.

One theory holds that each chapter of the Book of the Law is associated with a particular aeon of human spiritual evolution. According to this view, Chapter One characterizes the Aeon of Isis, when the archetype of female divinity was paramount. Chapter Two relates to the Aeon of Osiris, when the archetype of the slain god became prominent, and the world's patriarchal religions became established. Chapter Three heralds the dawning of a new aeon, the Aeon of Horus, the child of the Isis and Osiris. It is in this new aeon that the philosophy of Thelema will be fully revealed to humanity, and will become established as the primary paradigm for the spiritual evolution of the species.

Some of the essential elements of belief in Thelema are:

"Every man and every woman is a star."

This is usually taken to mean that each individual is unique and has their own path in a spacious universe wherein they can move freely without collision.

[Bong-Man]

Where's TC aka: Bongman? We used to battle this one but good on the old site!

I don't think I'm up to a satanic discussion today....not enough coffee. However, I'm never afraid to go on record as saying....."I do believe."

Hope everything is well with you Evester.

[Evster2012]

I don't think I'm up to a satanic discussion today....not enough coffee. However, I'm never afraid to go on record as saying....."I do believe."

Hope everything is well with you Evester.

Haha, thanks! Nice to see you man! Yeah, we're doing good! So, another round (when you've had your coffee, of course?)

[Xtazy]

I personally think that those subliminal messages are crap. Tell me anything you want bout rock groups being satanic or whatever, but not about these backwards messages. If some people like to listen to music from the ending of the song to the beginning of it, I don't care, but gimme a break, I want to play it the regular way.

[Evster2012]

I personally think that those subliminal messages are crap. Tell me anything you want bout rock groups being satanic or whatever, but not about these backwards messages. If some people like to listen to music from the ending of the song to the beginning of it, I don't care, but gimme a break, I want to play it the regular way.

Well, Jimmy's dabblings are rooted in truth. I have friends who witnessed him doing rituals in hotel rooms and such. But the question is whether they were in fact "Satanic", or simply "esoteric". In all my studies I've never found this to be the case. And again, it was Robert's voice, and he never to my knowledge took any such interest in the occult. So Jimmy pasted together a montage of Robert's vocalisms, spun it about, and created a message to Satan? That seems quite a stretch.

[TypeO]

OK, my .02

First, i don't think backwards is the same thing as subliminal.

Frankly, I can't see any way something that's recorded backwards can be heard in any way when it's played forward.

I do, however, believe LZ (and many other bands) used true subliminal recording, i.e., tracks recorded above and/or below the threshold of conscious hearing. This would be picked up subconsciously and have an impact on the listening experience. Achilles' Last Stand is the most obvious example of what I used to call "master tracking," the phrase I came up with to describe the subliminal recording.

I believe everything from complicated esoteric riffs that the conscious mind wouldn't be able to mesh into the overall tune are layered on subliminal tracks to enhance the total tune-experience. Something like how you can have a stray, unrelated thought pattern in one part of your mind while you're carrying on an actively involved conversation, and that stray thought will somehow lend to the overall impression of the conversation experience.

I also believe very primitive ancient rhythms and cadence structures are also incorporated - again, below the conscious level - to lend to the hypnotic quality of some of the tunes.

Whether those rhythms/cadences have any basis in ancient rituals, Satanic or otherwise, is another discussion, as I - #1 don't make as many distinctions between what is Satanic or something else; and #2 don't think Robert or Jimmy or any of them would outwardly profess any personal affiliations with anything of that nature.

In other words, just because someone says they don't believe something, doesn't mean they don't, just that they don't care to share that particular knowledge about themselves.

I've actually had this "theory" about LZ ever since I first listened to Presence in 1977.

[MadScreamingGallery]

I remember when LZ IV was released and the STH backmasking "Satanic" message rumors ran rampant (that in addition to all of the rumors about hidden pictures on the album covers - goats heads with horns, etc.). We destroyed one copy trying to play and replay STH backwards in order to hear the messages but we heard nothing. To this day, I personally doubt that those so-called "Satanic" messages ever existed.

Well, Jimmy's dabblings are rooted in truth. I have friends who witnessed him doing rituals in hotel rooms and such. But the question is whether they were in fact "Satanic", or simply "esoteric". In all my studies I've never found this to be the case. And again, it was Robert's voice, and he never to my knowledge took any such interest in the occult. So Jimmy pasted together a montage of Robert's vocalisms, spun it about, and created a message to Satan? That seems quite a stretch.

