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woz70

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Everything posted by woz70

  1. I very much doubt the Knebworth shows had a beast of a machine running 2" tape for every camera. If they did we'd have seen a lot of different/unseen footage and angles than was on the bootleg releases. All we actually got was the best (from JP's point of view) bits of the 4th and the 11th edited together. The difficulty they had finding even one machine to play back that format in 2002 is testament to the amount of machines that were actually made to record on 2" tape, in full colour - i.e. not many! Here's a link to people who still transfer this stuff: http://www.dcvideo.com/ql-obsolete-2-inch-quad.php First look at the size of these machines (BIG) then read the 'Features' section : "Good quality analog video. Mono audio (although some third generation machines had stereo capability). Had a cue channel/time code track. Costly to purchase, operate, and maintain. Required skilled operators." The fact that the tapes actually survived in a playable form from 1979 to 2002 is miracle enough. I don't really think Zep would have hired more than one of those monsters to record the Knebworth concerts.
  2. Correct. For both Knebworth & Earls Court only the feed to the big screens was actually taped - not the individual footage from however many cameras there were. I suspect just one full colour video machine was expensive(and temperamental) enough to hire back then, let alone four or five. The cuts between shots on DVD are either what the video editor did in real time on the night, or between footage of the same song on different nights. You can spot this most easily in 'Going to California' where Roberts hair magically changes position from one cut to the next.
  3. The twelve string neck was standard tuning, the six string was tuned EADADE (basically the usual Rain song tuning, but a tone higher) - probably because you only have to change the tuning on 2 strings (G to A, and B to D) rather than four! Pretty cool actually, because it brings The Rain Song into a key related to TSRTS so that Robert can hold that great long C over the Dm7 that ends TSRTS over the A5 that opens the Rain Song - a rather lovely minor plagal cadence. Sorry for the geek-out there. TSRTS was played entirely on the 12 string neck, Rain Song entirely on the 6 string neck.
  4. The Black Beauty was never found (why do you think this discussion is here?) - the one from Page/Plant was a Gibson Custom shop model. Jimmy found it too heavy and Justin Hawkins from The Darkness ended up with it. http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/darkness-and-jimmy-page-black-beauty-0823-2012.aspx
  5. You'll need a lot more than just a vault to be opened..... You'll need a time machine and a cameraman too. That footage is missing for a very good reason.
  6. http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2013/may/15/ginger-baker-beware-mr-baker-interview A general all-round nasty piece of work. It's no wonder he was in a band with Jack Bruce - two peas in a pod. Apparently just about everybody he's worked with has been rubbish, according to him. He only ever surfaces to do this sort of thing when the cash is running low. Given his attitude I'm surprised anyone would actually want to work with him.
  7. Awesome, and it makes sense too. Obviously RP stopped using his rune first, closely followed by JPJ.... but does anyone know the first gig they appeared and when they stopped using them? Just as an aside.... it's amazing that they were playing gigs of that size with little or no onstage monitoring. It's no wonder RP shagged his voice - he must have been really belting it out just to hear himself with the PA so far from him and that wall of sound coming from behind.
  8. Dunno if this one's been covered but I've been unable to find it using a search.... After the fourth album was released Jimmy & Bonzo made pretty much constant use of their runes/sigils up until at least the end of the '77 tour - Jimmy on his speaker cab and Bonzo on his kick-drum skin - but John Paul & Robert seem to have ditched them pretty early on (although JPJ now has many of his instruments decorated with his, and up until recently Robert still had a feather displayed somewhere on his website). My question is: how did JPJ & RP display their runes onstage (if at all), and how long did they use them for?
  9. I have absolutely no doubts he will be back in a new guise at some point - let's just hope his attitude has mellowed when he returns. (He used to be called Taro, let's see what's next). His attitude was a real shame and so utterly pointless - these forums are so interesting and so many people here share their information and knowledge freely so we can all learn stuff. I can't understand people who have to resort to abuse if they don't get the answer they want (even though they've asked 50 people the same thing and still got the same answer!), or someone has a different (or even the same ) opinion as them.
  10. If you'd actually READ what I'd said you'd have seen about 15 posts ago that I agree with much of what you say. I spent a lot of time and space explaining stuff in a pleasant and balanced way. All you can do is say 'I disagree with EVERYTHING you say' and now I'm the one having a pointless debate? Really? I wouldn't have had to keep explaining stuff if you'd had the decency to read it and understand it the first time I said it. I've treated you with balance and respect and you've blown me off as being a 'fanboy'. Nice. The Kevin Shirley comment is childish. He was chosen by Page. Live with it. In respect to all/any of the releases we have covered - If the rest of the band thought it was shit it wouldn't have been released. It's out there. It's all we have. If you don't like it don't listen to it. Now can we get back on thread? PLEASE??? or are you also one of those guys who just HAS to have the last word. If so, be my guest. My sincere apologies to Steve A Jones should any more of this conversation continue. I'm stopping right here.