Ev, you and I know some of the same people from back in the day and I have heard the same things about the rituals. Personally, I never believed that Jimmy was involved in anything Satanic or evil nor did I ever believe that he practiced talismanic magick and/or alchemy for anything except for the good - for the good of his and LZ's musical performances.

I posted this in another thread: an excerpt from Brad Tolinski's interview with Jimmy Page for Guitar World December 2008

GW: There was always a certain amount of speculation about your occult studies. It may have been subtle, but you weren't really hiding it.

Page: I was living it. That's all there is to it. It was my life--that fusion of magick and music.

GW: Your use of symbols was very advanced. The sigil [symbols of occult powers] on Led Zeppelin IV and the embroidery on your stage clothes from that time period are good example on how you left your mark in popular culture. It's something that major corporations are aggressively pursuing these days; using symbols as a form of branding.

Page: You mean talismanic magick? Yes, I knew what I was doing. There's no point in saying more about it, because the more you discuss it, the more eccentric you appear to be. But the fact is--are far as I was concerned--it was working, so I used it. But it's really no different than people who wear ribbons around their wrists: it's a talismanic approach to something. Well, let me amend that: it's not exactly the same thing, but it is in the same realm. I'll leave this subject by saying the four musical elements of Led Zeppelin making a fifth is magick unto itself. That's the alchemical process.

[Xtazy]

And what's the point in making these subliminal messages? How do I benefit if I stuff people's minds with satanic bullshit? I mean, it's complicated to create those messages anyway, why bother?!

[Evster2012]

Ev, you and I know some of the same people from back in the day and I have heard the same things about the rituals. Personally, I never believed that Jimmy was involved in anything Satanic or evil nor did I ever believe that he practiced talismanic magick and/or alchemy for anything except for the good - for the good of his and LZ's musical performances.

I posted this in another thread: an excerpt from Brad Tolinski's interview with Jimmy Page for Guitar World December 2008

Thanks for the quote MSG. I think it really says it all, right from the mouth of the man! I'm glad he wasn't cagey about it, and the fact that he said to speak more about it would appear eccentric.

Most people who obsess about this topic are naive to the realities of occultism. They assume such things are inherently Satanic, which simply isn't true. It's like saying a native American doing a rain dance is a devil worshipper. It's just another way of looking at the world and harnessing its energies. They think to use any book other than the Bible to get in touch with the higher power is evil. Buddhists would disagree. Oh well, we're moving into Aquarius. The Piscean, puritanical era is winding down. Nothing against those of faith. Nothing at all! Hell, I used to live in a monastery! It's just that after two thousand years of war and death in the name of "love thy neighbor", people are starting to expand spiritually again. A new growth spurt is on the horizon. And it isn't evil. Sometimes you have to go back to go forward. Get back to those primal energies and harness them. We've lost that to a great degree. Grab that divining rod and find the wellsprings!!

Haha. Sermon over.

For now.

[slave to zep]

ev, you are so knowledgable and interesting. thankyou .

[Bong-Man]

Evester....Before we start lovingly bitch-slapping each other over this topic, I feel there is something we need to get straight. I don't believe any of this crap. I no more believe that Crowley was dictated "The Law" in a dream any more than Jesus Christ rose from the dead after three days. I'm pretty much a non-believer when it comes to what I refer to as "hocus-pocus crap". That doesn't mean that I don't respect your spiritual beliefs or those of anyone else. What is important is what Mr. Page believes about Aleister Crowley and his teachings.

The reason I feel the need to make the above statements is that you seem to somewhat believe in Crowley's spiritual powers as he presents them. You've made some posts in the past about the dangers of dabbling with this stuff, it's not for amateurs, people can get hurt....etc. That is certainly your right to believe, and you are not alone. It isn't my goal to make fun of you or anyone else that believes that such powers exist. I just personally don't believe in any of it. "Ashes to ashes...dust to dust"...pushing up daisies is a worthy ultimate goal....those are my feelings on the subject of spirituality, after-life...etc.

However, all of that said, if I had to choose yes or no as far as the back-masking message being there in one verse, and one verse only....based on the writings of Crowley and Jimmy's actions throughout his career, and having listened to it, I do believe it is there.

[SunChild]

Interesting discussion. I can only say to Bong-man, you'll see it when you believe it. That's how it worked for me. For example, how strange that there were three things I've seen this week that put Magick into a larger context for me:

MSG's posting of this quote:

"Yes, I knew what I was doing. There's no point in saying more about it, because the more you discuss it, the more eccentric you appear to be. But the fact is--as far as I was concerned--it was working, so I used it."

Hard to argue that it wasn't working for Page.

Daily Buddhist Wisdom sent this e-mail yesterday:

"Intention is the core of all concious life. It is our intentions that create karma, our intentions that help others, our intentions that lead us away from the delusions of individuality toward the immutable verities of enlightened awareness. Conscious intention colors and moves everything." ~ Master Hsing Yun, "Describing the Indescribable"

Which is another way of saying "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" (intention = will).

On Sunday I saw the best bumper sticker ever:

"God is too big to fit in one religion"

As for backwards masking, well... Not only is it Robert's voice, they're his lyrics. FAIC, there is no so-called "Satanism" involved there, but I think the idea of bakward masking of those lyrics is just plain silly. For one thing the words it supposedly says make no sense.

(Some would argue they make no sense forwards, but, that's their problem. )

However, conciously doing things backwards is a Magickal technique, so that at least begs the question. Which one verse are you referring to?

[Bong-Man]

However, conciously doing things backwards is a Magickal technique, so that at least begs the question. Which one verse are you referring to?

“. . .train himself to think BACKWARDS by external means, as set forth here following.

(a) Let him learn to write BACKWARDS. . .

() Let him learn to walk BACKWARDS. . .

© Let him. . . listen to phonograph records REVERSED

(d) Let him practise speaking BACKWARDS. . .

(e) Let him learn to read BACKWARDS. . .”

(Crowley, Aliester. Magick:Liber ABA, book four, 1994 Ordo Templi Orientis ediiton, p. 639)

[Knebby]

Keep sucking on that bong mate.

[Bong-Man]

Keep sucking on that bong mate.

LoL.... I knew it wouldn't be long until the defender of the faith showed up. Like moths to a flame.

[Knebby]

And did the winking emoticon not alert you to the fact that I knew you were expecting me?

[Styrbjorn]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh! God, make it stop!

[Otto Masson]

Oh, a congregation of the old STH backmasking debate team?

Hi! I'm here, folks!

[Stargroves Tangie]

When I first heard about this with STH, I wanted to check it out for myself: I recorded STH onto a cassette tape and spliced it back into the case so it would play backwards. I listened to it and the first couple of listens I didn't notice anything unusual. Then one of my friends told me the line is something like "here's to my sweet Satan", so I played it again and listened real close, and then I heard something that sounds like those words, but to me it doesn't sound very clear and definite.

Of course, if no one had told me what to listen for and about where in the song it is, I don't think I would've recognized it as such.

The only other line I could sort of "hear" something in the song was what sounded to me like "there's no escaping it" (I believe it's 'it makes me wonder' backwards). This is what it sounded like to me, but to somebody else it might sound like something else.

And no, I don't think this was done intentionally- purely coincidental.

[Suz]

The Piscean, puritanical era is winding down.

FINALLY! I am really sick of those fuckers.

[Bong-Man]

An article from the Q Magazine Zeppelin Special Edition (2003).....

Jimmy Page was a rather different entity. With the Vietnam War raging and the 60's dream faltering, the associated mysticism of the time grew darker. "Jimmy Page was checking everything out," recalls Pamela Des Barres. "He was a young gorgeous guy who could do anything he wanted."

By the time of the 1970's, Page had time and the resources to pursue his occult interests properly. He peppered the inside sleeve of the band's fourth album with runes, opened the Equinox occult bookshop in London in 1976, and built the second largest collection of Crowley artifacts in the world."He had an incredible collection of capes, wands, and boots." recalls BP Fallon, "but it was tucked away. It wasn't a case of Roll up, roll up, come and see." Page topped this by purchasing the ultimate Crowley artifact: the magus's former residence Boleskine House, beside Loch Ness in Scotland in 1970. In an attempt to restore Boleskine to its condition at the time of Crowley's rituals, Page even engaged Satanist Charles Pace to paint murals. "It's not an unfriendly place when you walk into it," said Page at the time, "it just seems to have this thing....I'm attracted by the unknown."