  11. This is the ONLY argument. Jimmy is the producer and the holder of the Zep flame. HE makes the choices, production-wise. If he didn't put the effort into these releases they wouldn't happen. PERIOD. Go back and read what I have said properly and you will see that: I AGREE WITH YOU but I am also able to understand other people's viewpoints as well, which you appear to think mean nothing compared to your opinions. A little humility and empathy goes a long way. Now..... Ask Mr. Jones a Led Zep mystery question so that we may all be a little wiser when he replies and get this fascinating thread back on track.
  12. I have provided arguments as to why this has been done - basically Jimmy is the producer and what he says goes, and ain't nothin' gonna change that whether you like it or not. As I have stated quite a few times, I don't necessarily agree with some of the decisions Jimmy has made regarding the live releases, but I understand why he has done them, from a number of different points of views. I understand your point of view and I have sympathised with it. If you actually tried reading my posts rather than skimming them and generally disagreeing you might have picked that up by now. I have not disagreed with you, but I have shown the ability to see another side and reasons why things are as they are, and I have tried to convey those to you in simple English. You, my friend, are starting to come across as a bit of a troll, no offense intended.
  13. I really don't understand what you're disagreeing with, but if you feel the need I'm happy with that. I've agreed with you on some points (maybe you missed that???) so if you disagree with everything I'm saying it seems you can't agree with yourself either. Basically it seems that you hate the bootlegs (you disagreed with everything I said, remember. Maybe you didn't actually read it all.....) and you hate Jimmy's production on the official releases? Is there anything you do like about what we've been discussing? Just curious.
  14. I'm not claiming that they've been acclaimed. All I've said all along is that they are what they are, and that's all we've got as an official release. If you prefer the bootlegs stay with them. I really enjoy HTWWW, and I think it sounds awesome - especially the acoustic set. It's not badly mixed, it's got dynamic range (quiet bits and loud bits) the drums thump you in the guts on decent stereo. It's not for audiophiles, but then it's a recording of a live performance, so that doesn't really matter. Yes there are edits, some for aesthetic reasons and some for copyright reasons, but they don't stick out like a sore thumb like some of the edits on TSRTS do, and frankly about 90% of the people who bought and listen to HTWWW are unaware of any edits and love it for what it is - damn good music. For me it is what it is, what any recorded music is, a decent representation of the sound the band is making, but unfortunately without the atmosphere of actually being there and feeling the music. I think it sounds great, energetic and exciting and that's good enough for me. The fact that we can no longer hear Roberts voice fail to hit a note in Immigrant Song, or that some missed cue has been tidied up is not really relevant to me. What does it really matter? It has obviously detracted from your enjoyment (probably because you already know the boots inside out and find it jarring to hear any changes), and that's sad. But you've still got the boots, so go back to them, forget about HTWWW or TSRTS and let everyone else who does enjoy it, enjoy it! But on the same note, stop clamouring for Jimmy to release more stuff because you'll probably bitch about it if he does. As I said before, you can't have it both ways. He will not allow anyone else to produce Zep material, so you either need to accept that if and when anything more is released it will be 'tidied' (for want of a better word), or stop asking for more and enjoy what the bootleggers have for you. From what you've said so far, I reckon the bootleggers have the edge.
  15. The producer oversees the whole project from start to finish. A hell of a lot can be done to change the way things sound during both the mastering, and especially the mixing process, and it's the producers vision of the project that shapes how this will be. Mixing covers not only balancing all the elements within a recorded track but how each of those elements are processed and treated before they even get to being mixed together (compression, gating, equalisation and other sound shaping processes etc..) in order for them not only to sound their best, but to fit within the producers concept of how they should sound. Generally the guy doing the mixing will produce far more than one mix of a track, and then will bow to the producers choice and continue working in the direction that the producer - not the mixing engineer - wants to progress. This is true for any recording, be it live in concert, a band playing live in a studio, or a band playing their parts separately (overdubbing!) in a studio. The producer then takes the mixed track to the mastering engineer, who will also have his own ideas about how it should sound, but has the benefit of the producer who has seen the project through from start to finish and who is able to guide the mastering engineer into realising the producers vision of the track. Without production skills you would have three or four different peoples ideas of how a track should sound imposed on it and generally you end up with a mess that nobody is happy with (been there, done that). That's pretty subjective, and depends on the source, so I'm not prepared to get into a 'well I think that sounds better' discussion. Some bootlegs are horrific, some are awesome. The sound at most gigs is pretty poor for the first three or four songs anyway, unless you're REALLY lucky. I have yet to hear many bootlegs that are better sound quality than an official release in my opinion. I fully appreciate you have your own opinions, and as I have said before, you are fully entitled to them whilst appreciating that I am entitled to mine.