Prefiguring the experimentation of the 60's, the occult excited new interest in the late 19th century. Aleister Crowley was a child of his time. Born in 1875 to rich parents from a strict Christian cult, the Plymouth Brethren, Crowley claimed his parents drove him to dissention, to become a teenage rebel a century early. Crowley claimed to have been visited by an Egyptian spirit who dictated "THE BOOK OF THE LAW" to him in a vision in 1904. In essence, this cherry-picked from the occult menu (specifically Rosicrucianism, Egyptian myth, and yoga) to create a new "religion". Crowley called it "Thelema" : "the science and art of causing change in conformity with will". While this did involve "magick" (Crowley spent a year trying and failing to make his image in a mirror disappear), it was more to do with personal liberation. Crowley's Thelemite maxim was "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" and with the spirit telling him "To worship me, take wine and strange drugs. Lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture," Crowley's religion was essentially a ritualisation of orgiastic sex and drug taking. As such, Crowley was a Satanist in so much as he took the idea of Lucifer as agent of intellectual and spiritual freedom, rather than the personification of evil. Just to blur the issue, score himself some free publicity and annoy his parents, Crowley liked to call himself "The Great Beast 666".

"I do not worship the devil," Page told Rolling Stone. "But I am interested in magic. I feel Aleister Crowley is a misunderstood genius. Because his whole thing was liberation of the person, of the entity, and that restriction would foul you up, lead to frustration which leads to violence, crime, and mental breakdown." Crowley's libertarian credo chimed perfectly with the 60's libertarian philosophy Led Zeppelin were living to the full in their sex and drug-fueled heyday. What's more, Crowley's attitude towards personal achievement and fulfillment must have appealed to the super-successful Zeppelin in an often anti-materialistic age. Indeed, Page had "Do What Thou Wilt" inscribed into Led Zeppelin III's run-out groove. "When you've discovered your true will you should forge ahead like a steam train," said the guitarist. "If you put all your energies into it there's no doubt you'll succeed because that is your true will." Hardly a pact with the devil, but certainly evidence of unapologetic ambition.

According to BP Fallon (Zeppelin's publicist), Page kept his occult interests private. "He believed his philosophies and it shaped how he acted, but it wasn't directing every iota of his life. I don't know how far he took it. I never observed him conducting any rituals. In my experience he didn't even practice yoga. He certainly wasn't sacrificing virgins at Midnight....He couldn't find any !

Michael Des Barres (married to Pamela from 77-91), formerly vocalist with fellow Swan Song band Detective and a friend of Page's told Zeppelin biographer Michael Yorke : "Like an idiot I was dabbling with the Crowley thing at the time. I used to go down and see Jimmy at Plumpton Manor and he'd pull out Crowley robes, Crowley's Tarot deck, and all of the Crowley gear he's collected. I thought it was great - it was all so twisted and debauched."

Was it just dressing up box stuff then ? Pamela Des Barres believes Page sought a decadent frisson. "I think Jimmy liked to fancy Crowley was all involved in the darkness. He was curious about the dark aspects, he carried his whips around and he like to inflict a little damage on willing girls." Nevertheless, both B.P. Fallon and Pamela Des Barres both believe Page was sincere in his interests. "I think Jimmy really believed the Crowley stuff," says Des Barre. "He gleaned a lot from it. It helped create his aura and the mystique . Sure there was an element of play-acting, flapping around those big halls in Crowley's cape. But you don't buy someone's Castle [sic] if you're just fucking around. Besides, he's a notorious tight wad, he had to be totally into something to pay for it !"

The rumors of Satanism did not end with Led Zeppelin's demise. In the 80's, a prominent American Baptist used his radio pulpit to preach that "Stairway to Heaven" carried subliminal backward messages. Then, in April 1982, the California State Assembly played a tape of the song backwards in public session. Stairway - along with songs by The Eagles, ELO, and Lynyrd Skynyrd - was accused of containing satanic messages.

Certainly there's no denying that if you play "There's still time to change the road you're on" backwards it sounds like "Here's to my sweet Satan". A joke then ? Or mere coincidence ? Plant found the accusations foul - "The intentions of that song were so positive". On a more practical level, Stairway to Heaven engineer Andy Johns has declared the backwards recording process impossible.

"A lot of the mystical stuff was a pose," says Pamela Des Barres. "The myth was self created to make themselves look intriguing." It certainly worked. Perhaps, though, it's best to defer to Robert Plant for the final word. As the singer told Q magazine : "It's all crap that devil stuff, but the less you said to people the more they would speculate. And we never said fuck-all to anybody. The only deal I think we made was with some of the girls high schools in San Fernando Valley."

[Bong-Man]

Jimmy Page in the 70's

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." "Although I don't agree with everything he said he was a visionary. I don't particularly want to go into it because it's a personal thing and isn't in relation to anything I do as a musician. Apart from that I've employed his system in my day to day life. ~ Jimmy Page

Jimmy Page Now

"I was living it. That's all there is to it. It was my life--that fusion of magick and music."

"I was not content to believe in a personal devil and serve him, in the ordinary sense of the word. I wanted to get hold of him personally and become his chief of staff."

Aleister Crowley, The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, chapter 5

(1929; revised 1970).

"train himself to think backwards by external means, as set forth here following. (a) Let him learn to write backwards. ( Let him learn to walk backwards. © Let him constantly watch, if convenient, films and listen to records reversed."

- Magick in Theory and Practice....by Aleister Crowley

"They are also the eternal secrets of the Great Lamp of Wisdom: there is the light, and the oil, and the lamp itself."

(Comment: The Lamp of Wisdom is what guides the soul on its journey to the summit of the Great Mountain of Hermetic Attainment. The Lamp is held in the `hand' of our True Self who is represented in Tarot by "The Hermit". The Hermit holds this Lamp on high that we may comprehend the threefold nature of the Great Work to illumine our Path and make bright our ways.)

"Study thou well this threefold teaching of Hermes-Mercurius- Thoth, Thrice-greatest-Master of the Opus of the Sun; and so shalt thou accomplish the Great Work of the Aeon."

(Comment: The Hermit is the image of Hermes-Mercurius-Thoth, as one who has attained the Great Work and who now stands ready to illumine all others below Him on the Path with the threefold teaching of the ages. Yet only those who are truly fit for His Teaching can recognize His Wisdom. The unfit cannot recognize His Wisdom, since they are blind and stupid, unable to see or comprehend the obvious, the Light which is even now upon them.)

"Ours is the Sevenfold Path of Initiation: thou shalt transmute the base lead into the subtle Aurum Solis by rising on the Stairway of the Heavens in thy Secret Laboratorium on earth. Here is the Excellent Way! The steps of the Stairway are seven ; the Laboratorium is Our Holy House of Song and Our Holy Rose Garden, which thou knowest so well. Yet to those who are vulgar, it is a secret even though they themselves possess it.")

(1)

There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold

And she's buying a stairway to heaven

And when she gets there she knows if the stores are closed

With a word she can get what she came for

Woe oh oh oh oh oh

And she's buying a stairway to heaven

(2)

There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure

And you know sometimes words have two meanings

In a tree by the brook there's a songbird who sings

Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven

Woe oh oh oh oh oh

And she's buying a stairway to heaven

(3)

There's a feeling I get when I look to the west

And my spirit is crying for leaving

In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees

And the voices of those who stand looking

Woe oh oh oh oh oh

And she's buying a stairway to heaven

(4)

And it's whispered that soon, if we all call the tune

Then the piper will lead us to reason

And a new day will dawn for those who stand long

And the forest will echo with laughter

And it makes me wonder

(5)

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow

Don't be alarmed now

It's just a spring clean for the May Queen

Yes there are two paths you can go by

but in the long run

There's still time to change the road you're on

(6)

Your head is humming and it won't go in case you don't know

The piper's calling you to join him

Dear lady can't you hear the wind blow and did you know

Your stairway lies on the whispering wind

(7)

And as we wind on down the road

Our shadows taller than our soul

There walks a lady we all know

Who shines white light and wants to show

How everything still turns to gold

And if you listen very hard

The tune will come to you at last

When all are one and one is all

To be a rock and not to roll

Woe oh oh oh oh oh

And she's buying a stairway to heaven

First, i don't think backwards is the same thing as subliminal.

Frankly, I can't see any way something that's recorded backwards can be heard in any way when it's played forward.

You are correct, and it has been scientifically proven that anything presented to you backwords or subliminally cannot effect or modify your behavior in any way, shape, or form.

[SunChild]

FINALLY! I am really sick of those fuckers.

Ah Suz, I love you, man, you crack me up. We just may have to get married, after all.

Oh, a congregation of the old STH backmasking debate team?

Hi! I'm here, folks!

Hi Otto!

Which side you on?

[SunChild]

Thanks for all that Bong-man. You've done your homework for someone who doesn't dabble in belief.

"Yet to those who are vulgar, it is a secret even though they themselves possess it."

Here is a picture of an adept in flowing robes weilding a wand and performing a ritual:

And people put Aliester Crowley and Jimmy Page down.