  16. Mixing a live album is generally regarded as far more difficult than mixing a studio album, but I'm afraid the same processes apply and production skills are very much needed. If you think it's simply a process of bringing up the faders and that's it, you're very sadly mistaken. If that was the case Jimmy wouldn't have even bothered with multitracking the performances and would have flooded the market with the soundboard recordings in his possession rapidly putting all the bootleggers out of business! I totally agree with the less is more approach to editing (I reiterate that the only commercially available live recording of Zeppelin with overdubs is the original release of TSRTS), but frankly Jimmy is the producer, period. His decisions are his to make in that role and that is that (and generally I can understand the choices he has made, aesthetically). With all due respect, If you don't like his choices then you have the choice as a consumer not to listen to it, simples. For example, I personally loathe the new version of TSRTS, so I choose to listen to the original release (with all it's inherent faults). edited:(I've just done a bit of research, and Made In Japan seems to be regarded as a bit of a rarity for live recordings in that there are no edits.)
  17. And your point is? Different stroke for different folks. Purple are not Zeppelin. We have what we've been given, based on the choices made by either the band, or Jimmy in Zep's case, and the producers in Purple's case (can't remember who gets production credit for Made In Japan). Jimmy has been an editing fiend from the day Led Zeppelin first stepped into the studio. (TSRTS version of Dazed and Confused wouldn't have fit onto vinyl without some editing!) If you're a Zep fan that's just something you have to accept - without Jimmy's production decisions they would not have been what they were and you have to just take the good decisions with your definition of the bad ones, bearing in mind that those decisions are inextricably linked with the way the band has been perceived. It's hard, but you can't have it both ways!
  18. Ha! Very true. But the record company still has to agree to release it too and will analyse the commercial viability of a release. Don't forget they're only in it for the money..... Three versions of essentially the same product would only be of interest to a niche market in the eyes of the number crunchers, and they have to weigh up production cost against acceptable profit margin. I don't disagree with your take, I'm just trying to get people to see the larger picture. At the end of the day (TSRTS re-release aside... grrr) what has been released has been the best of the best, from the best. If it hasn't been released, there's generally a pretty good reason for that. Us lot aren't worried about warts'n'all, but Led Zeppelin has always been about the best they could do at the time they did it, and in order to maintain the mystique and legend of the band for new and future fans they really aren't going to release anything that could be construed as sub-par.
  19. Wouldn't make much sense from a record company point of view - Three concerts from three concurrent days with pretty much the same set list? That really only makes sense to the supreme fans who will buy everything. Commercially it wouldn't make a great deal of sense flooding the market with overly similar product. At the end of the day music is still business (sadly). Also, all three surviving members have to agree to any release, and nobody's going to spend time and money polishing something that won't get unanimous approval. Er.... sorry to SAJ if I appear to be derailing this thread.
  20. I didn't check on this and you are probably right for Knebworth. Pretty sure EC was 16 track. Mistakes happen though. It's live and you don't get second takes!
  21. Whether you like that approach or not is immaterial. I don't think there is a single commercially available recording by Led Zeppelin that does not make use of editing a performance to make a finished product to some degree (and I include the studio albums in this, probably more so than the live recordings!) Also, I think you're confusing overdubbing with editing, and this can be a bit misleading for others reading this. Overdubbing is recording brand new parts over an existing recording. This was absolutely not done for the 2007 release of TSRTS. TSRTS is an edit, or a montage, where different performances have been spliced together to make a whole They made it clear that the reasons for the edits in TSRTS were to match the audio as closely as possible to the visuals. I think, and many agree, that they should have taken the original approach to TSRTS and had separate audio for the actual film and the CD soundtrack. However, this would probably have meant paying Kevin Shirley twice - once to mix to viisuals, and again to have an audio only mix, so this may have been an issue in the decision process. It would have been a better solution all round, but it didn't happen.
  22. I'm only quoting what I remember from what Jimmy himself has been quoted as saying, and he gave TYG as a specific example. (On a side note, as a guitarist I personally would not use the same amp for a Les Paul and for a Tele as there is so much difference in tone between the two guitars - If Jimmy used a separate amp for the Tele, that would explain why there was no feed. Don't forget he had a stack of amps & cabs up there and nobody really seems to know for certain how he had them wired. Also bear in mind they only had 16 tracks of audio to play with, between 7 and 10 of which were probably used solely for the drums! Add in multiple keyboards, Bass Guitar and Vocals.....) There would obviously been personal preference amongst the band members to take into consideration, both from an audio and video perspective. (Personally I reckon they thought Roberts voice was in better condition at Knebworth than EC)
  23. I doubt very much that the audio of the bootleg came from the multitrack - it was a most likely a soundboard source recorded straight to stereo from the engineers desk. Roberts voice has that horrid harmoniser on it ( blech) which would have been added live and not commited to multitrack.
  24. I bow to your knowledge. I do stand by my comments regarding the video though - If three nights of audio were commited to tape, I'd reckon three nights of video were too. Others will have better info.
  25. Thanks Steve. I'd like to make one more point for the 'why don't they release the entire show' brigade for EC and especially Knebworth - Jimmy (and Kevin Shirley I believe) has stated that there were some songs that he would loved to have included on the DVD, but that the audio was incomplete or unusable for whatever reason. One case in point being 'Ten Years Gone' from Knebworth, where Jimmy's guitar simply didn't make it onto tape - a cracking performance, but completely unsalvageable.
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